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1. cynic-al - Member

   After my "duff waterproof" thread I thought I'd better test it to check it was actually deficient. (I'd got wet under it after a leisurely 20m spin in light rain.)

   I had to ride into town again so I wore it with the same jumper on underneath, rode at roughly the same pace, on a cold and crisp evening. Turns out that was enough to generate a decent amount of sweat! (less than before though, which I presume is due to the dryness and coldness). I then wore it in the shower, and it appears to be waterproof.

   So it seems (a) DWR lasts **** all time and (b) breathability is still inadequate (albeit this was a £100 Jacket)

   (a) - treating and tumble-drying still the ways to go?
   (b) - do expensive fabrics breathe well enough to make them worth buying?

   Posted 5 months ago #
2. esselgruntfuttock - Member

   I've learnt (learned?) after 21 years of riding that....
   If it's raining & one is sweating a fair bit, one IS going to get wet.
   If one doesn't get wet under this scenario then one isn't pedalling hard enough.
   I concentrate on keeping warm.

   Posted 5 months ago #
3. steezysix - Member

   Pertex is the way to go unless it's chucking down, even then if you have decent base layers you can still be "comfortable". The problem is, waterproofs breathe best when it's cold and dry outside (when you don't need one) and as soon as the face fabric wets out, no moisture can get out. I don't wear one unless it's unavoidable.

   Posted 5 months ago #
4. nealglover - Member

   Which jacket do you have, and how did you wash/dry it ?

   Did you use anything to wash it it in other than powder ?

   Posted 5 months ago #
5. PeterPoddy - Member

   No fabric can breath anywhere near as fast as your skin can sweat. Being wet isn't a problem. Being warm (or cool) enough is.

   Posted 5 months ago #
6. FOG - Member

   PP is right, the modern fabrics that say they are breathable certainly are but their transpiration rates are way, way below the rate needed to clear the moisture produced by an average human performing even fairly mild exercise. So once again its all about compromise, which breathable fabric is most efficient,to keep down moisture as much as possible. Hopefully somebody will be along in a minute with the figures to tell us which. As I understand it E-vent is most efficient but Gore is more durable.

   Posted 5 months ago #
7. druidh - Member

   The figures for the new GoreTex Active Shell look very good indeed and my experience from my one ride wearing it seems to bear that out. Previously, eVent was reckoned to be the most breathable waterproof.

   I'm hypothesising that the other issue here is one of dew point. If the jacket is cold enough, the water vapour you are generating will condense on the inside of the jacket before it can pass through the membrane. Once that happens, you can't get rid of it. There might be an argument for fewer/thinner layers underneath the jacket so that your body heat will keep it warm.

   Remember the Gore N2S fabric - whatever happened to that?

   Posted 5 months ago #
8. iainc - Member

   agree with PP and FOG. I love my Endura Stealth - it is reasonably waterproof (it's been washed a dozen times and regularly reproofed, but the dwr is crap)and fairly windproof.....but - you don't half chill down if you stop for a bit. On really wet and or cold days I stick with layers - at least 2, under an Altura React shell. This is warmer than the Stealth, primarily I think because I have more underneath to dry/soak sweat and let air flow.

   Posted 5 months ago #
9. stevenmenmuir - Member

   One of these over the top of some merino

   GROUND EFFECT SUB MERINO

   It has a tougher polyester layer with Merino on the inside which I feel gives the best of both worlds.
   A few weeks ago I was out on a night ride with a couple of layers of Merino on, pretty consistently damp, not pouring down but wet. I could just brush most of the water off and stayed nice and warm. If we had had to stop for any length of time I'd have put my waterproof on.

   Posted 5 months ago #
10. druidh - Member

    I think you got the wrong link there Steven

    Posted 5 months ago #
11. stevenmenmuir - Member

    Nope, it's what I wear most and in all weathers. I know it's not waterproof but it keeps the worst out and keeps me warm. I'm now thinking a pertex layer for when it's wet and leave the waterproof for situations where I'm mostly going to be standing about.

