I think what I'm getting at is this. With the Labour party being the main party in the UK were grass roots supporters can really (if so motivated) make a difference to the party's direction and policy, that so many people who would consider themselves socialists have sold their principles down the river, voting for a party that is obviously as big a friend of big business and foe to the working man as the party that was in power before, just to get them out of power. In the 12 years this government has been in power it has done very little to quash laws inacted under the Tories that lessen the ability of the working man to take on employers, such as those in Leeds CC, with the assistance of workers in other industries via wide ranging strike action. Yet come the next general election, once again, socialists will file into the voting booth and vote for a party that so obviously views them with contempt.

Yet come the next general election, once again, socialists will file into the voting booth and vote for a party that so obviously views them with contempt.

See, again I would disagree. Nobody with genuine socialist principles would vote for Nulabour. Why would they?
Plenty of people without the courage to vote for something better will. I agree wholeheartedly with your assertion that NuLabour couldn't care less about the historical Labour constituency, and until the sheep
take a cold shower and realise that they have several options on the ballot paper we'll probably have a fake Labour/Conservative dichotomy and two shades of shitty governance for perpetuity.

Still, you cannot describe the last 12 years as Socialism, because that is incorrect.

Guys, lovely to read all the Socialist Worker Bollox. If you have time to post this shite, do you think one of you could pop round and empty my bins please?

It is a mess what is being done to the bin men. Should have been fixed over a decade using natural wastage and staff turnover to equalise the salaries. Instead we hit a brick wall where it "needs" to be done sooner.

For what its worth, its well known that being a bin man (certainly compared with equivalent manual jobs) is a cushy number. The salary, pension and hours worked are better than any equivalent private sector job.

Do I agree with cutting their pay? No. Freezing it maybe? Or even restructuring it so that they don't lose out and get the balance in bonuses.

The situtation is a mess. But left wing shyte nearly killed our car industry, knackered our mining industry and is about to do the same to postal and bin men.

john_drummer – Member
right. I'm off to BC. Any IT jobs in Vancouver?

I was in Vancouver in summer. The ambulance drivers were on strike. When I was there in 2006 the refuse collectors and other local government employees were on strike. Lots of uncollected refuse. The grass ain't always greener.

I've been told by a very reliable source that some bin men get paid £26,000 in Birmingham.

And? Which bimen are striking Hora?

I was just trying to add something 🙁

But left wing shyte nearly killed our car industry, knackered our mining industry and is about to do the same to postal and bin men.

You could make a very convincing argument that the right wing killed those industries:

Car industry: had to be nationalised after it had gone bust.
Coal industry: closed down by Thatcher for ideological reasons.

Clearly, it's more nuanced than that, but to claim it's all the fault of the left is tendentious at best.

I was in Vancouver in summer too. Yes the grass might not be greener, but it's a hell of a lot less crowded. TBH I'd prefer Canmore but I don't think there are too many programmer jobs there…

CHB ….. do you see the irony ?

The irony of saying : "It is a mess what is being done to the bin men……..Do I agree with cutting their pay? No."

Whilst making it absolutely crystal-clear that you don't support them.

And then, accusing other people of posting "shite".

Do you see the irony in that ?

Hora – they get £26k a year …. and ?????

they provide a vital service that is one of the essential cogs in the machine we call society – lose the cog the machine faults and eventualy fails. Why is not worthy of £26k ? their boss earns £200k plus and all the trimmings that go with it – an obscene amount that is far above what any one individual needs to survive.

CHB – Do I agree with cutting their pay? No. Freezing it maybe? Or even restructuring it so that they don't lose out and get the balance in bonuses.
this is the race to the bottom just not quite as fast as pay cuts – totally unacceptable

what we need to see is a more balanced society where the gap between the low and high paid is drastically reduced (yes i do hold strong left wing views evenb to the point of believing that everyone should be paid the same despite their job – but I also live in the real world and see the problems this would cause.)
increasing or in the case of the Leeds refuse workers , maintaining a decent standard salary , for the lower paid and capping the extortionate amounts that execs and the like are paid will deliver a far more bal;anced society and you can still hold on to your capitalist ethos.

