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Cotic Soda R.I.P
2011 Cove Hummer insurance replacement
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R.I.P
Poo
Strange place to crack and plenty of seatpost in frame.
MM
for some reason i think ive seen a few other pics of titanium frames fail there 😕 ill try and see if i can find the thread...
I've seen one go just there before. Silverfish will see you right.
I don't buy into the ti bike for life thing. We buy them because they are light and shiny. They break like everything else.
steel is real
[url= http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/cracked-titanium-frame ]here we go[/url], near the bottom of the page.
sorry for your loss, isnt it a warranty job for cotic?
Yeah, steel never breaks...
Who built the soda and hummer?
Yup, had a Ti frame crack exactly there before.
No more ££££ Ti frames for me anymore.
i may be wrong but I think its the weld interface between the 4 tubes that joint there - all that heat weakens it.
'Ti, bike for life' is an internet forum myth that the doe-eyed fanboys use to reassure their buying choices.
titanium fatigues and breaks as much as any other frame material.
blimey 😮
That's the 4th or 5th I've seen in exactly that spot
Yep ti breaks, which is why I like having a lifetime warranty
i reckon that the only 'bike for life' would be a kona clump tubed hardtail.
the hoss or shred type of frame is pretty indestructable, i have never seen tubing as thick!
I know they are not for life...thought it would be a good title 😉
The soda was out of warranty when it broke so had to claim on insurance. They wouldn't deal with Cotic so ended up with the hummer. It's a great bike and I'm a bit gutted!
Float...thanks for the link. Notice who started that thread too 😉
Hopefully Silverfish will sort me ok and they have a frame in stock! It has a 5 year warranty so should be fine. Have some pics to send the shop tomorrow.
MM
ive got an old Kona King Kahuna that cracked there as well. sorry to see that bud, i know your pain 🙁
Yep ti breaks, which is why I like having a lifetime warranty
Doesn't mean a lot unfortunately.
"all things considered, we consider 4 years of use is an acceptable lifetime for a mtb frame."
The email said something along those lines anyway.
Had a Lynskey go there too. Mine was along the bead of the weld. Too much heat in the weld???
My 2010 Lynskey went there too. They've really beefed the seat tube sleeve up on the replacement/new models.
steel is real
WTF is this meant to mean? What does it mean? NOTHING. NOTHING AT ALL.
Does it imply that other substances are somehow a figment of our imagination?
MM - it's that Epping Mud, dangerous stuff. Sorry to see this - Odd how the Tinbred in your group is still going strong all these years yet not your Ti frames. Good luck with Silverfish.
Thats why you don't buy cheap Ti frames, How many Moots, Kish or Serotta's do you ever see cracked? None!
yhedoctor - probably due to their infrequent numbers too.....
How many Moots, Kish or Serotta's do you ever see cracked? None!
spurious internet rumour.
Thats why you don't buy cheap Ti frames, How many Moots, Kish or Serotta's do you ever see cracked? None!
Its cos the people who buy those sorts of frames dont actually ride them.
Theres a guy on here who has a daft amount (7 or 8 i think) titanium bikes. I bet they barely cover any miles at all.
To those above, buy cheap poorly made Ti frames and expect the worst, but a well made Ti frame and it will last, end of, anybody who thinks differently is an IDIOT!
You're a bloody devils advocate you are. I dont believe you believe what you're on about.
Buy cheap buy twice. Still riding a 94 ti frame. Ti might not be for life but chances are if you buy a decent one it'll last a damn site longer than most other materials, Steel maybe exception.
so litespeed and lynskey are cheap and incapable , hahahahaha....
didn't take much looking cracked moots
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so litespeed and lynskey are cheap and incapable
Dur yes!
didn't take much looking cracked moots
Incorrect assembly by monkeys doesn't count
You're a bloody devils advocate you are. I dont believe you believe what you're on about.
oh i believe he does 🙄
thedoctor - incapable..............................? hahahahahahaha....
who are you ? valentino, n'est ce pas 🙂
I have a 2004 moots smoothie Al, that I dont beat on at all...I baby this bike. I cracked first on the rear triangle, where the right chainstay meets the pivot assembly. This was a known weak spot on [i]these bikes so I wasnt all that surprised to have it happen.I had it fixed, and began riding again. I was very surprised to find a 3 inch long crack on the front triangle along the weld where the downtube, seattube, and BB assembly come together!! This happened only 3 rides after the rear triangle was repaired. I never thought I would say this, but I wish I would have bought a trek or cannondale instead of a moots!!!! Because they offer lifetime warranties on all their frames!! I dont understand why moots only offers a 2 year warranty on Al products!?!?! It just doesnt make sense. Its like they are building a weak product and they know it!!! [/i]
from mtbr
google search of...
site:forums.mtbr.com cracked moots
1060 results, which i suggest is quite a few for an uncommon bike.
