The Carbon Chameleon is dead long live the aluminium Chameleon

In my opinion it’s massively overpriced for the spec but guess that’s the market at the moment plus SC premium. Shame there’s no frame only option too as many spending anything like that on a hardtail would likely want a more custom build. Thankfully I bought a secondhand Chameleon aluminium frame off here a couple of years ago and built one up with a mix of new and spare parts for under £600. It’s a much, much better spec than the new ones! It’s a great bike to ride and very adaptable. Very happy.

I also got a heavily reduced new Tallboy C from Stif a couple of years ago. I lucked in as it was before the component specs were reduced and because it was the previous year’s colour and a 650b+ the discount was huge. It cost me little more than my previous Whyte G150 and allowed me to afford a bike I could not justify otherwise. Shame there are no deals like that at the moment!!

Jesus, what a price hike. Paid £550 when they released the new one 3 years ago and did a v nice build for sub 2k which I’m still riding.

No chance I would buy one again at that price.

As for SC gouging the customer – for comparison, The Yeti ARC is £4500 as a complete build or £1400 as a Turq frame only and from what I can see, it comes with about £2-£2.2k worth of bits on it…

Great marketing though, we’re all talking about it 🙂

my chameleon frame is a 2017 bought for 550 i think? they rose in price about 6 months after launch IIRC. it was bought as the tool for the job because when you actually look there aren’t ‘that’ many frames out there with the sort of dropout arrangement offered by SC. set up singlespeed, two sets of wheels for + and 29er experimentation, and i still switch between them mainly on the basis of which wheelset needs a tyre or bearings doing. it’s done getting on for 100km and around 2000m of climbing per week. it’s on it’s second set of forks and second dropper. it’s been good value IMO. if i had to throw it away tomorrow i wouldn’t feel too hard done by. no-one at the local hills knows what car i drive because it’s dark half the time and i ride there. last time i looked (admittedly before covid and rip-off britain really got going) an alloy FS frame with shock from SC was cheaper than the equivalent from orange by ~150 quid. SC haven’t been that bad value IMO. they’ve never been cheap but apples compared to apples they weren’t ‘that’ expensive either.
having said that i think these prices are very steep indeed. i think they’re going to turn a lot of people off the brand for this.

edit:

FYI Stif are showing the frame only for £899

£799. hmm.

£799. hmm.

My Niner RLT 9 (aluminium frame, carbon fork, QR at both ends) was £900 in 2014…given 7 years and the state of bike prices, is £800 for the frame that bad?

darrenhowe
Full Member

Designed for California.
Priced for the Surrey Hills

I liked the “Yesterdays bike at tomorrows prices” comment myself

Daffy – WTF, you’ve compared this to two hugely overpriced products.

Nukeproof Scout is £450 SRP frame only, £1,300 SRP for the Recon model.

Yes, £800 for an aluminum hardtail frame is really that bad. And the full bike prices are just taking the piss.

😀

Daffy – WTF, you’ve compared this to two hugely overpriced products.

Nukeproof Scout is £450 SRP frame only, £1,300 SRP for the Recon model.

Yes, £800 for an aluminum hardtail frame is really that bad. And the full bike prices are just taking the piss.

How much is a solaris, bearing in mind there’s less in terms of import fees to factor in?.

I’m not a dentist, nor do I drive an Audi.

After sales/warranty care from Santa Cruz/Jungle/Stif is absolutely bloody brilliant and, in my opinion, worth the premium;

– Raceface crankset failed on my Bronson after two years, brand new carbon crankset provided.
– Swing arm cracked on 2008 Heckler in 2013, brand new swing arm within a week, no questions asked. – Provided with demo bike to use after I had ordered my Bronson prior to it being built and delivered.

Carbon Carbon Carbon Carbon Carbon Chameleons? They come and go…

Just me with the earworm then?

@G

they had to really.

SC do tend to be mopped up by the dentist/consultant/GP types. the LBS of north glasgow/south west stirlingshire seems to do a roaring trade

Disclaimer: Stif’s people are, in my experience, awesome to deal with.

Compare and contrast this with the Specialized Fuse, a very similar hardtail. For the money you’d spend on the base model Chameleon, you’d be £100 better off buying the top of the range Fuse, complete with a Fox 34, sliding dropouts and so on. I’ve got an M4 Expert frame I picked up second hand, and I have to say the only two differences I’d note are the seatpost bottle bosses, which make a longer dropper problematic but not impossible, and the lack of frame ports for running brakes moto or UK style. It rides really, really well and doesn’t slap you around the face with the branding, which is a bit of a relief. There’s nothing on the Chameleon that justifies that mark up, and frankly I’m scratching my head a bit.

