well there are magic pills if your that bothered?
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weight loss advice
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Posted 2 years ago #
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But you persist in taking in carb drinks, recovery drinks and coke - all sources large amounts of empty calories.
which is what is required to quickly replenish your muscles energy stores and stop them becoming fatigued which I acknowledge is not necessarily good for losing weight but if you want to exercise regularly at fairly intense levels is required.
In other words if your exercising to lose weight and increase strength/fitness its a difficult balancing act to loose weight and not feel fatigued.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Coke works as well as torq recovery
Is that what I said? Here, let me help you out:
I drink Torq recovery because on me it works significantly better than any of the other drinks
Why on God's earth would I pay a lot of money for something that I actually believed was only as good as coke? You are borderline insulting me by implying I am grossly stupid. I buy Torq because it works better than anything else I've tried. Explicit enough for you?
But you persist in taking in carb drinks, recovery drinks and coke - all sources large amounts of empty calories with a poor evidence base.
Did you read the links I posted?
Btw I've not seen you cite anything.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Molgrips just carry on as you are doing then. Don't be suprised that you are not losing weight.
Have you read those two citations? The first is poor science and poorly written at best. Most of the references do not come up on the net as they are two old, some of them are from very obscure journals of little validity, the ones that I can find are nothing to do with carb drinks or recovery drinks. Its most quoted source is this http://www.humankinetics.com/
molgrips I drink Torq recovery because on me it works significantly better than any of the other drinks. If I can't get that, I usually neck a can of coke, which also works quite well.
so actually any old sugar after exercise "works quite well"
EDIT - now here I am guessing about your diet but I bet you have taken insufficinet long acting carbs before your exercise, because of all the short acting carb drink you have taken you have had a huge insulin spike so you have a blood sugaer drop after exercise leading to the cravings for suger.
Try some long acting carbs instead before and during the exercise - sounds to me like a wildly fluctuating blood sugar level from all the short acting carbs. Might well not be right however but it must be worth a try.
Posted 2 years ago # -
so actually any old sugar after exercise "works quite well"
That's what I said, yes, since sugar is carbs. That's what I've always said and have said loads of times on this thread. However Torq works better for me. Get that?
Molgrips just carry on as you are doing then. Don't be suprised that you are not losing weight.
When I learned up on this stuff was when I lost 8kg in 4 months and had my best ever season, turning from a fat weekender into a racer.
Posted 2 years ago # -
http://journals.lww.com/acsm-msse/Fulltext/2009/03000/Nutrition_and_Athletic_Performance.27.aspx
Read this if you want, explains it all quite clearly but feel free to twist it to get your point across as you see fit.
POSITION STATEMENT
It is the position of the American Dietetic Association, Dietitians of Canada, and the American College of Sports Medicine that physical activity, athletic performance, and recovery from exercise are enhanced by optimal nutrition. These organizations recommend appropriate selection of food and fluids, timing of intake, and supplement choices for optimal health and exercise performance.
KEY POINTS
The following key points summarize the current energy, nutrient, and fluid recommendations for active adults and competitive athletes. These general recommendations can be adjusted by sports nutrition experts to accommodate the unique concerns of individual athletes regarding health, sports, nutrient needs, food preferences, and body weight and body composition goals.
Athletes need to consume adequate energy during periods of high-intensity and/or long-duration training to maintain body weight and health and maximize training effects. Low energy intakes can result in loss of muscle mass; menstrual dysfunction; loss of or failure to gain bone density; an increased risk of fatigue, injury, and illness; and a prolonged recovery process.
Body weight and composition should not be used as the sole criterion for participation in sports; daily weigh-ins are discouraged. Optimal body fat levels depend on the sex, age, and heredity of the athlete and may be sport-specific. Body fat assessment techniques have inherent variability and limitations. Preferably, weight loss (fat loss) should take place during the off-season or begin before the competitive season and involve a qualified sports dietitian.
Carbohydrate recommendations for athletes range from 6 to 10 g·kg-1 body weight·d-1 (2.7-4.5 g·lb-1 body weight·d-1). Carbohydrates maintain blood glucose levels during exercise and replace muscle glycogen. The amount required depends on the athlete's total daily energy expenditure, type of sport, sex, and environmental conditions. * Protein recommendations for endurance and strength-trained athletes range from 1.2 to 1.7 g·kg-1 body weight·d-1 (0.5-0.8 g·lb-1 body weight·d-1). These recommended protein intakes can generally be met through diet alone, without the use of protein or amino acid supplements. Energy intake sufficient to maintain body weight is necessary for optimal protein use and performance.
