Havent read all of the thread so apologies if i repeat something already said.

My take on proffessional photographers are that they are there to make money. Yay or Nay?

The highest percentage of buyers of photographs will be from the weekend warrior/1st time participants who will see a novelty in being able to buy an action shot of themselves in an 'event' Yay or Nay?

Most racers, and those capable of riding the techy trails will have the 'been there, done that' feeling and find the cost a bit much to dish out every event. Yay or Nay?

There may be technical areas they could use but from what i have seen of these events the more technical bits tend to either have massive backlogs of walking/riding. People running down them or just plain avoided. Not much picture oppertunities. Remember the photographer is working on percentages so not good. Yay or Nay?

Another 'amateur' pic I like a lot:

Much better than the innumerable 'grumpy looking rider looking static in the trees' shots from mayhem that year …

My take on proffessional photographers are that they are there to make money. Yay or Nay?

Yep

The highest percentage of buyers of photographs will be from the weekend warrior/1st time participants who will see a novelty in being able to buy an action shot of themselves in an 'event' Yay or Nay?

I don't think so, no. I think everyone likes a good pic of themselves.
"Action shot"? Well, they aren't. That's the point. There's little or no action in any of them. Flat ground. Boring background. No more than holiday snaps that their mates could take. People aren't mugs!

Most racers, and those capable of riding the techy trails will have the 'been there, done that' feeling and find the cost a bit much to dish out every event. Yay or Nay?

£1k – £4k+ for a bike? £5 for a good pic of you riding it? Again, I think everyone likes a good pic of themsevles.

There may be technical areas they could use but from what i have seen of these events the more technical bits tend to either have massive backlogs of walking/riding. People running down them or just plain avoided. Not much picture oppertunities. Remember the photographer is working on percentages so not good. Yay or Nay

Totally, utterly missed the mark entirely there chap. Sorry. The BBF course in particular was littered with superb photo opportunites, and after the first half of the first lap, the field spaced out and nearly everyone rode nearly everything every time. Mrs PP is not a technical rider at all, but even she only walked the bridge and rode all the rocky bits. 🙂

I love that one of the T-Mobile guy in the water! But I'm not convinced that if it was me in that picture I'd necessarily have paid £5 for it. 😀

I jolly well would if I'd have got it that wrong and made a complete arse of myself 🙂

In fact, I very nearly did exactly that on the first lap, missed the faceplant/bellyflop more by luck than judgement …

Did he fall, or was he pushed for wearing the T mobile kit?

As a professional photographer there are some givens, but one being that you need to be producing images that sell.
Or you have no business.

One way to have images that sell is to produce more interesting images than the competition.

A few images here are no more than snaps, that much is obvious & I'm sure the photograpgers who took would agree, it’s something we can pretty much all do, regardless of training and experience. That doesn’t de-value them in the eyes of the rider or for that matter the photographer. KingTut’s first picture was just one such example, it's his favourite picture but technically it's no more than a snap but as a professional, it's not an image I'd personally have been looking to take.

As riders, you will know from competing in these events that off-board flash units are pretty much a given now-a-days, you only need look at the magazines to better appreciate what I’m talking about, but if you are in any doubt, look at the bike and rider’s shadows and where they fall.

When you’re out on the trails and hill sides for hours at a time taking pictures, if your only master is selling images to the riders then you have a simplified brief; whereas if it’s the race organisers, magazine or the charity (?) or any other 3rd party, they you need a good spread if images from the event, not just a many images taken of a few corners / bomb holes / corners.

These were used in one of this month's magazines:

The best sellers are where there's a little "action".

Apart from the night-time shot, all others were at Clic24 2010. I have many others from events, but I think it serves to illustrate what I'm talking about (I hope!). I had three masters at the event, you the riders, the magazine and the race organisers who want images they can use for PR & marketing. You try and satisfy all 3 over the course of 24hrs as best you can.

I've had 2261 visitors and 25 orders from the Clic event, ergo, you're never going to make enough to retire on, so never give up that day job!

The best sellers are where there's a little "action".

