I am part of a group trying to develop the Highland Perthshire local area as a mountain bike destination. We have a brilliant selection of rides and great natural scenery but only a few of these are known to all but the cognoscenti.

Encouraging people to come for a weekend or a week will put money into the local economy (which is heavily tourist dependent) which in turn will enable us to get money to develop better trails and so on. The objective is not to develop any kind of trail centre facility, but more to promote accessible natural routes to take riders into relatively remote Highland environments without necessarily needing expert bike or navigational skills. We will of course be including big/serious/technical riding for those that want it.

We obviously want to encourage not just the biking gods of the STW massive, but also make it a great area for the less experienced and families as well

What we need is input on all aspects that would tempt YOU to come for a few days or more. Things like

Types of accomodation
What constitutes "bike friendly" accomodation
Eating places
Types of trails
Number of trails
Route cards
Bike shops
Etc, etc

Would appreciate as much input as possible from as many people as possible.

Also, for those that know the area, their favourite routes so we can start developing route cards

Fire away

Thanks, Alex. Feel free to email if you prefer – address in profile

a range of accomodation (bunkhouse, camping, b&b, hotel, yha), secure bike storage, bike wash, showers, cafe, waymarked trails, a range of graded trails, all weather trails, on site / local spares & repair, ability to tag routes together or ability to pick n mix routes to create longer options

for me personally (as a view, xc, natural, new place rider as opposed to dh/custom centre rider),
– accom – cheaper end, camp site, camping barn, hostel, self catering B&B/pub (pub with camoing etc), dorm hotel etc, within walking of other facilities
– eating – within walking, variety,
– trails – varied, accurately discribed in terms of distance and rideability by ability and climbs. I want to see scenery and some tech riding would be nice, enough trails for time in area without repeating, putting trails near or identify nearby scenery/architecture/spots of 'interest', eating places. As gf is a lot lower skill level it would be handy to have L = easy, M = hard, R = very hard, type trail branches that rejoin so we could both get round 'same' route and enjoy. Note that if a trail is one way that has some limitations – loops round a point/figures of 8 etc allow easy escape plans. I'd like a scenery rating – but guess thats pretty individual.
– route cards – OS Map format please, print offable.
-Route marking, please, please, please, please (repeat) have CLEARLY VISIBLE (unmovable by twatts) posts that have accurate N marker and grid ref embedded and the same number and track name as they have on the king route cards. Handy to know how long the unrideable (*by ability) bits are and climb details on each route.

– advice on integrated transport handy, – ie taxis that take bikes, trains, buses etc to make routes one way etc….

– any seasons to avoid/grouse/deer etc
– any tracks that fail under rain/etc ie seasonal conditions
– midge season info
???
cheers

Thanks guys – that is exactly the kind of input we need

Keep them coming please

I feel that promotion of remote routes needs backed up with reinforcement of trails. Some of the tracks up there are boggy at the best of times so shouldn't be promoted as a mass destination.

Perthshire is also en route to Laggan/Aviemore/Fort William, so unless you can match them for quality of riding you should promote the family-friendly routes.

How wide is your remit geographically? In the far West of Perthshire, you've got the Comrie Croft trails, relatively small but with a fantastically natural feel to them. Something like this I feel works, there's an already established hostel and campsite, they offer bike hire with drop-off to your accommodation and the hotels within Comrie itself are more suitable if you want to spend more. I just wish that the Comrie Croft was promoted to a wider audience as I feel it's an undiscovered gem of a place.

ease of access by non car drivers (train, buses with bike racks on back, mini bus pick ups)

Come on guys and girls. There are hundreds of you out there who who must have opinions. It doesn't matter whether you visit Scotland or not – what makes a good area is common everywhere surely.

As gusamc, has already said, good, reliable, hard to vandalise signposting/waymarking/route grading is an absolute priority if you want to tempt people beyond the "cycling gods of the STW massive". I moved from Scotland to the Isle of Wight a couple of years back and one of the things I find better about down here is that the bridleway/footpath network seems quite a bit better signposted.