Fat intake should range from 20% to 35% of total energy intake. Consuming ≤20% of energy from fat does not benefit performance. Fat, which is a source of energy, fat-soluble vitamins, and essential fatty acids, is important in the diets of athletes. High-fat diets are not recommended for athletes. * Athletes who restrict energy intake or use severe weight-loss practices, eliminate one or more food groups from their diet, or consume high- or low-carbohydrate diets of low micronutrient density are at greatest risk of micronutrient deficiencies. Athletes should consume diets that provide at least the recommended dietary allowance (RDA) for all micronutrients.
Dehydration (water deficit in excess of 2-3% body mass) decreases exercise performance; thus, adequate fluid intake before, during, and after exercise is important for health and optimal performance. The goal of drinking is to prevent dehydration from occurring during exercise and individuals should not drink in excess of sweating rate. After exercise, approximately 16-24 oz (450-675 mL) of fluid for every pound (0.5 kg) of body weight lost during exercise.
Before exercise, a meal or snack should provide sufficient fluid to maintain hydration, be relatively low in fat and fiber to facilitate gastric emptying and minimize gastrointestinal distress, be relatively high in carbohydrate to maximize maintenance of blood glucose, be moderate in protein, be composed of familiar foods, and be well tolerated by the athlete.
During exercise, primary goals for nutrient consumption are to replace fluid losses and provide carbohydrates (approximately 30-60 g·h-1) for maintenance of blood glucose levels. These nutrition guidelines are especially important for endurance events lasting longer than an hour when the athlete has not consumed adequate food or fluid before exercise or when the athlete is exercising in an extreme environment (heat, cold, or high altitude).
After exercise, dietary goals are to provide adequate fluids, electrolytes, energy, and carbohydrates to replace muscle glycogen and ensure rapid recovery. A carbohydrate intake of approximately 1.0-1.5 g·kg-1 body weight (0.5-0.7 g·lb-1) during the first 30 min and again every 2 h for 4-6 h will be adequate to replace glycogen stores. Protein consumed after exercise will provide amino acids for building and repair of muscle tissue.
In general, no vitamin and mineral supplements are required if an athlete is consuming adequate energy from a variety of foods to maintain body weight. Supplementation recommendations unrelated to exercise, such as folic acid for women of childbearing potential, should be followed. A multivitamin/mineral supplement may be appropriate if an athlete is dieting, habitually eliminating foods or food groups, is ill or recovering from injury, or has a specific micronutrient deficiency. Single-nutrient supplements may be appropriate for a specific medical or nutritional reason (e.g., iron supplements to correct iron deficiency anemia).
Posted 2 years ago # -
This is also interesting since it suggests that protein and carbs may be more effective than carbs alone. Journal of Applied Physiology from 2002.
"These results suggest that a CHO-Pro supplement is more effective for the rapid replenishment of muscle glycogen after exercise than a CHO supplement of equal CHO or caloric content."
Not a good source?
Posted 2 years ago # -
Nice post rs.
Low energy intakes can result in loss of muscle mass; menstrual dysfunction; loss of or failure to gain bone density; an increased risk of fatigue, injury, and illness; and a prolonged recovery process.
Or just MTFU as STW wisdom would have it
Posted 2 years ago # -
Nice one RS
Seems actually quite reasonable and moderate Not advocating any supplements nor any snake oil - just a normal sort of diet making sure you get enough carbs. with some sensible quantifying of amountsPosted 2 years ago # -
It says what I've been saying TJ...
Here
During exercise, primary goals for nutrient consumption are to replace fluid losses and provide carbohydrates (approximately 30-60 g·h-1) for maintenance of blood glucose levels
And here:
After exercise, dietary goals are to provide adequate fluids, electrolytes, energy, and carbohydrates to replace muscle glycogen and ensure rapid recovery
You're a weird bloke sometimes, TJ.
Posted 2 years ago # -
My take on the above quoted stuff is that in order to maintain fitness and lose weight you do need the carbs/protein after exercise to prevent fatigue but the amount is entirely related to body weight and not the amount of exercise, therefore it kind of is just a case of moving more so that you do enough extra work to offset what you know you will take on post exercise.