let me ask you all to consider this
is it fair that a massive multi national company – say HSBC for example – is allowed to make billions , not millions , but billions of pounds/dollars profit each year yet still employ staff on poverty wages ? there are workers at corporations such as these that have not had pay rises for 10 or more years.
workers generating billions of pounds worth of profit for the shareholders etc. yet their salaries are so low that they have to claim income support and other benefits – benefits that come form your taxes and N.I.
unfortunately we live in a world run by greedy fat men who see profit before people

stAn retreats behind the barricades awaiting a sh#t load of abuse from middle england.

an important point to remember in all this is that the refuse workers in Leeds are not striking to get anything more they are seeking to retain what they already have. They are prepared to get back round the table and negotiate but not with the conditions imposed on them by the council

UP THE WORKERS !

For what its worth, its well known that being a bin man (certainly compared with equivalent manual jobs) is a cushy number. The salary, pension and hours worked are better than any equivalent private sector job

I await your detailed scientific research to back this claim up.

But left wing shyte nearly killed our car industry, knackered our mining industry and is about to do the same to postal and bin men

Oh hold on you have a Phd in political science then 🙄
Might be a job for you at the sun now they have flipped sides you seem to have all the insight they need.

£26k a year to empty bins! Insane. Sack them all and employ people that want a job so the council tax paying people of leeds get their bins emptied.

Blame thatcher……..the **** witch.
free house at chez ton when she dies……………… 😉

Thatcher is a legend. "Soft touch" Tony is the person I blame.

Oh that provocation had a bigger effect than I expected. 😈

Actually, its all academic now, my bins were emptied this morning.
At least this will have increased recycling rates accross leeds. My green bins have never been used so much.

And they're back in negotiations now too, apparently

binmen worth £26K?
On what f***ing planet?
Essential service-yes but completely without skill and so cannot merit that salary.

binmen worth £26K?

Personally – I don't believe it, not for a 40 hr week anyway
It's just another "I once heard a reliable source say that blah, blah, blah"

Oh that provocation had a bigger effect than I expected. 😈

So you were being ironic on purpose then !!

Accusing others of talking shite whilst you yourself, talked complete shite, was just you having a 'bit of a laugh' !!

Ho ho ho …………. you really had me fooled there for a while

surely there's a conspiracy theory in here somewhere

tory council, northern england, looming election

Just read this:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_yorkshire/8278512.stm

Now the 20% inefficiency could be for a good reason, as to be fair the bin men of leeds do pick up stuff next to the bins and don't fine you if your lid is open 10mm.

BUT….

30 days sick per year on average!!!
That is ridiculous by any standards. Surely there is no private sector company that would tolerate that (or even be in business?).

Ernie, wasn't being ironic on purpose.
What started as a thread about binmen turned into a mini episode of communist worker, so I thought since rational discussion was lacking I would engage in a bit of extremist baiting.

Leeds City Council has attacked its bin service as "inefficient", as a strike by refuse workers enters its fourth week.

The authority said overall collection rates were 20% less efficient compared with the average council.

How bizarre that a council should wish to publicly attack it's own bin service. Since everyone apparently agrees that to be a bin man, you need to have no special skills or talents, we can presumably assume that the only difference between the 'efficiency' of refuse collection in Leeds, and the 'efficiency' of refuse collection in other councils, is down to management.

Lets hope that Leeds voters take heed of this amazing admission by the council, and that next election this shower of self-confessed incompetents, are thrown out.

That is ridiculous by any standards.

Is that a serious comment CHB ?…… or another one of your amusing "provocations" as you call them……. you little teaser you 😉

read all this, and it is far too politicaland deep for me.

one thing for sure is that the leeds bin men are the laziest set of barsteward i have ever seen working.
i would sack the lot of them and get a whole new bunch.

ton….ls26 resident.

Deadly serious, no trolling at all.
OK every company has people on long term sick. These bump up the average of any company.
But I know of no private company that would accept 30 days AVERAGE accross the workforce. Most companies acheive way under 10 days.

Now before you say …ah but this is a manual job. Well if people are loosing days from work due to injuries then thats a RIDDOR and is a very serious matter.

Far more likely that 30 days has been tolerated and the staff take the pi$$.

oh bugger….I know your reply already!

Tolerated….aha thats the management to blame!

