Its naive to not vote tactically under our current system

Fixed 🙂

What percentage of posters in this thread are going to vote Green then? 40%? 50%? Out of 40-odd people polled, 20-ish said they’d vote Green. That’s a pretty good majority if you take the lesser parties (tories, labour, lib dems) into account 😀

what if your belief and value is anyone but the Tories?

Its naive to not vote tactically under our current system

You must hold a lot of contradictory beliefs if that’s really true.

The only way to bring about long-term change is to vote for who you believe in. Just because your preference doesn’t get elected doesn’t mean your vote is wasted.

The only way to bring about long-term change is to vote for who you believe in. Just because your preference doesn’t get elected doesn’t mean your vote is wasted.

So not having any representation from your vote is a success then and not a waste?
I get your argument and it is both noble and naive. For example in some areas a tory voting UKIP may result in a Labour MP. The result of your choice may be the choice you would least like to happen. I dont think recognising this fact and voting accordingly makes me hold contradictory views. You will need to explain why you think this rather than just state it and ignore this argument.
Its a perfectly plausible scenario and its worth considering when voting.

So not having any representation from your vote is a success then and not a waste?

I’d rather lack representation than endorse a cause I disagree with. To my mind your argument only holds if you view there to be no power in votes for anyone other than the winner – in which case the majority of people in the country waste their votes. I’d disagree with that, whilst there’s no electoral power, they help define the political landscape in which the major parties operate.

So not having any representation from your vote is a success then and not a waste?
I get your argument and it is both noble and naive. For example in some areas a tory voting UKIP may result in a Labour MP. The result of your choice may be the choice you would least like to happen. I dont think recognising this fact and voting accordingly makes me hold contradictory views. You will need to explain why you think this rather than just state it and ignore this argument.
Its a perfectly plausible scenario and its worth considering when voting.

It’s people voting Green that has encouraged them to field more people for election. So now we have Green councillors here in Bristol and an MP in Brighton because people like me spent years voting for them even though there was at that time no hope of them being elected. You’ll have to explain what’s naive about that.

If you honestly believe that a tactical vote in your constituency is going to make any difference to the outcome, then you place rather too much faith in the power of your vote. I also find it rather ironic that we complain about politicians’ cynicism…

Undecided voter here. I did the voteforpolicies survey and it gave me an exact 3 way split between Labour, Greens and Lib Dem…. which wasn’t entirely useful as far as choosing a candidate is concerned, but I guess useful in showing the significant overlap that now exists in a lot of policies on the part of the parties concerned… that must, in part, be to do with the Green’s getting more votes and thus influencing policies in the political mainstream.

Vote. Informed.

If you honestly believe that a tactical vote in your constituency is going to make any difference to the outcome, then you place rather too much faith in the power of your vote

My argument is that voting for a potential winner will have more difference than voting for a guaranteed loser

I have less faith than you do in my vote. I dont think it has or will change the political landscape like you think yours has. [EDIT:You have a point about what your voting behaviour has achieved and that reads as overly harsh ]

I am not sure why you think this is cynical. Could you explain your barbs rather than just deliver them?

If it was PR I would vote Green

My argument is that voting for a potential winner will have more difference than voting for a guaranteed loser

And I think you’re wrong. The only way to bring about the change you want is to vote for it – and I don’t think you’re arguing that the change you want is “anyone but tory”?

I am not sure why you think this is cynical. Could you explain your barbs rather than just deliver them?

You gave the example of voting UKIP to keep the tories out. “enemy of my enemy is my friend” is exceptionally cynical IMO.

My enemy’s enemy may still be your enemy. If not now, then probably in the future. Look what happened to the US-backed Mujahadeen in 80’s Afghanistan.

My argument is that voting for a potential winner will have more difference than voting for a guaranteed loser

short term, probably. Wouldn’t it be better long term if people voted for who they wanted?

Undecided. For those that say there is no “none of the above” option, I would suggest spoiling the ballot paper.

Tempted to vote Green as that would fit with my views the closest (at odds with employment though, and probably be worse off under it). SNP is tempting as preferred centre-left, this from a pretty committed LD voter in the past. However they may have had to go through the pain that Greens would do if in a position of influence.

Like I said, don’t know!!

It is frustrating to hear people say they are going to vote tactically due to our voting system and votes being perceived as wasted. I understand though their points.
If everyone thought like that though then no change would ever happen!

Wouldn’t it be better long term if people voted for who they wanted?

Nah. Despite being a socialist, I look at that Keir Hardie chap and think I should vote liberal so I can keep the tories out.

you’re arguing that the change you want is “anyone but tory”?

That’s my reasoning tbh. Although I’d include UKIP in that too. It sounds hatefully tribal, but the tories (and UKIP) represent a level of evil that goes so far beyond anything else that voting for a tory-lite labour party run by idiots becomes almost acceptable. I really don’t want to vote for labour, but the difference between them and the tories will make a huge difference to lots of people’s lives. It’s all very well for me in my nice middle class professional job to dream about the greens winning, but that doesn’t help the disabled and others being affected by the bedroom tax, or the tens/hundreds of thousands on zero hours contracts.

Green voter here.

They have no hope of getting in, but more and more will vote in time which will encourage more to stand, and the party will grow in influence, and the mainstream parties will see their supporters voicing more and more green issues, The Green issues become more mainstream every time some-one puts an X in the box. I’ll not benefit (directly) probably but my kids will start to, and theirs after that.

