[Closed] "£59 for a mudguard?! A mudguard that will only fit a limited range of forks?! "

😀

Isn't it just going to clog as it's so close to the wheel in really sticky clumpy mud.

Not really a STW product as you have to go fast enough to clean the mud off the tyres I guess 😯

I'm a self-confessed mudguard fetishist.

I saw of the prototype ages ago:
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/whats-this-front-mudguard

I like the idea of a front "hugger" mudguard, rather than big Moto-X one mounted in the crouwn, but £59 really does take the p!ss for a piece of plastic.

late april fools isn't it?

I'll stop ranting on the front page now.

My initial thought was "that won't fit on my Thors" due to the double-arch, then realised how naff it was being model specific.

Then I remembered, Marzocchi use to produce their own specific mudguard by Acerbis. The difference was it only cost £20 new, and looked a whole load better.

[url= http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3557/3818595758_afba0a75e8_b.jp g" target="_blank">http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3557/3818595758_afba0a75e8_b.jp g"/> [/img][/url]
[url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/ir_bandito/3818595758/ ]DSC_0509[/url] by [url= http://www.flickr.com/people/ir_bandito/ ]ir_bandito[/url], on Flickr

£59 for a mudguard... 😆

I think I'll refrain from snapping one of these up any time soon...a piece of innertube and four zip-ties is probably slightly less efficient, but at 1/100th the cost I'll stick with it for now. If I want to make it look less of a bodge then I'll make sure I'm neater with the scissors and will slap a Hope sticker on it too.

That's almost as hilarious as the cost of tyres these days.

looks good but the price is a joke

fully made and assembled in the UK - that's what you are paying for. I guarantee if it were made in china it'd be half the price, everyone would be raving about it, and in the next breath complaining about the 'death of british manufacturing'...

fully made and assembled in the UK

That may well be the case, but I'm pretty sure it's makeable and assembleable within the UK for a good deal less than £59.

fully made and assembled in the UK - that's what you are paying for. I guarantee if it were made in china it'd be half the price

At half the price it would still be a rip off!

And it would still be a product trying to be the solution to a problem that has already been solved quite effectively, by another MUCH cheaper alternative... Namely the Neoguard... Or if you're (quite rightly) tight, an old bit of inner tube and some zip ties!

i have something similar that i fully made and assembled out of the back plastic cover of a black and red notepad.

hoops over and zip ties to the fork legs, a bit like those mucky nutz ones but both sides and longer.

cheap it was. pretty much £0.

I mean, let's face it - a front Hope hub is pretty much designed and built entirely within the UK (okay, so bearings will be sourced elsewhere), and is only about £50.
I reckon there's a lot more to that than a bit of plastic you attach to a fork.

But why price yourself so far out of the market, when ultimatly its a piece of plastic with some bolts? What does it matter that its made in the UK? Apart from the mold-tooling, its not complex, so ideal for sending to the far-east. Knowing that I'm paying for a Brit to take one of these out of a machine and put it in a bag, rather than a foreigner isn't enough to make me "buy British".

Have a look at Chain Reaction. The most expensive mtb front mudguard is the Topeak [b]Defender[/b] (classy name huh?) at £25. Fugly, but less than half the price of the Dfender.

I'll be amazed if I ever see more than 10 of these on the trails (that aren't freebies given to journos/sponsored riders). Maybe thats why they need the high price. Not the best bsuiness plan IMO

I reckon there's a lot more to that than a bit of plastic you attach to a fork.

why?

plastic tooling is expensive.

Would like to Brant's take on this 'design' and 'business model', seem to remember something being said about celebrity designers by someone the other day 😉

[img] [/img]
Now [b]that's[/b] fugly.

a front Hope hub is pretty much designed and built entirely within the UK (okay, so bearings will be sourced elsewhere), and is only about £50.

The tail edge of the mudguard is further from the tyre than the middle.
It will act as a funnel, clog with mud and stop the wheel rotating.

It's a basic law of mudguard design that the mudguard should get further from the tyre towards the front.

Like this.

[img] [/img]

plastic tooling is expensive

Powa have obviously been ripped off into paying double what everyone else does...

Crud seem to manage to make plastic things for reasonable prices within the UK.

plastic tooling is expensive.

Proportional, isn't it?

HIgh price, try to recover costs quickly, keep margins high, leads to low sales, and perhaps storage costs for unsold stock.

Surely selling at a lower price would lead to a better reception for them.

Not the best time of the year to launch, either.

plastic tooling is expensive.

Crud seem to manage to make plastic things for reasonable prices within the UK.

Anybody watched the installation video, I think they got CRC to design the packaging, that box is massive.

Bender Fender FTW, costs under a tenner, looks like a pair of briefs, and you get a free Maoam 8)

Sam - Member

fully made and assembled in the UK - that's what you are paying for. I guarantee if it were made in china it'd be half the price, everyone would be raving about it, and in the next breath complaining about the 'death of british manufacturing'...

Sorry Sam can't agree with you on this, I have visited the company who manufacture Crud guards and they are located in Pickering North Yorkshire.