Other blue-sky thinking wish list entries that might tempt the occasional mountain biker, or the mountain biker with reluctant other half who doesn't mind the idea of mountain biking but wants the rough edges taken off it:

Decent bike hire facilities – not everyone wants to travel with a bike in tow. Maybe with some from A to B component so that you could ride from, say, Dunkeld to Pitlochry, with luggage transfer, and not have to worry about getting the bike back to where you hired it from.

If you're going to promote routes try and do some with a decent pub/lunch spot at the halfway point of a there-and-back route, or at the end of a route.

Some kind of from-pub-to-accommodation bike and rider shuttle service. So for example, you could ride from Dunkeld to Pitlochry, pitch up at the Moulin Hotel, avail yourself of all that lovely beer, food and highland ambience for a few hours, and know there was a shuttle bus arriving at X o'clock that was going to deposit you back at or near your accommodation.

Promote wildlife/nature spotting routes, with the best time of year and locations to be in with a chance of seeing leaping salmon, rutting stags, mountain hares, turning maple leafs or whatever.

Thanks to querty, gusamc, Alasdairmc and StefMcDef for really helpful input. We actually have a good number of the facilities, but not widely known or brought together in one accessible point of information

Got to say I am really disappointed with the number of responses. I can't imagine how many forum readers want this kind of information, complain when its not available, but apparently can't help us to help you

For me (amd my mates):

We always tend to be a big group so we need accomodation for usually between 10 to 20 riders. This is often tricky to find.

We don't camp and prefer B&B or self catering.

A pub that does decent ale and food near to the accomodation is essential! We are very happy to invest in that part of any local economy we visit! 😉 Other eating options are a bonus e.g. cafe for breakfast, curry house etc

I don't know how you're planning on promoting it but I think this is a huge part of how popular it becomes – making it an option to look at on the local tourist info website helps. Here (in Austria) nearly every region has a seperate (free) biking guide. You could probably get some sent to the UK for free to have a look at. Normally A5 or smaller in size and containing all the sort of information you would need. Accomodation details – often as advertisments but also a simple list, places to eat (also ads), bike/hire shops, a list of food shops in remote areas, relevant telephone numbers, then route guides. Graded by length, technical ability, scenicness, but also basic details (distance, approx. time, total climb etc.). This makes it really easy to have all the information in one place, you need a map aswell but the book is light enough to take with you as a description.

Also as said above, how to get there by public transport (train, or if the busses take bikes) is really important.

For the trips I've done in the UK with groups, the best accomodation seemed to be either a single or nearby places that had a combination of B&B rooms, then either bunkhouse or camping, with a large (outside but covered) cooking place. This allowed the people who wanted more comfort to stay inside, and those people who weren't fussed or wanted to spend less to be essentially in the same place.

A big but maybe worthwhile battle would be to sort out the truly crappy train service up that way.

Two bike spaces per train, and you can't book between Edinburgh and Perth. Me and two mates wanted to take the road bikes up to Pitlochry, but even if there hadn't been other bikes on the train, we still wouldn't have been allowed to book.

Pretty daft considering said train also serves Blair Atholl, Aviemore and Inverness.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say the option to use some decent friendly guides.. (not the dib dib dob girls in uniforms)

I love exploring new places.. and the pioneering type feeling.. but it's possible to spend hours and hours or even days or weeks or months trundling around cautiously because you don't know the terrain..

With the option of going out as a guided group you can ride a trail at pace safe in the knowledge that you're not gonna come across anything unexpected.. and that you will be getting the best from a trail and not slogging up a good descent or taking the fireroad down when there's some parallel techy singletrack..

As an option it adds a valuable and very different aspect to any trails.

For the market you're after – families and beginner/intermediate groups – I think route waymarking is by far the most important thing.

People are used to just having to follow marker posts at other MTB holiday destinations and the absence of these will do a lot to deter them from trying your no-doubt-excellent riding.

Everyone is capable of booking a B&B or finding a pub, but not reading a map/following a route card.

Although from my POV, route cards sound like an excellent idea. Especially if giving a clue as to the technical grade and all-weather suitability of routes.

And I agree with Alpine Girl on publicity being key – people won't come if they don't know about it.

Talk to Visit Scotland (who are excellent and v well funded) about them paying to get journos to come and stay/write about it – as well getting in all their own-produced material.