That’s my reasoning tbh. Although I’d include UKIP in that too. It sounds hatefully tribal, but the tories (and UKIP) represent a level of evil that goes so far beyond anything else that voting for a tory-lite labour party run by idiots becomes almost acceptable. I really don’t want to vote for labour, but the difference between them and the tories will make a huge difference to lots of people’s lives. It’s all very well for me in my nice middle class professional job to dream about the greens winning, but that doesn’t help the disabled and others being affected by the bedroom tax, or the tens/hundreds of thousands on zero hours contracts.

I’ve looked at labour’s policies and concluded that they’re less evil than the tories, but notions of them making life much better for the working poor are well wide of the mark IMO. So the tribal mentality confuses me, and could you really bring yourself to endorse a UKIP candidate?

I don’t think you’re arguing that the change you want is “anyone but tory”?

I am not its just the least bad outcome available

Wouldn’t it be better long term if people voted for who they wanted?

Not if it meant the Tories kept winning – what Dazh said basically on tha issue.
YMMV

You gave the example of voting UKIP to keep the tories out. “enemy of my enemy is my friend” is exceptionally cynical IMO.

I gave an example of UKIP voter voting for them and getting Labour and this being their least favoured option – ie the opposite of my thinking and an example of how voting for who you want can give you your least desired outcome. Ie it may be better to vote tactically to avoid “losing”. I have no idea why you think I was suggesting vote UKIP. My , very reluctant, slogan would be vote for the nasty party not the racists in that 2 way choice.

If everyone thought like that though then no change would ever happen!

I am not sure what massive change you think is achieved by one green MP tbh. I do tend to agree and my solution is to change the way we vote [ PR]to remove tactical voting ie make every vote count.

my solution is to change the way we vote [ PR]to remove tactical voting ie make every vote count.

Vote for a party that supports PR then.

Will they win 🙂

if we did not vote for the smaller parties, then there would be no need to change in the first place.

I am not sure what massive change you think is achieved by one green MP tbh

I think that is where you argument becomes flawed. It’s not about the number of mps this time around. More green votes will encourage more people to vote green (or for other current minority parties). If they get voted as the 3rd biggest party in a few places then maybe next time they’ll be the 2nd biggest or even in the hunt for the win for a few seats. Then it grows from there. One extra vote here will make more difference than a voting for a party you don’t agree with just to keep the Tories out IMO

I agree on the vote for who you want to represent you, BUT, I live in a constituancy that is roughly divided Tory / LibDem. They roughly get 40% of the vote each, very small margins. The others, last time around was Labour, Greens, UKIP, and BNP. Labour was roughly 9% of the votes cast.

So voting for anything other than Tory or LibDem gets you Tory or LibDem. The least worst option.

I really don’t know what will happen come the GE. I expect UKIP will take a much larger slice of the vote, we have a lot of migrant workers in the area working on the farms, and a lot of bigoted rich land owners who revel in NIMBYism.

I’ll vote Green as they represent most of my views, not all, but then I don’t think you would agree 100% with any party. I’ll certainly not vote LibDem as they sold their soul for a slice of power and gave us exactly the opposite of their pre-election “promises”.

Locally we’ll get the same Tory back in Westminster, who if you put in a line up with Tim Nice But Dim would be mistaken for the comedy character.

I’ll vote with my convictions and hope the mess that will be the results will find a coalition more left leaning. Wishful thinking maybe.

I live in a constituency which is marginal between the Lib Dems and the Tories. Some people suggest that if you ‘vote green, get blue’. However with votes split on all sides, this might be the best opportunity we get to make a protest vote that could count for something.

But I really don’t want the Tories to get in.

It’s not about the number of mps this time around.

Interesting way of looking at it [ not meant to sound sarcastic or be a dig].

I agree your way is the more noble and the more likely to bring about genuine change than mine but this debate just highlights why we need PR

I wish I could vote for who I like but I cannot as anything other than votes for a Tory or labour will not win where I live. I wont vote green lest I get blue

Its a shame

JY- if everybody thought that then nothing would ever change. There may be more people in your constituency who think along the same lines as you than you think!

I am not sure what massive change you think is achieved by one green MP tbh.

Yep, nothing ever changed because of that Keir Hardie fella. In short – everyone starts small, and whilst most never become big, at least there’s a possibility. The grubby compromises you suggest ensure that can never happen.

The voting system this country is shit! We had a chance to change it and the country bottled it. Yes it wasn’t the best solution but it was a start.

I will probably be spoiling my ballot paper this time round as I am so disillusioned with it all. I don’t want torries in but for god sake, could you imagine MilliBalls running the country, and then bring the racists into the equation as well!! 🙄

How has this happened to the country. Ukip get any power I’m leaving the UK……..

Heard some interesting stats the other day…

No MP has been voted for by more than 50% of the registered voters in that constituency. And turn-out in most places is <50%

So if all the people who didn’t vote instead chose to vote for a single protest candidate, we’d see real change.

And this time round it looks like protest votes are going to say more than ever.

If only Russell Brand had said this, rather than ‘don’t vote’ 🙁

I will probably be spoiling my ballot paper this time round

Why bother making the trip?

Ah, you’re one of them.

Aracer. And what would that be?

EDIT: Actually there was no Green candidate last time round. Tory, LibDem. Labour, UKIP, BNP.

Why bother making the trip?

Cos you don’t get counted if your sat on the sofa!

@bigblackshed http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/so-is-a-vote-for-the-greens-a-wasted-vote/page/3#post-6811008

Aracer.

This was my constituency last time round. It was a two horse race.

Tories won with 46% of the vote, turnout was 67.7%. Which incidentally was 31% of the total eligible voters, 32% of voters didn’t vote.

Voting should be manditory, IMO, even if you vote for “None of the Above”

Greens got my vote