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I like the extra traction, extra give and it's given me better times on most things on Strava compared to my old hardtail. It's arguably better suited to trails with big rocks everywhere rather than pootling around the Surrey Hills though.
Can we stop this mildly evidence-based, first hand experience with some sort of context malarky please and get back to gut feelings and the 'bike industry is conning us' narrative please. 650b+ is FAKE news. Very unfair!
Mine's 29 plus. Pure, distilled marketing.
(I'd previously written it off as complete attention seeking nichemongery but when built up as a proper mountain bike rather than a jumped up tourer it's great).
Mine's 29 plus. Pure, distilled marketing.
DOUBLE FAKE from the failing bike industry. Very dishonest!
Sad.
Can we stop this mildly evidence-based, first hand experience with some sort of context malarky please and get back to gut feelings and the 'bike industry is conning us' narrative please. 650b+ is FAKE news
I heard that the whole plus bike concept was dreamt up by the Russians
mcnultycop - Member
Better than a full fat bike though
True dat
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[quote=BadlyWiredDog ]Can we stop this mildly evidence-based, first hand experience with some sort of context malarky please and get back to gut feelings and the 'bike industry is conning us' narrative please. 650b+ is FAKE news. Very unfair!#Jambafat
That's one of the reasons I've just sold my Cannondale Beast of the East. I loved the bike for its outstanding grip, until the mud comes along. Absolutely no bite at all, unless the mud is as sloppy as water.
I would rather compromise and lose a small percentage of grip through the three seasons and gain a large percentage through the winter.
Fat bike here. No problem in mud with Nates - in Wales anyway. But Wales isn't very muddy really. Not so good with Gnards or however you spell it.
Not sure if half fat is better or worse in mud. Was thinking of trying 29+. Maybe I won't bother then.
I find full fat different but tbh I'm not totally sure why 😆 It does struggle with standing water/loose mud and float but not so much with mud. Maybe it's the stability of the stupid things, I've saved slides that you'd swear would end in doom. Normal bikes (including plus) fall over pretty fast when you lose the front. Or maybe it's the bigger footprint, finding grip that the plus tyre just misses.
But I think mostly it's demeanour. Plus bikes are very normal feeling, so when they do something shit it's just normal bike shit. Whereas fatbikes are stupid feeling, so when they do something shit it's lol stupid shit. Riding steep and nasty things on the fatbike is hilarious and rewarding. Riding steep and nasty things on the plus setup I had was just like riding it with proper tyres, only bad.
Sorry to sound ignorant, but can't you just bang a pair of standard 29'ers in for winter?
I thought that was sort of the point with these.
A simple, rigid 29/+ bike appeals.
That's one of the reasons I've just sold my Cannondale Beast of the East.
Bit drastic?
I would rather compromise and lose a small percentage of grip through the three seasons and gain a large percentage through the winter.
Winter tyres?
Maybe it's the stability of the stupid things
I think you are on to something. I feel a lot more confident going (straight) down a muddy slope on a Surly Bud 26x4.8" than I do on, say, a Hans Dampf 29x2.35". In theory the thinner tyre should cut through and find grip, but in practice the front end wobbles around in a worrying manner. Once you get the 3Kg Bud-wheel up to speed though, it feels as though nothing will knock it over, Maybe it's gripping maybe it's not, but it stays upright.
There is really not much choice of winter tyres for +bikes. I also did say that it was one of the reasons I sold the bike, not the reason.
Malvern Rider - MemberWinter tyres?
Give it a year or two and they might exist.
Do people ride with normal width summer tyres in the winter? It seems a bit unfair to compare proper mud tyres with dry weather ones, especially with the plus tyres currently available.
When people start using the Maxxis DHR/FHR tyres (for example) in the mud then we'll have a much better comparison as those tyres work pretty well at regular width in the British winter.
Define normal width summer tyres.
I'm on 2.2" MK2s all year round; local trails never really dry out...
andytheadequate - MemberDo people ride with normal width summer tyres in the winter? It seems a bit unfair to compare proper mud tyres with dry weather ones, especially with the plus tyres currently available.
It's fair to criticise it for that lack of availability tbh, if you have the bike now it's no help that a better tyre might be along some day.
I'm not sure there'll ever be a good, full-on winter plus tyre tbh. To overcome the width it'd need bigger spikes which means more carcass to support it, and that all adds up to weight and drag and most likely short life. Do you want an 1800g 3.0 Shorty that rolls and wears like a wetscream? Even an XC mud is asking a lot to balance all those factors (because while grip becomes less important drag becomes more)
I could be wrong but I think the usability limits are going to be around the minion level, which for a normal bike is pretty midrange in terms of capability. And I also predict that the plus minion isn't going to be as effective a tyre in winter as the 2.3 anyway.
