Currently on Shimano 12 speed 30 x 10 - 51. It's been absolutely fine. Could do with new chainring and cassette soon, and i like the idea of trying out 28 x 10 - 45 - reasoning being tighter / smaller drivetrain, less chance to bash it into things etc. Would pick up the corresponding SG mech.
I'm not super fit but used to run a 32 chainring and was fine, 28 - 45 is not too dissimilar a ratio.
Anyone tried similar and have any words of wisdom?
I'm thinking exactly the same thing as I just realised that SG derailleurs exist. I thought medium cages were long gone in the days of 12 speed.
I like the idea of a more compact setup with a smaller cassette. I'm less concerned about gear ratios as it's for my party bike.
I'm about to replace a 32t sprocket with a 30t Rimpact chain damper. I did quickly look at a gear ratio calculator and the 30:45 was almost the same as 32:51.
if you're not often in the smaller couple of sprockets then you'll more likely get a range you'll use more often. if you're matching the chainring to give the same easy gear, you'll just lose a bit off the harder gears.
I have 28t x 10-46t on both my MTBs, and I have been riding it for a good few years now.
The 46t is fine for the majority of climbs, and I'm very rarely conscious of spinning out in the 10t.
I'm using the XD Sunrace cassettes, as it is the only viable 11sp wide range option for XD freehubs.
If you wanted to try the gearing before committing to a new mech nothing bad happened for me temporarily running the long mech with the small cassette, shifted fine with b screw wound all the way out.
Chain tension is noticeably stronger with the short mech. Plus quicker shifting, closer more even changes, lighter and a bit more out of the way. Bonus is the smaller cassettes are usually cheaper because no one wants them. TBH I thought it was just me that used them and Shimano would probably not bother in future. Seems I was wrong.
I remember when the 46t cassette came out for 11 speed and thinking that was more than low enough for my purposes with a 32 chainring. Think I got it to ride Snowdon. 45/46 is still plenty low enough for me 99% of the time. The other 1% it'd be quicker walking.
28t chainring might be too small for some frames. On my Epic or Stumpjumper it would have the chain constantly dragging along chainstay.
Just been to check...the difference between a 30 and 28 tooth chainring lowers the chain by around 4mm. The clearance on my Evo is less than 2mm most of the way along in higher gears with a 30. So the chain would be dragging along the chainstay protector and wearing through it with a 28.
I am aware that Specialized think that's okay, I don't. Older 6Fattie Stumpjumpers used to come from the factory like it with a 28.
Some really useful responses, thanks all. Will check the chainstay clearance. Sounds like the potential benefits are worth giving a go. I'm pretty long in the tooth and remember the olden days of triple, then double chainrings and early attempts at single rings with short block cassettes. Bikes are much more beefy / heavy these days (that's my excuse anyway).
The penultimate cog on the 10 - 51 is a 45 tooth, so going to try a 28 chainring to start with and then avoid using the 51 to see what the deal is. Will also just try avoiding the 51 tooth riding this weekend and see how miserable 30 - 45 is. Might encourage me to get stronger.
SRAM 11spd 28T with 10-42 is fine for me in Calderdale; just bought the same again second-hand for a new build as I don't want the extra weight, cost and faff of 12 spd.
I’m on the same 28/10-42 as pacman on the hardtail. I did have a 26 up front for a bit while towing a kids trailer around in winter mud but did start to notice spinning out. That’s on a 29er hardtail. If it’s not going to mess with your suspension i’d say give it a go.
I’m now running 28t oval + 10-46 11s on my RocketMax, having swapped from a standard 10-42. Standard xt m8000 mech.
The 42 was “ok” for my typical Peak District riding, but the 46 lets me winch up some hideously steep sections, and was great on the multi hour alpine climbs when I rode Stoneking Rally last year.
Not sure id want to go much lower and I’d need to either go 12s or fit a Garbaruk mech cage to make it work.
pretty happy with the setup all in.
I'm peak district based so generally steep, winch up / skid down type riding. Sounds like I should be fine.
I got over excited (well, as much as some cogs on a push bike can generate excitement) and ordered XT mech, cassette and chainring from Woolly Hat Shop
I've got exactly this setup on my 'analogue' bike. I always liked the old 11 speed 10-42 Sram GX and and I now run the Shimano XT 12 speed in 10-45 flavour, with a comparatively small chain ring.