Trails of each level with extra options for the next level up.

So you are riding along an easy trail and there is and extra half mile trail of medium riding that rejoins the easy trail.

This means groups of mixed ability can ride at the lowest level while there are still bits of interest for the better riders or short sections for people to try riding without having to commit to an entire trail that is more advanced than they are used to.

Quite a few people won't commit to doing an advanced trail because they fear they won't complete it or will hold everyone up. If they can try a 'taster' section they are the able to decide wether this is true or not.

To me – as others have said – make it all joined up

so the tourist info website and office have links / leaflets of the trails which are signposted on the ground. Make it all clear and simple.

I think your main market would be family friendly – so its views and points of interest as well as the trails. a little bit of history and geography of the areas.

I don't know Perthshire well – but themed trails – "Clearances road" – see the deserted villages or "history – neolithic to now" – that sort of thing. Pointing out the crannogs and the sheilings with a bit of the history of them. Doesn't need to be in great depth – nature stuff as well. its just to add a few points of interest on top of the biking.

I am recently back from walking up north and there were some signs and information posts that I found very interesting – an explanation of why there was a route over the hill – that sort of thing

you need to warn the BnB / bunkhouse owners that mountain bikers sometimes get muddy.

they can't claim to be 'mountain bike friendly' and then go ape-5hit-mental when they find some mud on the doorstep.

as a southerner, i have to point out that perthshire is about another 3 hours drive past all of the 7stanes, you need some seriously good trails to persuade us scumbags to not stop at Dumfries.

i'm an office-bound desk-jockey computer-geek, i need a website to look at, showing me trails, places to stay, etc.

bikeperthshire.com/radtrails/gnarlyrednumber3

etc.

as for accomodation: i look for places where 10 mates can stay for about £20 per night, without having to share beds. we don't want sky telly and all the trimmings if it means paying £50/night.

many of the bunkhouses and apartments around Glentress/inners are ideal.

trails: you need high-up-in-the-hills stuff for when the weather is good, and you need valley-bottom-woodland stuff for when it's wet and windy.

pubs: that are happy to see 12 bikers stagger in out of the weather, covered in grimness.

i wish you every success.

X

>I think route waymarking is by far the most important thing.<

Waymarking some of these remote / wilderness trails would be met with resistance on several fronts: MRT's, The M C of S and many ordinary hill users would all be against the further intrusion of mans hand on wild landscapes (and there are safety issues attendant with encouraging folk who might otherwise be ill equipped to deal with conditions)that is after all what draws many of us to these areas in the first place. There's also the issue, which someone else raised above, of who maintains the trails so the Landowners surely have to be involved…

Totally agree with 13th FM on the train situation – it's lamentable. We have this fantastic engineering heritage in the form of train lines which penetrate deep into the Highlands and we have god knows how many quangos and cycling organisations spending money promoting cycling but there are some very obvious fundamentals missing from the mtb jigsaw.

For example: did your group attend the SMBDC conference in Perth the other week? This quango has a project manager dedicated to assisting with very questions you pose. Visit Scotland,FCS,SE,HE,Cycling Scotland, Scottish Cycling, CTC and IMBA are all partners. I put up a post on here afew weeks back to see if anyone knew what was going / what they had achived thus far and I don't think there was a single response.

You should go to Aviemore, and Edale / Hope Valley and see what they do. Both biggish mountain bike destinations. Aviemore probably more like you, as it is a pain to get to from most places, whereas Hope Valley has a big location advantage being between a bunch of big cities.

Hope has good cafes and bike shops, no one minds about mud, and it is dead easy to get to by car or train. Great trails that are very easy to navigate.

Aviemore has great big hills for high rides, tons of family woodland riding, bike shops and tourist information places with loads of route maps so it is easy to navigate.

When I run group events, I look for campsites that allow all male groups or large groups, and don't require booking in advance.

In terms of B&B accommodation etc. it really needs to have access to a washing machine for anything over a weekend – otherwise the rooms start to smell, and you start running out of kit.

