OK you've sold it top me SirJon, we should begin to scrap the NHS as of the new Parliament, reduce taxation in line with the lowered expenditure and let healthcare be provided by private means.
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Public servant pay freeze....
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Posted 2 years ago #
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That's not the genius bit. This is the genius bit.
Instead of the poor people being annoyed with you and the rich people, YOU GET THEM ANNOYED WITH EACH OTHER!! You play off the public sector against the private, and everyone moans about how everyone else has it easy.
Didn't anybody read this, earlier?
Incidentally, in my bit of a NHS Trust strategic senior management have tried 2 major reorganisations of our directorate - both failed miserably and cost over £1m. They're now having a third go and have decided to bring senior staff from the operational side of things on board to do it 'properly'!
Posted 2 years ago # -
All this chat about public vs private sector pay scales... if only there were some official statistics on the matter. Oh wait, there are
The percentage difference between the median level of full-time earnings in the public sector (£523 per week in April 2008) and the private sector (£460 per week) narrowed over the year to April 2008, following annual increases of 4.3 per cent and 4.6 per cent respectively.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Lord Greenville,
I think everyone, like us, who work within the NHS sees these ridiculous quantities of money wasted.
Personally many of the failings in patient care and elevated costs are due to the fundamental differences in public and private sector operations and mindsets.
I think the NHS has to be one or the other.
As an example I worked with a lady recently who had spent 11 weeks longer than necessary in hospital (cost to NHS probably £250 per day) because 2 different teams were batting her referral between them over who would eventually pick up her, admittedly, expensive package of care.
The reason for this is that each department tries to act like a private sector business and protect/maximise its own budget.
We see waste in this case as staff time and expertise is used to do assessments showing that the other 'business' should be footing the bill, yet the money comes out of the public purse whoever finally picks it up.
We see poor patient care due to longer than necessary hospital care, the increased chance of hospital acquired infection and the knock on effect of bed blocking to other patients further down the system.
No one benefits and thousands of ££££££££ wasted.
Posted 2 years ago # -
druidh,
I suspect that the term 'Health Professional' refers to doctors and not Health Care Assistants and Nurses, as there are very few Nurses I have met who are earning in excess of £50K per annum.
But you already knew that, didn't you.
Average UK earnings are £24K approximately, which means that most of the employees you will meet withing a Hospital below the level of Ward Sister will be earning less than the National Average, and significantly less than the £50,000 per annum average that you linked to.
Now I wouldn't mind if Nurses were on an average of £50K but there you go...
Posted 2 years ago # -
Either that or the Missus has been lying to me and has a secret retirement fund stashed away
Posted 2 years ago # -
druidh, not sure that those figures are entirely relevant. In the first paragraph, are health professionals purely those working in the public sector? It's also dependant on how you group an occupation. Stockbroker? Company director? I guess in any case, I want the people looking after me in a life/death situation to be the most highly paid on earth!
The second paragraph is also interesting, but what you'd really want is a comparison of similar jobs between public and private sector employees. Maybe the answer is to care a bit less about other peoples circumstances and concentrate more on my own?
Getting back to the OP, I still agree with him - perfectly within his rights to complain. The difference I see being the private sector actually IS slightly independant of the recession. There are still companies doing well and awarding pay rises and bonuses. Ergo, perform well and you will be rewarded. Public sector? Perform well, who cares? Freezes only for you matey.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Let's face it the top and bottom of the matter is that some people are crap and others are saints - no system can reward each group accordingly and so some people don't get what they deserve.
Simplest solution is to just ignore it and go ride your bike.
Posted 2 years ago # -
I think all of you exponents of the "google then cut and paste" school of internet arguing need to remember that nobody reads those lengthy tracts of shite except the poster (and maybe not even him/her). Your "opponent" doesn't read them, and disinterested spectators don't read them either.
Just thought I'd mention it.
Posted 2 years ago # -
johnners - Member
I think all of you exponents of the "google then cut and paste" school of internet arguing need to remember that nobody reads those lengthy tracts of shite except the poster (and maybe not even him/her). Your "opponent" doesn't read them, and disinterested spectators don't read them either.Just thought I'd mention it.
Erm ok thanks for that helpful and eloquently put point, you should speak for yourself.