And it'll always be competing directly with 29er tyres which are just plain more suited to the job- even once that mythical winter plus tyre comes out it has to be as good as the skinny equivalent, I'd be astonished if it is. Same as plus tyres have an advantage elsewhere. It's just that where plus seems to be worst, is the conditions where tyres make the biggest difference and have the hardest job.
I haven't actually run my B+ bike with the intended tyres yet... must have a go soon. The Bontys that came with it are worryingly small knobbed though so it has 29" wheels are more aggressive rubber for the moment.
That said, I may throw em in and go out on a gloop fest and see what happens sometime this week though, if I get a chance!
I'm quite a fan of really low BB heights in the mud, as it makes balancing a two wheel drift that much easier - so if I had a plus bike I'd be tempted to put non-plus mud tyres on for the winter, sticking with the 27.5 rims, rather than going up to 29.
As long as there isn't more than about 55mm of BB drop it'll work just fine!
Plus Minions are great. Still float a bit but the wider spacing means they clear very well.
honourablegeorge where did you get hold of them? Nowhere seems to stock them yet in the UK.
I heard that the whole plus bike concept was dreamt up by the Russians
😆
Given the width of the tyre and the weight of bike and rider, you will be floating so no grip in the mud as you aren't biting in to it...a drawback of balloon tyres and something the marketing bs doesn't cover...
Get (much) heavier or get (much) narrower tyres...
Having read more of the thread replies, my stuff has already been covered...
OK my 2 pence, fat bike rider (doh obviously) and so far, in the last three months of mud fest not noticed any huge disadvantageous slide to my death or similar. Yes do get the odd slide when I am riding up a muddy Eiger like face but heh it's a bike not a chair lift.
Sorry to be boringly common sense like but isn't this a weight distribution, right tyre, type or mud and tyre pressure thread all over again?
From what I can see / read it just appears that the tyre manufacturers haven't (yet?) caught up with the demands of +/650b/27.5+ or whatever you call mid fat tyres these days.
I noticed a start shift in grip going lower pressures on the fatbike and changing to the FBF/FBF has given me some serious mud grip at 6 / 5 psi.
Perhaps I just ride slow .... or I'm heavy (it's the bike .. honest) or both 🙂
😉
James
[quote=DickBarton ]Given the width of the tyre and the weight of bike and rider, you will be floating so no grip in the mud as you aren't biting in to it...a drawback of balloon tyres and something the marketing bs doesn't cover...What Plus tyres have you tried?
None, I've seen mates 'suffering' with them...I say 'suffering' as lack of grip is standard form in winter so everyone is suffering...however, what I have noticed us a much shallower tread mark showing they have more float.
Given that and chats with mates I've posted up...are we now expecting everyone to only post up once they have tried all variants of all tyres and type of bike?
tommygee - Member
honourablegeorge where did you get hold of them? Nowhere seems to stock them yet in the UK.
Got mine here, seem to be best price wise too (still outrageously expensive, but some sites are asking 110 euro). Have a 3C DHF front with a Rekon Dual rear.
.I say 'suffering' as lack of grip is standard form in winter so everyone is suffering...however, what I have noticed us a much shallower tread mark showing they have more float.
This is what I find. Running chronicles and rangers on my two bikes, generally riding natural trails within an hour of Edinburgh, mainly Fife, Dunkeld and Tweed Valley. For most stuff, they grip way more so when you do lose it then the feeling is very jarring. Everything slips. The last ride I had at blairadam on a Mary/Minion combo was sketchy and lethal, I would rather have been on the chronicles and they are the 'worst' for mud going on internet chat.
Your second point about not cutting in, I have noticed this and like it. I leave noticeably less trail damage now. Especially things like soaking wet grass (hello ochills!) where you would think the chronicles would flounder they grip like velcro and leave far less damage.
I got a pair of the Alpkit Rumpus 650B+ wheels to try out on my Solaris. Fitted 3" Bridger on the front 2.8"(hah! yeah, right) Trailblazer on the back, the frame won't take a bigger tyre.
Great fun but once conditions aren't "quite right" then they exaggerate all the effects that 2-2.35" tyres also exhibit. So when you get a cm or so of wet surface material you slide out much earlier than you would with the narrower tyre. You need to ride them a while to get used to them rather than just trying them for a ride here and there. Once you know how they handle then you can swap them in and out for particular rides.
Someone mentioned about UK winter slop essentially being a niche, the biggest MTB market is the US and they ride very dry trails for most of the time.
They won't be my main wheel/tyre but they are useful to have as an option. It's a cheap(ish) way to effectively get a new bike.
Edit, following pigyn's post: the point about "not cutting in" is very true. The 3" tyres are most of the way to full fat and you get many of those benefits: large tyres and low pressures = less ground damage.