They are being greedy that's all

D0NK - Member

plastic tooling is expensive.

I presume CNC machines are pretty cheap

Crud seem to manage to make plastic things for reasonable prices within the UK.

True plastic moulds are very expensive and you can be looking at £50-100k + depending on size and complexity. Cost for CNC is usually around £30-50 per hour and also you have to take in steel costs which is high these days.

I've seen these in use at recent uplift days and in very muddy conditions they work well. But dam expensive!

The mudguard is strapped to a pair of £900 forks, so it looks cheap by comparison.

way way too expensive 😯

way way too expensive

which brings me onto...

http://www.burgtec.co.uk/products/offset-shock-hardware/burgtec-titanium-offset-shock-hardware/

Cost for CNC is usually around £30-50 per hour

Out of interest rough cost of cnc machine?
I have no idea but pricey I'd guess.

Out of interest rough cost of cnc machine?

[url= http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/Metalworking-Milling-Welding-/11804/i.html?_trkparms=65%253A1%257C66%253A4%257C39%253A1&rt=nc&_nkw=cnc+mill&_catref=1&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_sop=3&_sc=1 ]Bargin[/url]

Haha, the wonders of Ebay

I think the mud guard itself is pretty ugly TBF, oh and the price is insane.

59quid for a mudguard?!?!?!!??!?!?!!?!?!!!!111!1!11 1oneoneone!

[img] [/img]

BNIB stoner?

The cost of the CNC machine is irrelevant surely?

twin cavity mould tool for that mudguard about £35-50,000 if made in UK, c.£25,000 in China. Raw material? I'm a bit out of touch, but say, £1.00. Packaging? £1.00. Then you've got assembly and packaging labour costs on top. How many will they sell per year? 2000? 5000? The finance for the tooling has to be paid back in, say 18 months. Do the maths ..... Still pretty profitable, I'd say.

The cost of the CNC machine is irrelevant surely?

Chris Porter may be many things, but stupid he isn't.

expensive then Brant

I dont recall you over pricing your goods

That is stupid money for a piece of plastic - there can be no debate of that

I dont recall you over pricing your goods

too right! 😉

grab a bargin!
[img] [/img]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/WHOLESALE-30-SILVER-PURPLE-MIX-NEW-PLANET-X-FRONT-CYCLE-MUDGUARD-/260996066270?pt=UK_sportsleisure_cycling_bikeparts_SR&hash=item3cc493ebde

They're supposed to work very well, don't think I'll be buying one until I break/lose my collection of other front guards though.

Happy to 'test' one though 😉

twin cavity mould tool for that mudguard about £35-50,000 if made in UK

They didn't buy the tool to make that, don't be stupid. they out sourced it to a company who has the machinery

Development costs are most likely reason for the cost, however I reckon they're going to sell quite well.

Development costs are most likely reason for the cost

a few hours with CAD in a lunch our and giving the CADS to a local product design company to knock up. test.. refine... done!

Depends how it was done, I did work for Mojo..

Depends how it was done, I did work for Mojo..

I know that but trust me...

this is how it was done

a few hours with CAD in a lunch our and giving the CADS to a local product design company to knock up. test.. refine... done!

Thats a shame i saw that a few months ago and quite fancied it, but its way over priced.

If it was made in China it would be £15 so even if you added £10 then its £25 tops.

Will not be buying one and i dont think they will be big sellers.

I'm sure someone from china will be knocking them out soon enough.

Somebody had to buy the mould - they would obviously 'outsource' it to a trade moulder, but they'd still have to buy the mould. no trade moulder would fork out for a mould for such low quantities, IME.

failedengineer - Member

Somebody had to buy the mould - they would obviously 'outsource' it to a trade moulder, but they'd still have to buy the mould. no trade moulder would fork out for a mould for such low quantities, IME.

Yes you're right.... they've took a gamble cause if they don't sell they'll loose the money they've stumped up for the tooling.

I hope they do sell but don't think I'll buy one for that money as they can easily be broke, £25-30 and if the do fittings for RS forks i'd buy one.

twin cavity mould tool for that mudguard about £35-50,000 if made in UK, c.£25,000 in China

Is that a typical cost ?
I mean, can I look at any of the plastic items around me now; a tape measure, a timing light, the case for a vernier caliper, a cheap bicycle rear light and know that the mould for it cost tens of thousands of pounds ?

Since when are products priced relative to what they cost to manufacture?

Not sure if they'll sell at that price but the way the industry is going it wouldn't surprise me. Seems prices are constantly increasing as consumers continue to spend.

Hideously over priced and as mentioned looks like it will jam the wheel solid in heavy mud.

A Fender Bender combined with a Crud catcher would achieve the same for a fraction of the cost and without locking the wheel.

IIRC the tooling for the original Dyson (~40 moulds) cost about £750k in the early '90s.

A Fender Bender combined with a Crud catcher would achieve the same for a fraction of the cost and without locking the wheel.

Spot on, at a cost of about £18.

plastic tooling is expensive.