    Posted 5 months ago #
12. crazy-legs - Member

    I've had the same, tried several waterproofs from the ultra thin ones right up to full on lined jackets and the only one I like is the Endura UltraLite (I think it's now been altered and renamed the PacLite or something?) Otherwise I've not got on with any of them. Partly it's cos I'm fussy about the features partly cos they're just too hot and sweaty.

    I've settled for softshell as the best compromise, got a Rapha Softshell and an Endura Stealth that both see regular use. Been using the Stealth for commuting recently and been warm and dry even in snow/sleet flurries.

    Posted 5 months ago #
13. Rickos - Member

    I'm looking for something that's merely showerproof at the moment on the assumption that it won't hold sweat as well as a full on waterproof jacket. Endura Rebound seems to be the ticket (Christmas present). I don't really need a full on waterproof as virtually all my riding is in the forest where the rain doesn't really soak you quite as much.

    Posted 5 months ago #
14. steezysix - Member

    If the jacket is cold enough, the water vapour you are generating will condense on the inside of the jacket

    Unfortunately, the thing Gore and Event and all the other manufacturers fail to point out is that we don't produce water vapour through out skin, so much as water. This is why a good base layer is crucial as it draws moisture off the skin and allows it to condense , then pass through the fabric.

    Andy Kirkparick has some interesting clothing articles - it's mainly aimed at climbers, but a lot of it is relevant to bikers too.

    Posted 5 months ago #
15. epicyclo - Member

    I tend to ride in a thick wooly jumper at this time of year (eg today in the snow) with a merino t-shirt under. I wear a gillet over it. If it starts getting really wet, I chuck a lightweight Montane pertex top over it all. That keeps me warm and on the dry side of dampish.

    Other times I wear a Rab VapourRise with a IceBreaker merino t-shirt, and if I get cold I put a Paramo gillet (Primaloft) over that.

    Road riding is different, higher speeds = more wind chill, so a more windproof top is desirable.

    Posted 5 months ago #
16. cynic-al - Member

    Imteresting...Neal I used soap flake but did nothing to regenerate the DWR.

    On these rides I had a wooly jumper on and felt dryish, so it was doing a good job of wicking. Way to heavy for a proper ride though.

    N2S/windstopper seems the way to go then, as I thought!

    EDIT - Steven is that submerino windproof?

    Posted 5 months ago #
17. stevenmenmuir - Member

    It's not windproof, but it's not often I feel the need for a windproof over the top of it. But I don't feel the cold much when I'm biking.

    Posted 5 months ago #
18. kudos100 - Member

    I've learnt (learned?) after 21 years of riding that....
    If it's raining & one is sweating a fair bit, one IS going to get wet.
    If one doesn't get wet under this scenario then one isn't pedalling hard enough.
    I concentrate on keeping warm.

    Is one secretly the queen, masquerading as a mountain biker?

    Posted 5 months ago #
19. shedbrewed - Member

    Buffalo teclite shirt for me. Don't need to worry about anything underneath it really and it is wind and shower proof and easy to reproof washing with nikwax polar proof. Can't go wrong.

    Posted 5 months ago #
20. onewheeltoofew - Member

    ^wot he said. Buffalo have had the right idea for years. There's no point gong for 'breathable' fabrics on a mountainbike, just get something that dries quickly and keeps you warm when it's wet.

    Posted 5 months ago #
21. Van Halen - Member

    i`ve just got a endura convert.

    when its lashing it down i like to keep the cold rain off. i dont mind getting a bit sweaty in these instances (4mile uphill home). i have a shower proof but for extended periods in pouring rain its not plesent.

    when its damp use it like a gillet. keeps the breeze, and wet crud, off your core but having no arms means its cool.

    softshells are waaay too hot for me.

    Posted 5 months ago #
22. BigJohn - Member

    I pondered this at the weekend when we were away on a 3 day trip biking in Innerleithen and Glentress.

    Some of the time it felt colder (around freezing plus or minus a couple of degrees) than it did at last years Christmas trip to the lakes (around -10 most of the time) because it was a bit damp at times.