Yes it is. Sack them too (overpaid council idiots on ridiculous pensions) and get some private proper company in.

[admits to mild trolling in that last sentance].

In all seriousnes, I really would like to understand the detail of this issue.
Does anyone have links to the salary details, current and proposed, and any details on the proposed bonus scheme offered?

I would like my arguments to be based on accurate information.

Yeah,

privatise the service like my local in Calderdale – (sarcasm mode on) it's improved vastly since that happened (sarcasm mode off).

From the Local Govt Careers website:-

Entry Requirements

No academic qualifications are usually required for loaders and drivers. Loaders must usually be over 18 and drivers over 21. Drivers require the appropriate HGV driving licence. Supervisors often work their way up through the ranks, but it may be possible to start as a supervisor with four GCSEs/S grades (A-C/1-3) or equivalent.

Training is usually on-the-job and includes safety awareness, manual handling, health and safety, protective equipment, handling needles and customer service for loaders and drivers. Supervisors may work towards an HNC or NVQ/SVQ level 3 in waste management.

Estimated salary range

Salaries for full-time refuse loaders are likely to be between £11,000 and £17,000; for refuse drivers £15,000 to £20,000 and for supervisors £17,000 to £25,000.

Benefits would probably be nearly as much as those on the low end of the scale, perhaps we should be applauding them for turning up at all.

dangerous, thats a huge range 11 to 17 K …I want details to understand the pay scales of these folk. That way I can make my own twisted assessment of whats fair.

Further googling shows London bin men to be on the higher rates but it includes 'contractual overtime payments' – no mention of how many hours overtime that is for though.

That way I can make my own twisted assessment of whats fair.

Well the Chief Executive of Leeds Council Paul Rogerson (the guy who makes decisions about cutting other people's wages) is on £191,467 a year – do you think that's fair ?

BTW, how do you think people who have been loaned money from banks, building societies etc, on the basis of their currant salaries, should deal with their wages being slashed ?

the tory leader of leeds council is on app.£200,000 a year – why don't we cost cut on his salary and benefits , no-one needs that amount of salary.

That didn't sound right, so I checked.

Turns out the council leader, even according to the GMB, earns £45,000 including allowances.

The chief executive, however, is on £190,000 – he is a council employee, not a political member of the council.

http://gmb.live.rss-hosting.co.uk/Templates/Internal.asp?NodeID=98970

Politicians (LibDems at least) on the council think that these very high salaries for senior management in the council should be tackled:

http://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/news/Leader-wants-council-top-staff.5653698.jp

Now, I wonder which party was running Leeds council when the chief exec was appointed?

Mind you, more useful jobs for society such as the marketing account executive for a plastic childrens toy company pays £40K plus car.

Who needs bins emptying when there's Chinese made plastic toys to be sold.

Yeah, but what I want to know is why LEEDS is almost alone in provoking its bin men to strike? Is it head stuck up ar$e bureaucrats that are provoking reasonable folk to strike? Or is it malingering, lazy binmen that expect pension, 30days sick and more pay than other folk in similar jobs?
[ok thats dramatised, and you have to ignore the point that its not their fault if they were allowed to get away with taking the piss…but hang on thats the excuse the MP's used!]

I really don't know who to support in this because I don't have the true, raw facts.

I know from when my brother went for a job (worked in an abertoir) that binmen were a cushy number in Leeds.

Lets please keep this thread non-inflamatory, until at least we can post some facts.

30 days sick per year on average!!!

"average" is a very average statistic. I was listening to BBC Radio Leeds this morning on my drive to work, and according to the union bloke there are at least 2 managers in the LCC refuse department that have been off sick with stress for over 6 months.
That's going to bump up the "average" somewhat, don't you think?

You should listen to your local radio station, it's very informative.

£200k for a council bureaucrat is ridiculous. Private companies can pay what the hell they like (or shareholders will accept).

BUT …councils, BBC, Yorkshire Forward, NHS pay their top execs way too much and I have no problems with cutting this and getting more performance related pay for the grafters.

Dangerous…£40k for plastics. Well someone has to do the job. If the market collapses then he/she won't be employed.

CHB – as others pointed out already, councils that contracted out refuse collection (or dinner ladies) to private companies have avoided the issue of needing to equalise the pay of dinner ladies and bin men.