Still undecided on the high intensity v's low intensity stuff, I think if you can do the high intensity stuff without feeling knackered thats the way forward, however if your not that fit in the first place you have to slowly build up the intensity.
Posted 2 years ago # -
For HIIT to work do you have to do the high intensity in succession? I am 35 and a hiit calculator on the web says that I should be aiming at:
Min for HIIT is: 166.5 BPM
and Active Rest Intervals = 120.25.
Now I know when I am biking the top figure 166.5 is when I am pushing myself teeny a bit and 120.25 is when I am biking steady with next to no effort. A big climb would be 175+. Now my thinking is the nature of where I ride is short but steep hills. So my question is what is HIIT like done over 5/6 hour periods. For instance a normal mountain bike ride.
I had a look at the Food Focus web site. The food calculator made me laugh. Everything food item is a ready meal.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Ok molgrips - this all went on a long way from my original point which was that you have to have a negative energy balance to lose weight. I have not disputed what you quote in your last post at all.
However I suspect you are consuming too many short acting carbs and too much sugar thus upsetting your insulin metabolism and that you will not lose weight unless you reduce your carb intake. All that suger and the insulin spikes is making you hungry. Oats and other starches would reduce your hunger for the same amount of carbs
Have a reread of tribalcheifs posts seeing as you give no credence to anything I say
Posted 2 years ago # -
over 5/6 hours it isn't HIIT - won't give the same physiological response
forget about heart rates for HIIT, by the time your heart gets out of bed and gets it's pants on the interval is over - max effort, some pacing for 1-2 min efforts
Posted 2 years ago # -
So one long bike ride at the weekend and then 4 20min sessions of sprinting and jogging in the park. Sounds doable with two kids.... Instead of 20 mins sitting at the computer.
Just find it hard not to eat too much ice cream, though I am not that bothered about getting thinner more about getting a bit fitter.
Posted 2 years ago # -
geda - yeah, and after a while you'll lose a load of fat and all interest in ice cream
Posted 2 years ago # -
t®ibal©hief - Member
OK, you're right Molgrips, what would I know, what with you working in IT and me having earned a living lecturing exercise physiology, presenting at fitness conventions and coaching people who won pretty major titles in quite a few sports...On a lighter note, I think molgrips working in IT might know more about HIIT than TribalChief
Posted 2 years ago # -
All that suger and the insulin spikes is making you hungry. Oats and other starches would reduce your hunger for the same amount of carbs
Well, again as I understand it, that stuff about insulin spikes is valid when you are at rest. When you're exercising it works differently... which is why athletes use maltodextrin powder which has a very high GI.. Am I right tc? Oats and medium GI stuff takes more energy to digest, and whilst exercising you need all your energy to your muscles...
Posted 2 years ago # -
No I love ice cream. I think it was something about growing up on a farm with a jersey cow. Cream and cornflakes for breakfast everyday. I thought cold milk was weird when I first went to school.
Thanks for the advice anyway. I have been doing intense sessions of wheelie, manual and bunnyhop practise in the park but could do with doing some running as well.
Posted 2 years ago # -
So where does cake fit into all of this?
Posted 2 years ago # -
Oats and medium GI stuff takes more energy to digest
no, it's just slower release due to the physical structure - you get the same amount of calories, moreover, not to labour the point, a large intake of low GI starch will result in the same (or bigger) boost in blood sugar as a small amount of high GI sugar
Remember, even pasta has a GI of 30, so it digests at 1/3rd of the rate of pure glucose, so 3 times as much - which would be far easier to eat - would result in the same intake rate of glucose.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Join Weight Watchers and stick to it. Job done.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Molgrips don't know if this will helps or hinders your point but it works for me.
When I was working to lose weight I restricted my 'calories in' all the time except the night before, during and immediately after my big w/e ride.
When I did that, coupled with a pretty strict diet through the week and shorter exercise session I made great progress (5 stone in around 18 months). I had the energy to exercise and work hard enough to make significant progress.
If I restricted the food in and around those big sessions I was a wreck (for days). Whether that was real or in my head is largely immaterial
Posted 2 years ago # -
Taz, that makes sense but I'm training 4 or 5 times a week usually... I kind of do what you said, but supplementing using carb and recovery drinks rather than big meals.