Thank you, kind sir. I was hoping as much. I really was. 😀

To be fair, mtb is not a sport where the 'action' is obvious when shot – pulling a funny face, looking a bit pooped and lolling out your tongue is about it really 😉
Add into the equation that most of the events in the UK are muddy field rides it doesn't give much scope for creativity…

One thing that's been mentioned here is that financially, the best events are those that attract a new crowd, it's rare to be selling images to the same racers weekend in, weekend out, all season long.

Personally, I try and sustain the professional photographers by buying their images, but that's my own personal take.

Tim, you take a mean photo 8)

Add into the equation that most of the events in the UK are muddy field rides it doesn't give much scope for creativity…

The start/finish and arena is a muddy field, certainly. Which is why you need to get off your ass and find a location you can do something with.

Oddly, all the pics I've seen from BBF are within a reasonably easy walk of the carpark…… 😕

If I've learned nothing from doing a few MBUK shoots it's that something that looks interesting to ride doesn't necessarily make a good photo, and vice versa.

Looking down your photos Tim, the only two that are actually of riders look very much like every other photographer's photos of people racing. There's just not much you can do to make it look interesting!

Oh funny OP 🙂

I've got a few race photos and I spent the day being a photo gimp for a mag shoot. So e of these shots are hanging in my downstairs loo. They show a middle aged fella on a medium/high end bike either looking moderatly sweaty or otherwise vaguely interested in remaining upright on a bike. IMO the only really decent photos of mountain bikers are so staged or planned that the chances of recreating that on a race course or more or less NIL. You may as well just capture the riders as they come past you…

Oh that telecom guy in the water splash? MM in either 06 or 07 it was as they say a "target rich environment"..

They show a middle aged fella on a medium/high end bike either looking moderatly sweaty or otherwise vaguely interested in remaining upright on a bike.

What!! you mean you didn't even pull the 'mtb rider face' 😉

The ones I like are oft' not the ones that sell!

I used the Clic24 to illustrate a point, in the woods you can get a little more creative and produce some more dramatic images – hopefully, but the Mendips course is very spread out and rather open in nature.

This was taken at the BORS, which has attracted a reasonably high number of sales, illustrating the earlier point that it's the newer rider who purchases the images.

In this series of images taken on this corner, I've attempted to creatate a sense of depth and perspective, partly by positioning myself on a hill top on a bend but with the use of out of focus riders and a 200mm lens. YOu wait for 10 minutes and 5 riders all appear at the same time! You guys, spread out so I can better take each of you in turn (it's not a circuit but 4 Merida style distances up to 121km).

The ones I like are oft' not the ones that sell!

Correct! I think that's what's being said. You can take nice photos of the race, or you can take photos that will sell, they're rarely the same thing.

The ones I like are oft' not the ones that sell!

Is that Rowberrow at night? Smashing pic.

If only I could learn to take good pictures that sell! 😉

Night time image above was at Clic24 – see this month's MBUK for the full 5 page spread.

YOu wait for 10 minutes and 5 riders all appear at the same time! You guys, spread out so I can better take each of you in turn

The guys who photograph the road sportive events have a slightly irritating habit of snapping two people riding together separately. Eventually, one chap got this one, which (while totally unspectacular) has me and my mates, having a ride together. I bought that one… 🙂

Genuine LOL at the t mobile guy 🙂

I would also add that the road photographers IMHO have a harder job.
At least I can lay out all manner of lights to make both the rider and the surrounding trail look interesting, add some mud and you have, to my mind, a slightly easier job of photographing riders.

Oh, and meant to add, there were eventually so many photographers round that water splash the flash going off was like being in the middle of a fireworks display. I was still blinking out the stars in my eyes miles later. I'm sure it was off putting, and difficult for some riders.

But hey, there were probably some good action shots, so that's OK

Off topic slightly, at Swinley the other day there was a guy taking pics at the jumps. Now I'm not very good, but some of the kids are above average (or at least could pull simple tricks on demand).

Now avoiding any legal issues of the fact he was taking photos of kids (a bit silly IMO as long as the Daily Mail and the Sun are still in business).