    If you wrap up warm in the bottom car park then start out with a non-stop brisk ride to the top of Spooky Wood (thanks a bunch Scruff, I was planning on at least a breather at Buzzards Nest) then you're going to sweat a bit.

    When you start going downhill, that sweat is going to take a long time to dry. Whatever happens, you've got a lot of time riding in wet clothes.

    Fortunately I had a couple of layers of Rapha Merino under my waterproofs but had there been a lot of hanging about I would have started to feel it.

    I came to the conclusion that it's better to keep unzipping and delayering on the climbs to cut the sweating down to an absolute minimum, and staying dry that way.

    Or am I missing the point?

    Posted 5 months ago #
23. stevenmenmuir - Member

    It's the Buffalo system that puts me off soft shells. I have a Buffalo mountain shirt which I'd never normally contemplate wearing on the bike, I often find it too warm when just doing normal levels of exercise. I wore it a lot last winter when it was well below zero but as it's an all or nothing item I prefer the flexibilty of layers. I don't like the feeling I get when I'm too warm in my Buffalo, knowing that I can't take it off either. The thinner one may be a lot more useful though.

    Posted 5 months ago #
24. shedbrewed - Member

    Mountain shirt is probably too heavy even fully vented unless you are standing around a lot. Fine for walking but not for cycling. I'm a big fan of buffalo system and have been using the stuff since '95 when I bought my first belay jacket, which I still use. The teclite stuff fills a nice gap and the ripstop pertex seems to take to polar proof really well.

    Posted 5 months ago #
25. Terry - Member

    As mentioned, if you need a rainproof jacket which is able to breathe Event is the way to go. RAB uses this garment/technique, and the quality is good.
    But I always get wet due to sweat, so a dry spare merino shirt in the backpack.

    Posted 5 months ago #
26. dan1980 - Member

    Breathability with regards to waterproofs is a complete marketing con.

    A waterproof membrane acts as a semi-permeable barrier between the humid air inside the jacket and the air outside. For the jacket to "breath" you want to get rid of the humid air inside. Ideally you need a situation whereby the air on the outside of the jacket is less humid than the air inside, so the water vapor will move through the membrane, to try and achieve an equal amount of humidity either side. (Water will move from an area of high concentration to an area of low concentration) When it rains the air is pretty humid, so there's little movement of water vapor from the inside, to the outside of the jacket, hence the jacket can't breath very well.

    The point of DWR is to try and keep liquid water off the surface of the jacket, and away from the membrane, as there will be much less (practically none) movement of water vapor across it if there's a layer of liquid water on the other side.

    If you wear a waterproof when it's raining, you will get wet, whether it's from the precipitation, or your own sweat.

    Posted 5 months ago #
27. chiefgrooveguru - Member

    The Nikwax Analogy stuff Paramo do really does breathe incredibly well and is waterproof. However most of their items aren't terribly well cut, especially for MTBing (too loose in the body, too narrow in the shoulders / short on the arms).

    I have a Velez which gets used for MTBing in hideous conditions and performs brilliantly. The Quito looks better still (slimmer cut with longer sleeves). Sadly the rest of the range is targeted towards middle-aged walkers with spread to match...

    Posted 5 months ago #
28. matt_outandabout - Member

    Nikwax analogy is indeed the shizzle in cool, damp conditions (80% of time in Scotland...), shame that Paramo cut is awful and poorly executed features. Still the jacket I would buy for work every time mind - oh, funny that as I just ordered 15 smocks for staff uniform

    I also think that many jackets have too many faffy features and double/triple layers of fabric.
    More seams = more taping, reducing breathable area.
    More layers (e.g. where pockets are) = reduced breathability.
    Poor cut and lack of venting is also an issue, even in some top end jackets.
    Lack of cleaning really affects breatheability IME, as does poor DWR.

    Posted 5 months ago #
29. stilltortoise - Member

    +1 for Paramo.

    I've had Paclite, eVent and various others and Paramo is the only waterproof/breathable that I've not been disappointed with.

    Posted 5 months ago #

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