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KT, that was the guy near the start/finsh straight wasn't it? He was using a monopod? Not the guy I mean to be fair, do you rember the chap that was set up by the big log as you come out of the woods for the last time? Not even holding his camera, just sitting next to it? Him.
these two tell a story - before and after I trashed my shoulder:
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pics courtesy off official bbf at photo-it.com (i'm buying these photo's as respecting i'm showing someone else's artistic property!)
Peter - am off to fracture clinic this arvo to see how bad it is and whether me coming to the PDS is on or not. I have fingers -and everything else that doesn't hurt too much- crossed...
I used to cover snowboarding and skiing events for the British Universities Snowsports Club (some of the pics still come up if you google my name in google images!).
You do find yourself just making sure that you definitely have at least one photo of everybody - if that means sitting in one place for an hour or so, then so be it.
I like to think though that most of the pics were at least interesting and I put a lot of thought and effort into (my) location, off camera lighting and technical considerations.
Occasionally, I've thought about getting into the mtb race market - I already take pics for a living and the subject matter is plenty interesting... Sounds like it may already be a saturated market though?
do you rember the chap that was set up by the big log as you come out of the woods for the last time?
Vaguely, but I tend not to look at the photographers - it spoils the action shot if you are looking into the camera. 😉
The day flew by!
Sadly, this is probably the crux of it isn't it? Did you make any money?
If he's bored to the point of near-death AND taking bad pictures AND losing money hand over fist by sitting there then that's tragic. If he's bored, taking bad pictures BUT making enough money for it to be worth his while then fair play I suppose, it's just a job. 🙂
it spoils the action shot if you are looking into the camera.
Like this? Good old Nath eh? 100% focus that man ...
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I'm soooooooooooooooooo tempted to post one of my own and open myself right up to ridicule..... 😉
From looking through my photos tagged on Facebook:
An amateur photographer friend of mine took this, which I always liked, particularly as you can't see it's me!:
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This was one of the official ones from BBF a few years ago, I think it's a pretty good effort!
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Joolze has got loads of good ones of me, just not got any of them saved anywhere!
Sadly, this is probably the crux of it isn't it? Did you make any money?
Yup. 🙂
Another excellent amateur photo (of me, oh yes) taken at the Clic24 2009.
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Credit to Laura Pilon.
PJT - agreed - they were amazing.
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Also had some very good pics from Joolze in the past, like this of Steve at D2D which she said was one of her favourites of the year.
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It was pouring with rain, and he was halfway down a slippy muddy gully, and he gets a pic of that quality.
with respect PP, I fail that shot for obvious tilting. If it had been that steep and slippery too, your face would have shown more concern. Also you can see tilted tree trunks in the background...
Bah. Some of them take it too seriously IME. Kicked a guy out from inside the tape at iXS Cup at the weekend, he had the nerve to complain that the course hadn't been set up with photographers in mind.
We had gone for the traditional putting on a good course for the riders, safety of the riders etc, good jump into the field for the spectators, never thought to cut down a few more trees to give this guy better light !
Later in the day another photographer got inside the tape, rider took an unpredictable line and landed on top of him. Neither hurt too badly but it meant a re-run so we had to keep all the marshals in places and get the guy up the hill again. (had planned for this and had a pick-up truck waiting but still)
I'll be a much bigger Press Pass Nazi next year... this guy's behavior was just dangerous.
with respect PP, I fail that shot for obvious tilting
And I like it because of that! 🙂 Believe me, that was sketchy down there, that's concentration, but I knew I could ride it....
To ba fair, it'd be boring if we all liked the same thing.
I always have a look at the pics you post from the Lakes, because you've got a great canvas to work with there and there's always one or two that show the ride as it was, usually the isolation in the landscape that comes across IMO.
EDIT
I've just had a closer look at it, and I reckon I look slightly worried, and I'm off the back of the saddle, FFS! 😉 😀
And bear in mind that was day 1 or 2 of a 7 day epic....