Running a 30 or 28tooth chainring gets you low enough gearing for proper climbing, and with the whole cassette being smaller you get noticeable closer and smoother steps between gears. And then at the high speed end, a high cadence gets you as fast as you'll ever need off road and frankly, I'm not at all interested in pedalling my MTB over 18-20ish mph on the road.
Its lighter, smoother and gives better ground clearance. The mech is further from the floor, it shifts faster, it's literally better in every way other than not having 500% range which I don't need on this bike.
Note with Shimano you need the shorter length ( gs? sgs? I can't remember which is which ) mech to match the 10-45, the much more common long cage simply doesnt work right. Trust me, I've tried.
Also remember that the difference between 27.5 and 29 back wheel is about 2 teeth, if you are OK with 30t on the smaller wheel you probably want to run 28t with the larger wheel.
I highly recommend this setup!
the much more common long cage simply doesnt work right. Trust me, I've tried.
How peculiar! I was riding the long mech and small cassette together a couple of weeks ago without issue. Shifted just the same for me. Tried it because I went to build a new bike and found the correct mech had seized up while sat around.
Well this was an expensive thread.
I've just ordered a cassette, chain and derailleur from Wooly Hat Shop. Best prices I could find.
I'm keen to see the weight difference between the XT cassette and the no-name OEM cheapy I've been using for a few years.
I'm keen to see the weight difference between the XT cassette and the no-name OEM cheapy
Likely not as much as people think, I'm going for 150-200gms difference. I think this is going to drag on the top of the chain stay, but hope to be proven wrong. My Chisel FS is rated for a 30T, I built the frame up with a 30T, it near enough drags on the stay when freewheeling and slightly slack.
Running a 30 or 28tooth chainring gets you low enough gearing for proper climbing, and with the whole cassette being smaller you get noticeable closer and smoother steps between gears. And then at the high speed end, a high cadence gets you as fast as you'll ever need off road and frankly, I'm not at all interested in pedalling my MTB over 18-20ish mph on the road.
Its lighter, smoother and gives better ground clearance. The mech is further from the floor, it shifts faster, it's literally better in every way other than not having 500% range which I don't need on this bike.
Also remember that the difference between 27.5 and 29 back wheel is about 2 teeth, if you are OK with 30t on the smaller wheel you probably want to run 28t with the larger wheel.
Fully agree with all that snotrag.
The 28/10-42 I'm happy with is on 27.5 wheels. For bigger wheels I would want a lower gear, whether 10-46 for 11 spd or 10-45 for 12spd.
I will when the current drive train wears out
You don't believe that it will start wearing through the chainstay protector? lol
I will when the current drive train wears out
You don't believe that it will start wearing through the chainstay protector? lol
it will be close. Wolf race say there is an 8mm difference in diameter between a 30 and 28 so you need 4mm. My chain is 6mm above the chain stay in 30-10 gear at its closest point
I'm currently running an E13 9-46 12spd with the longer XT M8100 mech, had to flip the little spacer that the b-tension screw sits against around to the front to get it shifting well.
the much more common long cage simply doesnt work right. Trust me, I've tried.
How peculiar! I was riding the long mech and small cassette together a couple of weeks ago without issue. Shifted just the same for me. Tried it because I went to build a new bike and found the correct mech had seized up while sat around.
Same here. I ran 10-45 with an SGS for ages no problems.
I think I need to be fitter reading this. I'm currently on a 28t oval with 11-51 on the back and often find myself wanting another easier gear. I actually considered a 26 but can't find an oval for Raceface Cinch in that size.
Do you live somewhere super steep? 26 - 51 is a very very low gear, may as well get off and walk? A friend who is long of leg and walks quickly will sometimes overtake me walking when I'm struggling in 30 - 51 😆
My experiments this weekend with sticking to 30 - 45 showed that for me and my very average fitness it was fine for shorter rides (c 2 - 3hrs) but for an all dayer i'd get a bit goosed eventually. The 28 chainring is going on for more leisure options. Also a rear semi slick is a big win.
I think I need to be fitter reading this. I'm currently on a 28t oval with 11-51 on the back and often find myself wanting another easier gear. I actually considered a 26 but can't find an oval for Raceface Cinch in that size.