I've seen more Lynskey-made frame failures than all other brands put together.
I've seen more Lynskey-made frame failures than all other brands put together.
Except Lappiere and Commencal
I mean "in the flesh", not pictures on t'internet.druidh - Member
I've [b]seen[/b] more Lynskey-made frame failures than all other brands put together.
I've seen more Lynskey-made frame failures than all other brands put together.
Did Lynskey make the Soda then?
😉
Geeky post alert. That's a shame. I checked [url= http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Hbo8dI4CqVAC&pg=PR14&lpg=PR14&dq=ti+fatigue&source=bl&ots=HPou_HflgM&sig=Zc6-b4pjZ9Ty8sYmva7rjcFfAmY&hl=en&sa=X&ei=HEAcT_-HL5P78QP4hJW8Cw&sqi=2&ved=0CEQQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=ti%20fatigue&f=false ]fatigue life of Ti[/url] I think it's wrought on page 455 which is the one we're looking at in bike frames, thiough someone might tell me otherwise.
Anyway it does fatigue, although I can't be bothered to work out what those graphs mean in bike frames. I remember in my materials lectures being told that it has a very high crack propogation, so small cracks will quickly become big ones, even scratches. Luckily it's very hard so they don't get scratched too much.
Seeing all the cracked Ti frames on here has put me off ever buying one.
[i]Seeing all the cracked Ti frames on here has put me off ever buying one. [/i]
No worries, just go and in invest in a nice alloy Commonfail instead...
It's good to see fred back.
Bike for life was what the mags used to say back in the 90s. nobody believes it now we can see all the cracked frames on the internet, do they?
Bike for life was what the mags used to say back in the 90s. nobody believes it now we can see all the cracked frames on the internet, do they?
if it has a lifetime warranty why not? you just get "refreshed" every few years if it fails 😉
It might have been true in the 90s that a Ti bike was a bike for life but we are all riding bigger stuff now, i mean 140-150mm travel forks on a ti hardtail? back then it was 50mm
and yes i do have said 140mm travel ti hardtail and cringe everytime i read these threads 😯
You probably could build a modern, long travel ti bike-for-life. But nobody'd buy it because it'd be heavier than all these ti bikes-for-slightly-longer-than-the-warranty
My ti bike must be from the early / mid 90s - an all welded raleigh sps one.
Seems to be OK - and its had a hard life
Tend to agree with Haggis on this though my Litespeed made Hummer from 2004 is still going strong .It's been to Whistler,Morzine and Santa Cruz , Lake tahoe area .(Mind i ride it in a semi retired way now !)
TJ - you are very lucky if your welded Raleigh Ti didn't crack!
I've known 3 people with them and all 3 have cracked (in quite weird places).
2 (both owned by fairly lightweight women) cracked on the rear seatstay wishbone. Both replaced under Raleigh lifetime warranty (unfortunately with painted Ti frames because that was all they had left).
The 3rd one was actually an X-Lite (basically the Raleigh frame with a matt blasted / etched finish). It fatigue cracked almost right round the downtube about an inch behind the head tube weld (edge of haz?). Unfortunately it didn't have the same warranty so got welded (and after a number of years has just cracked and been welded again slightly further along the downtube). If this one was mine then it would have been retired by now......
I don't think price has anything to do with durability of Ti frames. Mrs has a Parkpre Ti from 1995 (which would have been an early days Taiwan manufactured model - not the most promising heritage). It did a few years racing elite XC and downhill, a UCI worlds and many years of heavy use. Apart from a dent in the top tube (courtesy of Air New Zealand) it is still totally crack free.
Never been able to actually work out which year / model mine is - painted blue and with disc mounts
My Hummer did the same, same model as yours.
Fortunately it was the 2nd time for me, so when the standard repair option was put forward my LBS was able to be a bit more pushy.
...ill try and see if i can find the thread...
[url= http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/ive-broken-4-frames-in-13-months-recommend-me-a-29er-hardtail ]This one ?[/url]
Hi all TI fan boys,
I had a beautiful Merlin XLM 04 - I rode it hard on epic xc stuff - 80/100mm travel and never pranged a wheel and I way sub 74kg all kitted up....