In my mind there are 3 ways of doing things. Especially tasks you dont really want to be doing.
1. Do nt do it !
Advantages - Maximum time available to do something else you want to.
Disadvantages - Job is not done at all.
2. Do it properly !
Advantages - Job is done to the best of your abilities 100% complete.
Disadvantages - Minimum time available to do something else you like.
3. Maximum Efficiency - Do the 90% of the job that takes 10% of the time. Ignoring the 10% of the job that takes 90% of the time.
Example - Putting clothes away
Throw all the clothes in the wardrobe with out sorting/folding/hanging them. Room is clean, wardrobe/cupboard doors are closed so I dont walk into them during the night when I want a pee.
Advantages - Almost the maximum time to do something else, most of the job is done if badly.
Disadvantages - Clothes are crumpled but who cares.
But my wife has found a third way similar to the above example
4. Minimise Efficiency - Do the bit of the job that takes 90% of the time, leaving the remaining bit that takes 10% of the time to finish the job properly.
Example - Putting clothes away
Neatly fold all the clothes putting them in drawers/cupboard but be careful to leave one item hanging out of drawers/doors, and then do not close them properly
Advantages - Clothes are put away.
Disadvantages - Room still looks a mess, drawers etc are left open so I bang my knee in the middle of the night leading to massive amounts of shouting. Minimum time to do something else you want to.
This example sounds similar the guy gets buys the cameras, gets to the location, braves the weather, sets up the website etc etc all the boring stuff that takes ages then doesnt bother with the exciting finishing bit of taking good pictures a little bit more effort would make it so mych more worthwhile.
To me it sounds like he's expended 90% of the effort but still only got pictures that are 10% as good as someone who expended 100% of the effort.
Did you make any money?/ Yup.
I meant, net of depreciation on the camera equipment, travel and other expenses and opportunity cost of the time spent, if it makes any difference to your answer. 🙂
EDIT: I quite agree, some of the pictures people have posted are clearly a lot better than the bulk of the stuff that gets taken. But it's still presumably the case that these chaps don't think they're wasting their time. Hey ho.
I meant, net of depreciation on the camera equipment, travel and other expenses and opportunity cost of the time spent, if it makes any difference to your answer
So why not say that in the first place rather than trying to wiggle out of it when you're surprised by my answer? 😛
The full story is that no, I didn't make a penny. It all went to Help for Heros. Good enough for ya?
However, if I'd have sold that many pics at Joolzes prices, I'd have made about double what I do for a day here at work.
Bearing in mind my only advertisement was on about 4-5 cycling foums, and personally I don't think that's too shabby for a first attempt. 😀
One in particular had [b]more kit than anyone I've ever seen at a race, all mounted on a tripod, and seemingly taking pics automatically as riders passed.[/b] He sat there looking bored stiff. If you were there, you'd have seen him. [b]You couldn't really miss him![/b]
Tripod? automatic snapping kit? Couldn't miss him?
Was he wearing high vis, with one of these deployed....
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LOL! Might as well have been! 😀
I think I probably got away without being ticketed.
Less of this:
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More of this:
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@kingtut and another dead hero (which Lvisite are you!?)- Im always focused on the task in hand - mostly eating! I was too chicken to take my hands off the bars and give him a two finger salute!
I gave one photographer a contador gunshow (shame it wasnt the ron burgundy version) but I havent seen it yet- any ideas of other galleries about?
Nath
These were with a £150 compact digital, no flash and no real photography skill:
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With a decent camera I could have brought a chair and sat there all day snapping souvenir pics that imo are better than the official shots. Why are they all in portrait? And half of them are so brightly lit by the flash they look like pap shots outside a nightclub.
Joolze does some beautiful stuff, I need to start doing some races where she's working!