[edit] I’m in the Surrey Hills, so Specialized is a bit of a niche brand compared to Santa Cruz 😀

A lot of the issue with perceived value seems to stem from the often peculiar translation of cost from dollars to pounds with US ’boutique’ brands. If someone living in the UK happened to be on holiday in the states and chose to buy a Chameleon while there the cost would be,
£1,760; £2,170; £2,760 or £699 frame only. There would potentially be taxes etc to pay on returning but to me at least those prices seem far less outlandish.

A lot of the issue with perceived value seems to stem from the often peculiar translation of cost from dollars to pounds with US ’boutique’ brands.

That’s an odd description for Santa Cruz. They’re mainstream. The cost comparison I made above was with another US mainstream brand. Santa Cruz isn’t two people with edgy haircuts and leather aprons in a shed.

Even the Forex- and import-dodging answer comes out at a £400 difference between the highest spec Chameleon and Fuse build, assuming you don’t import the Fuse and pay UK retail price. What’s that £400 buying?

If someone living in the UK happened to be on holiday in the states and chose to buy a Chameleon while there the cost would be, £1,760; £2,170; £2,760 or £699 frame only. There would potentially be taxes etc to pay on returning

don’t know if you accounted for his, but such a person would need to pay federal and possibly state sales tax on those prices.

personally, i’d buy a Rock Mountain Growler. the middle spec 40 model is 2000 canadian dollars plus sales tax.

what i like most about santa cruz is that their parent company describes themselves as being “involved in mobility products, services, and solutions globally.” such a wide reach doesn’t come cheap.

it was bought as the tool for the job because when you actually look there aren’t ‘that’ many frames out there with the sort of dropout arrangement offered by SC. set up singlespeed, two sets of wheels for + and 29er experimentation

Fair comment, that. However, and off the top of my head:
* Pipedream
* 18 Bikes
* Pace
* Vertigo
* Downland
* Shand
* Surly
* Salsa
* Vassago
* Specialized
* Cotic
* Trek
* Singular
* Stif
* Alpkit
* Planet X / OO

A few years ago, I couldn’t get a Chameleon frame only, although Stif / Jungle were exceptionally helpful. My LBS hooked me up with a Stache frame instead, which did everything the Santa did with a shorter back end and 29+ compatibility. Back then, by the way, the Stache cost a bit more. I ran it with 27.5+, 29 and 29+.

The frames from the above makers do the same job for less money, or sell complete bikes which are far less.

I completely agree with the reverse snobbery point, but that shouldn’t detract from the fact that, even compared to Santa Cruz’ own range, this bike is terrible value for money.

If you need sliding dropouts and a complete bike, a Specialized Fuse Comp or Expert will tick the same boxes for less money. Don’t need sliding dropouts? The world truly is your oyster. Heck, for that, I’d consider going custom.

This bike will float a lot of peoples’ boats, but it’s a triumph of marketing over substance, and plenty of people remember when the Chameleon was the exact opposite of that.

Am I the only person who quite likes them? Also…. I fear when this years cycle of new models gets going we all might be in for a bit of a shock about prices Vs specification. I’m seeing a few brands letting people know that the current batch is the last before cost increases…

I don’t argue that the complete bikes are poor value and I think I said that in my first post but a lot of the bikes you list are not comparable in the slightest. Many are steel, many don’t have adjustable dropouts, many don’t have modern Geo, and many don’t do both 29 and 27.5 + (Surly? Great bikes for sure but give me a break!) Some even aren’t available any more (general modern world issues aside – do singular even make bikes any more?)

Yep – I’m not disagreeing with you at all, just reeling off the huge amount of choice we’re lucky enough to have on hardtail frames these days at lower prices than the Santa. Apologies if I sounded a bit chippy – not my intention.

Pretty much, if you can fit a 29″ in, you can also fit 27.5+. However, here’s a list of manufacturers from my list above that claim compatibility *and* have adjustable dropouts. Sure, some are steel, but I’m not going to apologise for that 🙂

Pipedream Sirius
Specialized Fuse Comp / Expert
Trek Stache
Pace 629
Salsa Timberjack

At £799 for the frame only, there’s some pretty stiff competition. If I’d not already got a good deal on a Fuse frame second hand, I probably would have been queuing up to buy a Salsa Timberjack frame – it’s properly nice.

I expect Santa Cruz will sell a lot of Chameleons. They always do, and they’re cracking bikes. The Chameleon just seems rather overpriced this year compared to previous years, and overpriced compared to the competition.

The Chameleon just seems rather overpriced this year compared to previous years, and overpriced compared to the competition.

Bikeradar (Seb Scott iirc) were particularly scathing about the value proposition of the outgoing model when it was originally released

Similarly, never seen many chameleons in the flesh tbh, but then not many hardtails at all round here really.