It had a new headtube and down tube as it cracked on the down tube ( with 80mm forks ) - it lasted 2 more years and last year it cracked exactly in the same place as the OP - through the weld etc with a short seatpost with massive overlap - I had it welded at Enigma cycles and crack stoppers drilled etc - It lasted no time at all and it cracked again - same place - Enigma warned me this may happen - it did and they did a good job.
Stuff like this happens in mtbing - however my ancient steel konas / RMs never cracked...
Ti does break and I know a number of bust TI frames. Ti isnt the holy grail of materials... Would i hvae another? Yes in a heartbeat as the ability to polish the frame up is nice - they ride well and look stunning. Can I afford one? Not really and I am loving my steel bikes again...
my 2ps worth.
All this repair talk has me worried. Shouldn't the frame be replaced under warranty?
I've owned it about 15 months
MM
My understanding is that Ti is an extraordinary material which (in theory) should be perfect for bike frames ....however, it is a pig to work with and weld whilst maintaining its good qualities hence just as many failures as Alu and Steel.
Bikes take a hell of a hammering - the forces generated in all sorts of directions are very difficult to contain
I've broken steel, aluminium and titanium. It happens, get used to it
I've avoided carbon as i don't fancy the catastrophic failure when it goes - i've still got the scars from some early carbon bars which failed on me
However, i've got a titanium Raleigh Dyna-tech Torus from 1994 and its had a hell of a hard life and is still going strong
I was quite pleased when i managed to crack my Zesty frame within 6 months - they replaced it without question mind
I punish my bike hard - that's what its built for
If they didn't break, then you wouldn't have a genuine reason to buy a new bike... 😀
TJ - you might be OK - I remember the bare ti ones were being raced 95-96-97 ish. The blue painted ones were what they got as warranty replacements (think they were near the last ones they made - vaguely remember maybe 1998 - 1999 ish). Maybe they rectified something in the production process?
What does seem common is that a lot of the Ti cracks seem to appear near to the welds but not along or in them. A lot of the cracked aluminium frames I've seen (but not all of them) cracked along the edges or through of welds.
I too fell for hey, it's worth it, Ti bikes are "for life" (in this case, a matching pair of Marin Team Ti's which both broke at exactly the same place).
While Ti might have a theoretically infinite fatigue life, clearly the welds don't.
And Marin's lifetime warranty on both the bikes (which I bought full-price, new) came down to "phone a good welder".
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Ta Mick
My blue painted Raleigh Ti lasted 6 months...the (aluminium) Zaskar that replaced it is still going strong 15 years later.
And Marin's lifetime warranty on both the bikes (which I bought full-price, new) came down to "phone a good welder".
not the first time I've heard about Marin not honouring their warranty 🙁
It's funny because my previous bike, a Kona Hei Hei, I had for 14 years and it was awesome. I only sold it because I wanted something that would take a longer fork. I love the Hummer that I replaced it with, however I'm not sure that it'll last 14 years like the kona did for me, I've just seen too many failures.
[url= http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3109/2574207242_7f45618003.jp g" target="_blank">
[url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/jimbosussexmtb/2574207242/ ]2008_0506_183833AA[/url] by [url= http://www.flickr.com/people/jimbosussexmtb/ ]www.sussex-mtb.com[/url], on Flickr
The old Kona, wish I'd kept it
[url= http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5224/5691066725_93281caa33.jp g" target="_blank">
[url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/jimbosussexmtb/5691066725/ ]IMAG0557[/url] by [url= http://www.flickr.com/people/jimbosussexmtb/ ]www.sussex-mtb.com[/url], on Flickr
The Hummer, it's an awesome bike
Nahh ... too much hype surrounding Ti so I am sticking to steel 853 or even one grade down is fine.
🙂
Out of all the frames I've designed, percentage-wise, the Morning Glory has had the most failures (10%). The rest of the range are around or below 1%.
However, I don't think it's totally fair to compare old school Ti frames lasting decades to new school frames which don't last more than a few years, as riding has moved on, you're encouraged to fit longer forks, bigger tyres and generally do/attempt more outrageous things than people were doing back in the dayglo lycra era.
PeterPoddy -
'steel is real'
WTF is this meant to mean? What does it mean? NOTHING. NOTHING AT ALL.Does it imply that other substances are somehow a figment of our imagination?
Chill Winston!
No, of course it doesnt mean other substances are a figment of your imagination, just that they are shit.
Keep it steel, steel is the real deal for feel.
It means everything.
Plus, it rhymes nicely doesnt it. 'Aluminum is Bloomin (stiff)'. 'Carbon is going to kill you eventually'. Not quite the same ring.
'Ti is Fly'?
Word.