I don't think that's too shabby for a first attempt
OK, I surrender. You are indeed the model that other so-called race photographers should seek to emulate. 😛 😀
(mr MC posting)
I try to take arty/atmospheric pics when I'm out riding and I'm impressed with the official photos of me off the photo-it site, the first one is inside knee up and out, brakes on, looking deep into the oncoming corner with race face on, and theres a couple of mid tight-corner decent lean angle/body position shots too. the only race pic I ever bought at a red bull 24hr was a similar big lean "powering" out of a corner race face shot.
Agree the straight fireroad stuff is lazy and pointless (unless youre riding with a broken shoulder I guess!)
GodIhatehills, ADH is Andy L.
Cheers for the mention ADH - the image in question:
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I think it's technically quite a weak shot - I've only got a 450D, a 10-22mm and a mid-level flash gun + diffuser. I think the flash is a bit 'hot', it's a bit contrasty and I always get the forward motion blur despite using second curtain flash syncing. But at the same time, like what PP is saying, it does a much better job of capturing the moment.
However, clearly the guy in question is coming at this from a purely commercial aspect. He's obviously worked out he needs to get every rider, and at least 4 photos of each, he'll know from experience how many photos will sell and it's probably a nice little winner for him.
I on the other hand while happy to lay down in the bushes, an inch from your wheel, wielding a 10mm lens, and generally risking a dam good clattering from the next rider who crashes, will probably only hang around for a couple of hours, only capture a fraction of the riders, shoot in fewer locations and probably throw away more than half the shots I take.
So I think it's unfair to batter the guys who do this...
There was a water crossing at one of the events, steep bank down into a stream, short bank on the far side. One cameraman set himself up there and got pictures of all the people falling in. I bet he didn't sell many though because too many people take themselves too seriously. Much better place to stand than where PP is complaining about.
I always try to smile for the camera when I see someone taking my picture.
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Oh the other issue to consider is cataloguing the photos. You can probably see the number plate in less than half of my more creative efforts...
GaryLake thats the best photo I have seen from the weekend by a long long way.
The Photo-it guy (who was the guy by the log at teh exit of the woods) managed to get 4 photos of everyone in out team so that 12 photos all ranging from bad to average. I think my 6 year old son could have done a better job with the kit he had.
Most of these 'Pro' photographers need to re-think the way they take photos I would have been much happier with one good photo of one of the riders in our team than 12 cr@p ones.
soma_rich: that was actually from '09 BikeFest but thanks! 😀
I was out shooting for Team Syncros friday nght and bagged a couple from the race on Sat but I can't share those as they're potentially being used commercially...
Ahh the mud should have given it away 🙂
I always try to smile for the camera when I see someone taking my picture.
+1
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I grin like a fox on crack.
Gary - my GF is quite into her photography too (just not of bikes!) so I'm well versed in the technicalities of photography, but I still vastly prefer shots like that, compared to innumerable borings, but technically 'better' photos.
I'd rather take a chance on one good shot like yours than any amount of the usual boring dross these guys turn out. OK if it earns them a crust, but I've never ever bought one, and I probably never will.
I've just had a look through the official pics of me from the link on P1 of this thread. There's about 10 of me. They are all nice enough, well composed, and sharply focuzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.......................
Eh? Wha? Ohh sorry. I dropped off for a second there.... 😐
Havent read all of the thread so apologies if i repeat something already said.
My take on proffessional photographers are that they are there to make money. Yay or Nay?
The highest percentage of buyers of photographs will be from the weekend warrior/1st time participants who will see a novelty in being able to buy an action shot of themselves in an 'event' Yay or Nay?
Most racers, and those capable of riding the techy trails will have the 'been there, done that' feeling and find the cost a bit much to dish out every event. Yay or Nay?
There may be technical areas they could use but from what i have seen of these events the more technical bits tend to either have massive backlogs of walking/riding. People running down them or just plain avoided. Not much picture oppertunities. Remember the photographer is working on percentages so not good. Yay or Nay?