As Blake's just said, 26 - 51 is a very very low gear. To put some numbers to it:
42 / 30 = 1.40 (the original gearing on my 27.5 full-sus, I could still get up the hills but it felt harder than it needed to)
48 / 34 = 1.41 (current 1x bottom gear on my old 26" hardtail with fairly quick tyres, spins easily up pretty much anything)
42 / 28 = 1.50 (current bottom gear on my full-sus, low enough for me in Calderdale and Lakes, i.e. steep as anywhere)
34 / 22 = 1.55 (old bottom gear on my 26" hardtail with triple chainring and bigger cassette fitted, span easily up pretty much anything)
51 / 32 = 1.59 (standard chainring size for the new 12 spd cassettes? slightly easier than bottom gear on my old triple, though not quite as easy with bigger wheels / slower tyres)
36 / 22 = 1.64 (bottom gear on my old hardtail when it was set up 2x, silly low, span up anything)
51 / 30 = 1.70 (noticeably lower gearing than my old triple, similar feel if 29er with slow tyres?)
51 / 28 = 1.82 (never seen or heard of gearing this low until your post above, I don't know about oval rings, maybe this equates to 30 normal ring?)
And you're wanting to go even lower with 51 / 26 (= 1.96)? Assuming no health issues, then check for brake rub and seized bearings in bottom bracket and hubs.
If that doesn't help then yes you need to get fitter, or just accept that pedaling up a steep hill at the end of a ride is not supposed to feel easy!
(PS. It's a slow morning at work, I had most of the numbers above in an old spreadsheet, fitness wise I'd say I'm above average).
I’ve run a 28 or 30 oval with an E13 9-46 11 speed cassette for past 6-7 years with a SRAM derailleur. Works perfectly.
Will probably change to a Gabaruk 10-46 when it wears out.
Received the new drivetrain and fitted it yesterday. Not been on a proper ride yet but have scooted up and down the road. Observations:
- 28 tooth chainring is hilariously small, and I think smaller than the chainring on my 10 year old sons bike. I'm decidedly old school and think younger me would have laughed at how weak older me is.
- Mech is noticeably more compact and more 'out of the way'.
- shifting feels very fast, going up and down the block feels very smooth with the consistent ratio steps, notably so over the larger range cassette.
- final ratio / granny gear feels fine
Looking forward to heading out on a proper ride and seeing if it reduces chain slap etc at all, but initial impressions are positive.
I've never really weighed bike parts before. Is this how weight weenies live?
Anyway, as you can see I've shaved a grand total of 113 grams from the rear axle.
This is the cheapy unbranded 10-50 which came fitted to a Privateer 141.
This is the new XT 10-45. The difference is really obvious just when handling them.
And as an added Bonus, the XT derailleur is a fair bit lighter than the SLX.
Not to mention the whole lot just looks a lot nicer, and much tidier on the bike. I've never been a fan of giant cassettes.
I haven't ridden it yet. I've got some chain alignment issues to sort out related to the new Hope cranks and Rimpact chainring. If I get that sorted this week there will be a test ride on Saturday.
I think I said above that this is for my bikepark/uplift/Alps bike so ultimate pedalling ability isn't really a concern. I'd rather have the lower weight and extra clearance. I did consider fitting a 7 speed DH setup but that would be a step too far. Maybe next time.
I've just gone from a 28-front chainring with 45-rear bailout gear on my old Orange Four to a 32-front 50-rear on my new Stage 6 and I'm really struggling with the steeper climbs that I used to beat on the Four. Both bikes are similar weight, I went from an XL Four down to a Large Stage 6, so I reckon it's the gear ratios and not that I'm hugely overweight, unfit and in my mid 50's. It's absolutely a problem with my setup. 😉
I have been considering similar when I need to change my cassette. Unfortunately - I haven’t found any direct mount 30T chain rings to fit the Shimano EP8 motor*
I would like to consider a smaller 9-45 cassette and a 30T ring. Less weight and better clearance from a GS mech. I have other people I could pass my current SGS mech to!
*Unfortunately health issues mean I have to ride an e-bike now.
I've just gone from a 28-front chainring with 45-rear bailout gear on my old Orange Four to a 32-front 50-rear on my new Stage 6 and I'm really struggling with the steeper climbs that I used to beat on the Four. Both bikes are similar weight, I went from an XL Four down to a Large Stage 6, so I reckon it's the gear ratios and not that I'm hugely overweight, unfit and in my mid 50's. It's absolutely a problem with my setup.
Bigger wheels are like adding 2t to the chainring, you need a 30 or 28t chainring.