...the biggest MTB market is the US and they ride very dry trails for most of the time.
Not that that's a sweeping generalisation. Ever been to Seattle? 😆
I'm assuming motorbikes bypass the problem by having big knobs.
What would the down side of having a big knob on a fat bike be?
(Behave!)
They also have a huge amount more weight to push down the skinnier front tyre, and an engine to spin up the rear like a paddle wheel digger combo.
As Northwind said earlier, to support a larger knobs you'd need a beefier carcass, which means even more weight (and inevitably expense) along with increased rolling resistance
Can only speak to my own experience, but I'm running 3.0 NNs on my Stooge and find them excellent in the mud.
I also ride a fatbike and took a couple of rides to adjust but found both tyre combos I've tried to be very good. Started off with VHs front and rear (which I liken to huge Swamp Things - my favourite ever mud tyre), but am now on Bud front, VH rear. It's a great combo with the Bud having slightly better control out front.
The reason i took a couple of rides to adjust is that you do get an initial slide/float when you hit mud, but you are so stable on the big tyres you just ride it and wait for the bite.
Only caveat for all this would be that I'm riding forest trails and mountain tracks in the Highlands. If I wasn't riding mountains I'd maybe have a different view.
I like the feel of dual ply tyres (or tough 'enduro' equivalents), the support they give, the non vague cornering even when running low pressures, the reassurance that I'm less likely to pinch flat.
I'd be interested to know how a plus tyre compares for the same weight. I'm assuming it's none of the above, but what do you get for the extra weight? Better climbing traction? Comfort? Fun?? (Not sure how that can be quantified!)
It's always handy to know if folk have first hand experience or are thoughtlessly repeating memes. That affects how much credence to apply.are we now expecting everyone to only post up once they have tried all variants of all tyres and type of bike?
I like the feel of dual ply tyres (or tough 'enduro' equivalents), the support they give, the non vague cornering even when running low pressures, the reassurance that I'm less likely to pinch flat.I'd be interested to know how a plus tyre compares for the same weight. I'm assuming it's none of the above, but what do you get for the extra weight? Better climbing traction? Comfort? Fun?? (Not sure how that can be quantified!)
All the above. Or none. Maybe. It depends on you. Quite a few b+ tyres seem to be under-built to save weight, but stuff like the WTB Tough casings are pretty chunky. In a general ride feel way, I'd say they tend to feel floatier, but less precise than conventional tyres and tend to wrap around stuff rather than bouncing over it if you're running optimum pressure.
If you're Northwind you think that the extra traction is a some sort of illusory, post-truth, alternative fact. If you're Druidh you think they work fine in mud. If you're honourablegeorge you are the only person in the known universe riding with a 2.8 Minion DHF, so you can think whatever you like without fear of contradiction.
There's no single truth just whatever you believe. They are very much of the moment.
HTH
Q.What Plus tyres have you tried?
A. None
That has tickled me somewhat 🙂
I like to think of the perfect tyre width discussion as a graph. 'Acceptability" would be the vertical axis. Width would be the horizontal. There would be few proponents at either end (28-32mm and 4-5"), but a huge swell of approval around 2.2 to 2.4".
I like to think of it as the bell-end curve.
It's always handy to know if folk have first hand experience or are thoughtlessly repeating memes. That affects how much credence to apply.
I'll ask the Web development team to add a caveat on all my posts to apply zero credence...like all the other issues that aren't being sorted this may not actually get applied so you'll just need to take my posts and assume within all that verbiage there is a bit of observation or experience that is used to base my input.
😉
I think that's planned for Forum mk 3.2
BadlyWiredDog - MemberIf you're honourablegeorge you are the only person in the known universe riding with a 2.8 Minion DHF, so you can think whatever you like without fear of contradiction.
🙂
I should stop sharing the link
For me, one of the key things for a tyre is the profile. I don't seem to get on with round profile tyres, there's nothing to cram into the ground. I don't mind a roundish profile on a rear tyre, but the front has to be quite aggressive, big shoulder knobs, big gap between shoulder knobs and central tread. IE like a minion dhf. I guess that's why a dual ply feels better too. I'm sure it's just my riding style (or lack of it!) suits tyres like that.
I'm assuming that plus/fat tyres aren't generally built like that? I'm just curious really, I've not seen that many plus bikes in the flesh.
I'm assuming that plus/fat tyres aren't generally built like that? I'm just curious really, I've not seen that many plus bikes in the flesh.
Well, there's the Minion DHF 2.8 🙂
I should stop sharing the link
Yep, you might save me some money... I'm torn between sticking a 2.5 WT Minion DHF up front or going for the 2.8 DHF and sticking a Rekon+ on the back.
edit: thank god, they're out of stock...