Another 'amateur' pic I like a lot:
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Much better than the innumerable 'grumpy looking rider looking static in the trees' shots from mayhem that year ...
My take on proffessional photographers are that they are there to make money. Yay or Nay?
Yep
The highest percentage of buyers of photographs will be from the weekend warrior/1st time participants who will see a novelty in being able to buy an action shot of themselves in an 'event' Yay or Nay?
I don't think so, no. I think everyone likes a good pic of themselves.
"Action shot"? Well, they aren't. That's the point. There's little or no action in any of them. Flat ground. Boring background. No more than holiday snaps that their mates could take. People aren't mugs!
Most racers, and those capable of riding the techy trails will have the 'been there, done that' feeling and find the cost a bit much to dish out every event. Yay or Nay?
£1k - £4k+ for a bike? £5 for a good pic of you riding it? Again, I think everyone likes a good pic of themsevles.
There may be technical areas they could use but from what i have seen of these events the more technical bits tend to either have massive backlogs of walking/riding. People running down them or just plain avoided. Not much picture oppertunities. Remember the photographer is working on percentages so not good. Yay or Nay
Totally, utterly missed the mark entirely there chap. Sorry. The BBF course in particular was littered with superb photo opportunites, and after the first half of the first lap, the field spaced out and nearly everyone rode nearly everything every time. Mrs PP is not a technical rider at all, but even she only walked the bridge and rode all the rocky bits. 🙂
I love that one of the T-Mobile guy in the water! But I'm not convinced that if it was me in that picture I'd [i]necessarily[/i] have paid £5 for it. 😀
I jolly well would if I'd have got it that wrong and made a complete arse of myself 🙂
In fact, I very nearly did exactly that on the first lap, missed the faceplant/bellyflop more by luck than judgement ...
Did he fall, or was he pushed for wearing the T mobile kit?
As a professional photographer there are some givens, but one being that you need to be producing images that sell.
Or you have no business.
One way to have images that sell is to produce more interesting images than the competition.
A few images here are no more than snaps, that much is obvious & I'm sure the photograpgers who took would agree, it’s something we can pretty much all do, regardless of training and experience. That doesn’t de-value them in the eyes of the rider or for that matter the photographer. KingTut’s first picture was just one such example, it's his favourite picture but technically it's no more than a snap but as a professional, it's not an image I'd personally have been looking to take.
As riders, you will know from competing in these events that off-board flash units are pretty much a given now-a-days, you only need look at the magazines to better appreciate what I’m talking about, but if you are in any doubt, look at the bike and rider’s shadows and where they fall.
When you’re out on the trails and hill sides for hours at a time taking pictures, if your only master is selling images to the riders then you have a simplified brief; whereas if it’s the race organisers, magazine or the charity (?) or any other 3rd party, they you need a good spread if images from the event, not just a many images taken of a few corners / bomb holes / corners.
These were used in one of this month's magazines:
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The best sellers are where there's a little "action".
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Apart from the night-time shot, all others were at Clic24 2010. I have many others from events, but I think it serves to illustrate what I'm talking about (I hope!). I had three masters at the event, you the riders, the magazine and the race organisers who want images they can use for PR & marketing. You try and satisfy all 3 over the course of 24hrs as best you can.
I've had 2261 visitors and 25 orders from the Clic event, ergo, you're never going to make enough to retire on, so never give up that day job!
The best sellers are where there's a little "action".
Thank you, kind sir. I was hoping as much. I really was. 😀
To be fair, mtb is not a sport where the 'action' is obvious when shot - pulling a funny face, looking a bit pooped and lolling out your tongue is about it really 😉
Add into the equation that most of the events in the UK are muddy field rides it doesn't give much scope for creativity...
One thing that's been mentioned here is that financially, the best events are those that attract a new crowd, it's rare to be selling images to the same racers weekend in, weekend out, all season long.
Personally, I try and sustain the professional photographers by buying their images, but that's my own personal take.