One thing you're unlikely to fix, is the generally low quality of food / beer in Scotland. Like when we walked the West Highland Way, there were a few decent places, but most of the places were just somewhere that heated up things in a microwave and charged you 7 quid for it, plus £3 for a pint of not very good beer. In a good few riding / climbing places I can think of, there are real destination cafes, which I'm sure bring in a lot of riders, by serving large portions of not too fancy home made food for not very much money (think Petes Eats in Llanberis, Lakeland Pedlar in Keswick, Woodbine Cafe in Hope, Outside in Hathersage for climbers). Having one or two cafes that don't suck and welcome bikes & have easy bike parking etc. would make a real difference.

Joe

Heather – Yes, I assumed as much re. opposition to waymarking – but he did ask.

A lot of people want their mountain bike trails commoditised, even if it's abhorrent to the hardy outdoorsmen who frequent STW.

TO appel to the none obsessed MTBer, someone just starting, reluctant other half.

As stated very well sign post trail.

Trails with a story / historical points of interest can be added to route card.

Cafe / pub stops for people to get out of the rain warm up and can cope with dirty bike riders.

Advertise the alternative things to do. It may be the case that the holiday is a compromise. one half of a couple want to go MTBing the other wants to do XYZ, let them know that your destination means they can spend 3 days MTBing and three days doing xyz

Bike washing / cloths washing / cloth drying facility's at accommodation. There is nothing more annoying than having to try and dry loads of socks on one small radiator.

Public transport information

A good local bike mechanic for many would be useful.

On the waymarking – I think that should only be done in the context of family friendly trails not the " real mtb stuff" ie estate roads / forestry tracks not singletrack in the main.

Captain, what group are you

re "This quango has a project manager dedicated to assisting with very questions you pose. Visit Scotland,FCS,SE,HE,Cycling Scotland, Scottish Cycling, CTC and IMBA are all partners."

as said above access to trail centres if you dont have a car is a nightmare

even if places do have a relatively nearby train station trains services tend to be poor at the weekend, especially on a sunday

and getting a bike on a bus is never going to happen

when glentress 1st opened the girls used to run a pick up service from edinburgh airport for us southerners to get there

a regular or bookable service like that would be ace

and getting a bike on a bus is never going to happen

Maybe they could speak to the local bus company about it? You can get attachments to the back of busses which about 6-8 bikes can be fixed to. They have them in west Wales on some of the longer routes. I can't imagine they would cost a fortune?

Another point for the accomodation is to see if they can set up a "drying room" – just a small warmish room with a bunch of clothes lines and hangers and pegs for shoes makes a huge difference (and maybe sink for rinsing mud off).

We've had folk hill walking and climbing in Scotland in large numbers for over 60 years – the catering and accommodation requirements really don't differ. There is a major problem with (non car)transportation of bikes so in the main I feel the mtb community needs to learn to get off its collective arse and get involved with those who can help change this. And yes, rather then signposting the wilderness – learn some mountaincraft and see if you can go do it for yourself.

I can just see the advert now…

Perthshire: Learn to read a bloody map!

Yeah, that's the strapline 😉

Thanks to everyone for all the input. A few comments:

Public transport up here is dysfunctional – the penalty of being pretty remote. The best we can probably do is to get the bigger groups like ones that convened the Perth talking shop event a couple of weeks ago to have a go at Scotrail. Another alternative shorter term is to promote logistics/luggage transport people like Go-Where

As per the original post, we are not going to try to compete with Glentress, Laggan etc – we are promoting natural trails into big remote scenery without needing ML grade navigation skills

The biggest common themes that we probably can tackle are:
Plenty of trails
Trails for differing abilities and fitness
Trails that can be bolted together to make longer outings
Good waymarking
Ride guides available locally and on the web
Good trail grading information
Info on points of interest other local activities, pubs, bike shops etc
Selection of B+B's/bunkhouses that offer drying/washing facilities
All information pulled together at least on a website if not as a printed guide

Very interesting is that people seem to think most of the trails here are boggy and difficult to navigate. Most aren't either, and we won't be promoting the ones that are.

Thanks again. Expect to see the results of our work later in the year. We will also try to give some info on local bike groups so you can join rides, or even hook up for kind of informal guiding.

In the meantime if you want any info, ping me a mail – address in profile