Nahh ... too much hype surrounding Ti so I am sticking to steel 853 or even one grade down is fine.
And there's no hype to 853?, or heaven forbid, one grade down?
At least the hype is deserved though, eh? steel is real.
MountainMutant - I just found a crack in exactly the same place as yours. My bike is a 2010 model but was purchased in march 2012!!!!!!! Not happy, how did you get on with it being replaced?
but I wish I would have bought a trek or cannondale instead of a moots!!!! Because they offer lifetime warranties on all their frames!! I dont understand why moots only offers a 2 year warranty on Al products!?!?!
cannondale's definition of lifetime of the first owner doesn't live up to the promise
Going back to the original post and the odd crack in the soda.
I've seen another ti frame crack in this exact way (dialled morning glory)
Using a dentist's mirror I was able to see that the crack had propigated from the "breather hole" (for gas purge during weld?) of the down tube, where it meets the top tube (sorry for crap explanation). So the crack spanned the down tube (internally) and top tube (externally).
I can only assume the "breather hole" wasn't deburred properly. Shame to lose such an expensive frame to such a trivial operation.
I've broken three (originally Airborne, now Van Nicholas) titanium road frames, all replaced under warranty. All have gone in the same spot - the seat tube down by the bottom bracket weld so no seatpost issues there.
I'm currently on my fourth frame (waiting for it to go) but wouldn't buy a titanium frame of any persuasion or make in future. They are not bullet-proof and because of the difficulty in building them they are necessarily over-priced.
ton - Member
i reckon that the only 'bike for life' would be a kona clump tubed hardtail. the hoss or shred type of frame is pretty indestructable, i have never seen tubing as thick!
He's right you know, I think mine was made by Brunel.
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I dunno, my Ellsworth's aluminium and it's proving to be a bike for life- no bugger'll buy it off me.
I read a lot about people cracking their frames on here , whatever the material, and many complaints about bike companies not honouring their alleged warranties . Are there many people out there who have had a good result with these manufacturers or are the warranties on mtb's not worth the paper they are written on ?
I'm still absolutely astounded that people are still prepared to buy a frame which is made from a material completely unsuitable for hard off road use. The number of ti frames that crack is huge and anyone trying to persuade you otherwise normally owns one and is trying to defend their own buying decision.
I've just bought a cheap(ish) cove hummer frame from merlin so fingers crossed i'll not be posting in this thread a few months down the line. My alu marin indian fire trail frame from 1994 is still going strong as my singlespeed road bike and i estimate it's had well over 60,000 miles use so far in it's 18yr life, hope it sees out another 18 years.
Had a Kona King Kahuna for 10 years and rode it all the time from local jaunts, to Spanish holidays, never broke. Sold it as wanted something different. Have a Pipedream Modro SS and had that currently for 8 years. Ridden probably 8 months of the year and is still a lovely uncracked frame. Hoping to see me out, that frame. Watch this space !!
I'm still absolutely astounded that people are still prepared to buy a frame which is made from a material completely unsuitable for hard off road use. The number of ti frames that crack is huge and anyone trying to persuade you otherwise normally owns one and is trying to defend their own buying decision.
Hardly unsuitable. Steel bends/rusts. Aluminium fatigues. Carbon snaps. Don't see manufacturers stopping production of those. I absolutely love riding ti bikes, and I, nor pals with ti bikes have ever had a problem. IMO ti has a completely different handling characteristics from other materials, it seemed to descend as good as any slack steel hardtail, and climb as well as a carbon ht and in more comfort. Had a Litespeed frame as a loan for a couple of weeks which was an amazing ride, then bought a 2010 Lynskey version, which just felt too small so sold to a chap off here a few months ago. Now back to steel/alu bikes, but wouldn't ever rule out another ti frame in the future.
Though I only have a Ti road bike, which is eight years old now and immaculate. I think folk got the wrong idea of Ti and the bike for life thing.
I chose Ti because I wanted a bike that wouldn't rust, a bike I could prop up against a brick wall with no concerns, just something that would require very little attention.
But from day one I've always checked for breaks as I would any frame.
It's not that light anyway. I did fancy steel, but a few years of high winter miles, taking mudguards on and off, slinging onto bike racks it would probably look a bugger by now.
And carbon is my race day material.
FTR the only broken Ti's I've seen have all been Lynskeys
Just noticed this thread 😳
Anyway, thanks for posting the pic of my cracked Moots headtube.
Incorrect assembly by monkeys doesn't count
POSTED 7 MONTHS AGO #
No monkeys were involved in the assembly of my Moots.
Honest 😉