Whats to stop him taking a pic of me on my 456 getting some rad/sick/tothemax/awesum air. Selling it to On-One to use in an Ad campaign, for millions of £ and retireing?

Ditto race photographers? Who owns the rights to the image, surely the riders must get some say in how their image is used.

EDIT: I appreciate the inaccuracy of my post in stateing that on-one would actualy advertise anything rather than rellying on niche mongers to keep them in business.

Nah – no rights if the photo is taken on public land.

EDIT: Oh wait – actually, if it's for commercial useage, he'd have to get a model release.

Nah – no rights if the photo is taken on public land.

as long as it's not for commercial use… so if said photographer wanted to sell it to on-one for lot's of money for their advertising etc, they'd need to have your permission to do so, AFAIK…

Whats to stop him taking a pic of me on my 456 getting some rad/sick/tothemax/awesum air. Selling it to On-One to use in an Ad campaign, for millions of £ and retireing?

Ditto race photographers? Who owns the rights to the image, surely the riders must get some say in how their image is used.

As I understand it, the subject of the pic has absolutely no rights over it at all, if taken in a public place. You can't stop someone taking a pic, and you have no control over what they do with it. Once you take a pic, it's yours.

Personally, I agree these guys:
http://photographernotaterrorist.org/

EDIT
I'm a bit wrong it seems! I didn't know about the commercial use thing because I only looked into it from the POV of taking pics and selling them to the people I'd photographed. Sorry. 🙂

thats what I thought, but surely there comes a point where its a photograph of someone rather than a photograph of public land that you just happened to be in?

I've seen plenty of BBC/ITV signs back home saying words to the effect of "filming in progress from *****am to *****pm on **/**/**** to **/**/****. By entering this area you giving your cosncent to have your image used by ITV/BBC and carefully selected* thrid parties"

*anyone who'll pay for the footage

Pap photographers can just rock up to someone's front door, ring the bell, and when they answer, unload a flashgun into their just-out-of-bed face and go publish it. As long as the front door in question is on public land (i.e., a normal road).

It was pouring with rain, and he was halfway down a slippy muddy gully, and he gets a pic of that quality. Well done sir, that's what I'm talking about.

Thanks! 😀

Personally, I try and sustain the professional photographers by buying their images, but that's my own personal take

ah yes, an endangered species like post offices 🙁

What you'll find, increasingly, is that the main events, let's use Mayhem as an exaple, attracts many photographers.

YOu'll have one sanctioned by the event organisers (will they even be a professional photographer this year?)and one probably working for Original Source, but the rest, of whom there will be many, will have no profit in mind; it's just for the pleasure of it that they're there.

One week after Mayhem, Flickr will be awash with images, some good, some awful; most everything will be free. That's why the professionals have all but deserted the main events unless they're being paid to be there or they're going to earn something 1/2 worthwhile from their work, which at Mayhem, they won't.

As I say, taking mtn biking images to sell to the general public is not quite the retirement plan your book keeper had in mind! And we haven't even touched on prices and goods that you can offer to riders.

Shot for a 5 page magazine article about the Kielder 100 in September.

That's why the professionals have all but deserted the main events unless they're being paid to be there or they're going to earn something 1/2 worthwhile

and should we care ?

As I understand it, the subject of the pic has absolutely no rights over it at all, if taken in a public place. You can't stop someone taking a pic, and you have no control over what they do with it. Once you take a pic, it's yours.

More or less right: that is only completely true for editorial photography. Once you get into photography which is to be used for advertising, you really should get a model release when the subject of the photo is clearly identifiable. If someone takes your pic and uses it to sell, say, Marmite, when you have a known hatred of marmite, so your mates all start taking the mick and asking why you're advertising a product you hate, well that's where a model release gets the 'tog out of the deep stuff, or allows you to seek recompense yadda yadda yadda

user-removed – Member

EDIT: Oh wait – actually, if it's for commercial useage, he'd have to get a model release.

Is this correct? Pretty sure the usage is irrelevant (or it used to be). Otherwise, how would photo-journalists/paparazzi photogs go about their business.

Oh, NBT answered that…

Oliver Coats is the best bike photographer out there bar none.