I have a 28t on my Stage 6 Evo (11-46t cassette) FWIW
I've just gone from a 28-front chainring with 45-rear bailout gear on my old Orange Four to a 32-front 50-rear on my new Stage 6 and I'm really struggling with the steeper climbs that I used to beat on the Four. Both bikes are similar weight, I went from an XL Four down to a Large Stage 6, so I reckon it's the gear ratios and not that I'm hugely overweight, unfit and in my mid 50's. It's absolutely a problem with my setup. 😉
28:45 = 0.62 ratio (for each crank turn you get 0.62 rear wheel rotation)
32:50 = 0.64 ratio - so they arent that much different
I've just gone from a 28-front chainring with 45-rear bailout gear on my old Orange Four to a 32-front 50-rear on my new Stage 6 and I'm really struggling with the steeper climbs that I used to beat on the Four. Both bikes are similar weight, I went from an XL Four down to a Large Stage 6, so I reckon it's the gear ratios and not that I'm hugely overweight, unfit and in my mid 50's. It's absolutely a problem with my setup. 😉
28:45 = 0.62 ratio (for each crank turn you get 0.62 rear wheel rotation)
32:50 = 0.64 ratio - so they arent that much different
They are. You've missed off the wheel size - which is critical, its the final drive. As Chakaping mentioned, going from a 27.5" wheel Orange 4 to a 29" wheel Stage 6 is a signifcant change in final drive.
Note - This: https://www.gear-calculator.com/
is the best of the various bicycle gear calculators out there, as it enables you to make those exact comparisions, even down to putting in tyre size.
I've just gone from a 28-front chainring with 45-rear bailout gear on my old Orange Four to a 32-front 50-rear on my new Stage 6 and I'm really struggling with the steeper climbs that I used to beat on the Four. Both bikes are similar weight, I went from an XL Four down to a Large Stage 6, so I reckon it's the gear ratios and not that I'm hugely overweight, unfit and in my mid 50's. It's absolutely a problem with my setup. 😉
28:45 = 0.62 ratio (for each crank turn you get 0.62 rear wheel rotation)
32:50 = 0.64 ratio - so they arent that much different
They are. You've missed off the wheel size - which is critical, its the final drive. As Chakaping mentioned, going from a 27.5" wheel Orange 4 to a 29" wheel Stage 6 is a signifcant change in final drive.
Ah i didnt see any mention of wheel size differences. So its the wheel sizes thats causing the different not the gear ratios.
Does the current medium cage XT have all the same features as the long cage?
I thought when they originally released it that the mech was different, which is why I avoided the 10-45 & med cage setup that was available with that gen.
I switched to the 45t cassette and shorter cage about a year ago, the mech is same just shorter, I'd say the shifting is slightly better but I did upgrade the shifter to XTR, I rarely used the the 51t cog and didn't like how low the long cage was on a 27.5 wheel. Hopefully the new XT is only a few months away and has the 9-45t cassette like the new XTR, I might then drop to a 32t chainring instead of my current 34t
I've literally got both setups next to each other on two of my bikes - M8100 XT with long cage and 10-51t cassette, and M8100 Xt with medium cage and 10-45t cassette.
They have exactly the same features and design, they just have a different cage. And I am 100% convinced that the 10-45 shifts better, faster, more accurately, doesnt bounce about as much etc - all you lose is range (and weight!).
And I'll double down on what I said earlier, simply changing to the smaller cassette is sub optimal, the b-tension and cage geometry is never quite right, and it either shifts well at the top end or the bottom end, but never the whole 12 ratios.
Using the matching shorter cage mech with its associated cassette made an instant improvement (Shimano do not list them as cross compatible).
I'm very excited to see what becomes available with the new XT with an ultra low profile, wireless mech and a 9-45 ratio. Slim, light, out the way from rocks etc, it could be brilliant.
And I'll double down on what I said earlier, simply changing to the smaller cassette is sub optimal, the b-tension and cage geometry is never quite right, and it either shifts well at the top end or the bottom end, but never the whole 12 ratios.
Spitting feathers as though they're facts won't help. All 12 gears shifted perfectly for me. I was surprised, but they did. Dunno why I didn't save money and leave that mech on there, as I don't like the bike much having ridden it more. Maybe there's something else different about our setups? I don't find b tension adjustment to be as critical to Shimano shifting as some would have it believed. I only suggested it as a temporary measure to try the gearing without forking out for a new mech anyway.
Been out for my usual ride (Hagg farm peak district enduro type trails). Really like the drivetrain. Given it's brand new it's perhaps an unfair comparison to my old one, but shifts really smoothly, quickly. Definitely a bit less chain slap. I did miss the super low granny gear once or twice but no big deal. Overall thumbs up 👍