Never mind that the quote may well be pertinent to the matter in discussion, If you cant be bothered to read what you considor to be "lengthy tracts of shite" that's your choice,I'm really not interested, I'm not sure anyone is really, if they were perhaps they could draw pictures or summarise in mono-syllabic words for you. No offence intended.Let's face it the top and bottom of the matter is that some people are crap and others are saints - no system can reward each group accordingly and so some people don't get what they deserve.
Simplest solution is to just ignore it and go ride your bike.
Lol Amen to that! I'm off.
Posted 2 years ago # -
The Taxpayers' Alliance? Give me a break. Their faux-Wat Tyler peasants' revolt schtick is actually insulting, given who bankrolls 'em.
I've encountered my share of waste and incompetence in the NHS. NuLAb took a good-value, if under-funded service, and threw money at Bliar's "modernising", top-down visions, instead of the local coalface.
But I've also seen many, many examples of outstanding (and - yes - efficient) care, delivered under great pressure, 24/7. It's not something I want to dispense with (and I speak as a patient, not as a ward grunt). There is much that healthcare systems across the developed world could learn from each other - but that still doesn't support the TPA's marketised vision. That's not how they organise acute care on the continent, whatever the easy talk of choice and competition by desk jockey policy wonks. But then they have their own agenda: the likes of Karol Sikora, Cinven, United et al are positioning themselves nicely for what they hope will be the fragmentation of the NHS. I'll make a prediction: when it comes to a reasonable degree of comprehensive care (esp in terms of acute stuff, ITU, A+E etc), it won't be the **** "market" that picks up the slack - it will be major teaching hospitals and charity. Privatisation won't solve MRSA, C.Diff, or the challenges of looking after an ever-older demographic, whatever the TPA think.edit: oh, and great post, PhilO.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Taxpayer alliance? Doctors for reform? Both marginal organisations a of known utter right wing nutterness.
Posts from SirJonLordofBike1 quoting them? Mendacious at best. Nothing to back up these wild allegations from people idealogically opposed to a state monopoly.
If you believe either group you are sip0ly stupid - both groups wish to see the end of univbersal provision of healthcare.
Posted 2 years ago # -
SirJonLordofBike1
Absolute spend per head rather than %of Gdp is probably more informative (UK GDp v's Dutch ???!)Netherlands GDP is higher than UK - therefore total spend per person is significantly higher - thats why their outcomes are better.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Maybe the Public servants could donate their pay increases to a charity for inner city schools? That would be sooo nice
Posted 2 years ago # -
Sorry chaps, I seem to have caused a row!
If George (we're all in this together, yah?) Osborne had suggested a nationwide tax on everyone to help 'us' all out of this mess, I would be the first to agree.
As it is, he has effectively suggested a tax on only those of us who work in the public sector.
Then again, he is a Tory and they can't be seen to be raising taxes, so he's just not going to pay the money to me in the first place.....
As for my pension, I earn it. I earn it by working internal rotation for 20 years; that's nights and days. I earn it by getting one weekend in 4 off for 20 years. I earn it by being at work on Christmas day, 15 out of the last 20 years. I earn it by dealing with people who think it's a good thing to hit me. I earn it by dealing with those who are HIV positive. I earn it by dealing with those with active TB. I'm doing a lot of earning it at the moment by dealing with those with swine flu. I earn it by sitting holding the hands of people who are dying who have no relatives.
I earn it by being good at my job.
Posted 2 years ago # -
crikey - Member
Sorry chaps, I seem to have caused a row!
If George (we're all in this together, yah?) Osborne had suggested a nationwide tax on everyone to help 'us' all out of this mess, I would be the first to agree.
As it is, he has effectively suggested a tax on only those of us who work in the public sector.
No - he's suggesting that it shouldn't only be private sector workers feeling the pain.
Posted 2 years ago # -
No - he's suggesting that it shouldn't only be private sector workers feeling the pain.
I see no suggestion of any 'national' pain.
He is not 'suggesting' that to public sector workers, he's taxing us because he can.
If 'we're all in this together' then lets all donate our pay rises, otherwise it's a stealth tax on the public sector.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Not all private sector workers ARE feeling the pain though druidh. And yet ALL public sector workers will.
Posted 2 years ago # -
I thought his plan was only to freeze the pay of those earning over £18k, not ALL public sector workers?