I work in the tool-room of a plastics moulding company, we make parts from Plant vehicles like JCB/Caterpillar etc through to medical equipment.

A moulding tool for the mudguards featured could easily run into several thousands of pounds to manufacture, even more if made from tooling steel rather than aluminium. Add in the costs of the CAD design and the inevitable faffing about from the customer over the design, the initial model tool to make the pre-production samples, the pre-production run of a few hundred parts then it becomes an expensive set up.

P.S. these parts won't come straight from a tool and into a bag, they will need trimming,polishing and maybe (depending on the design) painting, all of which needs people to do it.
To get a return on that sort of investment you either need to be selling them in the tens of thousands or asking for more money per unit..

did i mention way way too expensive 😯

Something is only worth what people will pay for it, in this case it look like it not going to be worth £60 odd quid.

Midlandstrailquestgraham - oh yes, cavity tools are hideously expensive and can take weeks to manufacture. Although i've a background in CNC machining, seeing how a moulding tool is not only machined, but how much hand finishing is required to make the mould work properly was enlightening. A tool like that would require a lot of fine machine finishing as it has a lot of very small radiused edges, all of which need to be perfect otherwise the product can (i.e. WILL) catch when the tool is opened, leading to a jammed tool and a pain in the behind for the tool setters. Also, the surface of the tool has to be very highly polished so that the product will eject easily, as well as leaving a high quality finish.
Also remember that each tool will need a heating system designed into it so that hot water can flow through each half at different temps so that the plastics mix is operating at the optimum temperature.

Putting aside how good a product should be in use or how intelligent the designer might be.. before you splash the cash you HAVE to put yourself in the customers shoes for a moment before going to town on the development of whatever you plan on making and ask yourself about the RRP,the packaging,the function and the look of the product amongst a heap of other things I have failed to add.

First thing's first.. you ask yourself if you would pay retail for a front mudguard that's supposedly one of the best out there at £59.

I sit here typing this and feel confused as I try and picture the folk behind it honestly saying they would have no problem spending fifty nine pounds on this product.Even if they did.. did they all agree that people would happily spend this sort of money considering the prices of crud guards and everything else on the market? Did one of them convince the others? I can't help but see this as something that has snowballed into a product that has ended up costing a hell of a lot more than they predicted.

Hey Muddydwarf.

Does your company make its own moulds or do you buy them in

DH racing isn't cheap anyway, if it works well I expect there will be a few about pretty quickly. Seems a lot to me, but well-designed, functional, solid kit is worth paying for right? So assuming it is, ie it can make the difference in a wet race, it'll sell.

someone is going to buy one, make a mould and flog cheapo carbon ones for less than 59 quid

I would not worry too much [url= http://www.dealextreme.com/ ]THESE LOT [/url] will be making it soon. 😐

Frankers - the firm does both. I'm not a toolmaker but I've been involved in setting up and producing very large pre-production parts (hood assemblies for very big plant vehicles) so I've seen a lot of the work that goes into setting up a new product run.

Defender vs. Dfender

I'd be surprised if they didn't receive a legal letter from Topeak in the next few days instructing them to cease using the Dfender name immediately.

You'd think they'd have a bit more sense than to come up with a name with only one letter changed from a well established product in the same market, especially when their product is so similar (albeit 5 times the price)

The mudguard is strapped to a pair of £900 forks, so it looks cheap by comparison.

I still have a nice integrated Marzocchi fender on some bombers. They did not cost £60. Old inner tube on another pair of forks. Free

http://www.ipo.gov.uk/ohim?ohimnum=E3648862
http://www.ipo.gov.uk/ohim?ohimnum=E3813961

What does that mean re. the mudguard then Brant, I ask as I may have to deal with brand /name stuff in the future.
How does it affect the Topeak stuff as well? Which is branded Defender?

From STW web article

Every single part from prototypes, to tooling to finished parts and even nuts and bolts and packaging are all made in the UK, it’s something that more companies should try! There are still skills in the UK!

There we go talking down the UK manufacturer sector again.. we are still a major world manufacturer...

Rootes, Crud are British made as well, AFAIK.

Their products aren't that stupuidly overpriced.

It's not about "talking down" anything, in fact, as you may see, my original point was that I want to be able to support them, but I think they've gone so far wide of the mark with their pricing that it's simply impossible to see it working. I'd like to be proved wrong, though.

Rootes, Crud are British made as well, AFAIK.

Their products aren't that stupuidly overpriced.

It's not about "talking down" anything, in fact, as you may see, my original point was that I want to be able to support them, but I think they've gone so far wide of the mark with their pricing that it's simply impossible to see it working. I'd like to be proved wrong, though.

Comment was in relation to the text on:
http://singletrackworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/we-know-who-is-to-blame-for-the-weather/

rather than on this thread

just to highlight an example of the way everyone assumes the UK makes nothing anymore..

Crud stuff is great - road racer guards are excellent - so much so that I can forgive them for stealing my idea for the Crud Claw many years ago... 😉

Cycraguards are UK made too.

nice idea but you know what they say about a fool and his money 😉