Posted 2 years ago # -
It's not as simple as burning more calories than you take in, as if you drop your calorie intake too low when doing a lot of exercise it has been shown to be counter-productive, and the weight loss can stop, due to slowing down the metabolism.
Posted 2 years ago # -
gazza100 - Member
Join Weight Watchers and stick to it. Job done.That is precisely what I don't understand! By counting my calories the way I do, I was trying to effectively create my own weightwatchers. But it clearly doesn't work as simply as that. Hence my experience.
For the all the back-and-forth that has been going on on this thread, it is clear that some posters still haven't read what I first wrote. It CAN'T be as simple as calories in/calories out, as I have just spent five weeks taking in fewer calories than I have been burning, and after 5 kgs, nothing has happened.
Since I first posted, I have upped my intensity in different ways, though, so we will see what happens over the next few weeks.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Saxon Rider
When I lost a lot of weight I hit several 'plateau's'. My only advice is don't be a slave to the scales and remember as you get fitter you will generally burn fewer calories doing your daily stuff.
Keep watching what you eat, slowly up your volume & / or intensity of exercise and try to be consistent. Slow & steady progress is definitely the best way to go for the long term.
For me mixing my exercise regime up (MTB, bike commute, running, swimming, weights, touch rughy, squash) worked best. Mainly due to keeping me mentally fresh & keen to keep going.
Posted 2 years ago # -
It's not as simple as burning more calories than you take in, as if you drop your calorie intake too low when doing a lot of exercise it has been shown to be counter-productive, and the weight loss can stop, due to slowing down the metabolism.
It might alter the efficiency and physical symptoms that you see, but it won't stop the weight loss, otherwise no-one would ever starve to death
You could try telling that theory to the concentration-camp veterans, they were really committed to the lie of severe weight loss while staved and made to exercise 
Posted 2 years ago # -
as I have just spent five weeks taking in fewer calories than I have been burning
The thing is, you don't know how many calories you've been burning up. How've you been estimating it? Your body varies its metabolism, and will slow down thereby reducing your daily requirement. There are ways of estimating your basal metabolic rate (BMR), you can google them.
The oft-quoted figure of 2500 calories for men is a wild stab in the dark.
Posted 2 years ago # -
round and round in circles.
if you have really truly been taking in fewer calories than you have been burning for the last five weeks.............
Posted 2 years ago # -
Posted 2 years ago # -
It's not as simple as burning more calories than you take in, as if you drop your calorie intake too low when doing a lot of exercise it has been shown to be counter-productive, and the weight loss can stop, due to slowing down the metabolism.
It might alter the efficiency and physical symptoms that you see, but it won't stop the weight loss, otherwise no-one would ever starve to death You could try telling that theory to the concentration-camp veterans, they were really committed to the lie of severe weight loss while staved and made to exerciseThe show I saw it on was a weight loss show and the people had dropped their calorie intake to around 600 calories a day, thinking that the less they take in the less they then have to burn off, but their weight loss plateaued. The trainer told them that because they were working out around 6 hours a day, they needed to take in at least 2000 calories a day to keep their metabolism working properly.
I'm only passing on what I heard, and it depends on circumstances, but its things like this that show it isnt as simple as often made out.
Posted 2 years ago # -
I wouldn't be able to get out of bed with 600 calories a day! did someone say donuts?
Posted 2 years ago # -
I was in the same position and couldnt lose the weight. Hit 15 stone 10 and decided to join. They work out how many points you need by means of a simple calculation using age, height and weight. Foods (except certain veg) and drinks are awarded a points value for a given portion and you eat what you want until you reach your daily points allowance.
Lost a stone in 6 weeks and my eating habits have changed. If i want a sweet or a takeaway, then i have it and deduct it from my points allowance. If I exceed my daily allowance then I use less for the rest of the week so it balances out.
Posted 2 years ago # -
molgrips - Member
Taz, that makes sense but I'm training 4 or 5 times a week usually... I kind of do what you said, but supplementing using carb and recovery drinks rather than big meals.
Have you stopped to work out how much sugar you are having a week? If you are having a couple of litres of maltodexrtrin based energy drinks and a litre of maltodextrin based recovery drink you could be getting thru more than half a kilo of sugar a week - maybe even a kilo
Posted 2 years ago #
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