Posted 2 years ago # -
Its all about cheap political point scoring to appease murdoch press reading classes. The Murdoch papers have been running a campaign for ages about the "bloated public sector" and " gold plated public sector pensions funded by the taxpayer"
Cameron knows that few public sector workers vote tory so does not care about peeing them off. This initiative gives him the opportunity to appease Murdoch and to attack the standard tory bogeyman.
The hypocrisy and chutzpah of the man is incredible - "the NHS is safe with us" So his first move will be to alienate and demoralise the workforce. Very clever.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Have you been drinking again?
Posted 2 years ago # -
Who me? You the one on the windup
Chaps - I should let you into Druidhs dirty little secret.
Edited out from a sense of fairness
Posted 2 years ago # -
I thought his plan was only to freeze the pay of those earning over £18k, not ALL public sector workers?
Right.... and all those private sector workers earning over £18k? They get to contribute exactly what to the recovery of the country?
Let me say it again, for all those hard of thinking; I don't mind a pay freeze if we all have one, but to choose one sector, those, as noted who probably wouldn't vote Tory, is taking the piss.
George (heir to the Osborne baronetcy of Ballentaylor, County Tipperary, Ireland, who in 2009 received strong criticism for the way he had handled his expenses, after he was found to have 'flipped' his second home, changing which property he designated as his second home in order to pay less capital gains tax. The Lib Dems estimated he owed £55,000 to the public purse as a result of this. He had previously paid back £1,193 on overpayments on his mortgage and chauffeur fares and was ridiculed when it emerged that he had claimed £47 for two copies of a DVD of his own speech on "value for taxpayers' money" Osborne is currently being investigated by the Parliamentary Standards Commissioner over mortgage payments from 2003, and second home designation between 2001-2003. Also a member of the Bullingdon Club, that was 'infamous for "trashing" restaurants and other riotous behaviour' and 'is open only to sons of aristocratic families and the super-rich') Osborne suggesting a pay freeze for public sector workers is somewhat indicative of him being a fool.
Posted 2 years ago # -
I don't have any "dirty little secrets" TJ.
Posted 2 years ago # -
OK TJ and all the other lefties on here lets front up. How much tax would you be happy to pay to keep public spending at its current level, give all the public sector a cost of living increase and still pay off the budget deficit? Better still how much would you be prepared to pay (if as you seem to think money is all that's required) to get our health, education, transport, defence, social services and justice systems fit for purpose?
Posted 2 years ago # -
Surely the question is "how many public sector jobs are you willing to sacrifice in order to ensure a pay rise for those that remain?"
Posted 2 years ago # -
up on the downs -
My view - 50% over £100 000, 75% over £250 000 Raise thresholds above the rate of inflation. Include bonuses in taxable income, tax inheritence higher
Cancel trident, cancel the aircraft carriers, troops out of Afghanistan and Iraq. That should go some way to sorting the mess out and would raise an awful lot more money than the tory proposals.
Druidh - how much taxpayers money in your pension pot that you got 15 yrs early fro mt the bank as it was bailed out by the taxpayer?
I don't really care about the pay rise as such what does annoy me is the continual harping on by folk who do not know about " gold plated pensions" and "bloated public sector" neither of which stand up to independent scrutiny
Posted 2 years ago # -
If asking inane questions is the order of the day, how much would you pay me to look after you or your significant other on Intensive Care for a day, or a week, or a month?
Let's put a price on it, because the 'old price of everything, value of nothing' society seems to be in the ascendant....
Posted 2 years ago # -
Come on TJ what % for those less than £100,000? I'm guessing that includes you and me and most other people on here. There aren't enough rich around to soak for the revenue you'd need.
My vote is for 25% flat rate on any income and close every last loophole. Simplifying the tax system like this makes it cheaper to get the tax collected and removes tax avoidance. Also raise thresholds enough to take the low paid out of the tax system completely thus making it pay to go to work.
Posted 2 years ago # -
If asking inane questions is the order of the day,
What's inane about it Crikey? Come on how much tax would you be willing to pay for world class public services?
Posted 2 years ago # -
removes tax avoidance
Funny how no government has really grasped this particular nettle, no?
Easier to tax the muppets.....
Posted 2 years ago # -
How much is it worth for me to look after your demented elderly parents with kindness love and skill? Or would you rather they were drugged into immobility and warehoused?
Bit to late for that mate they're both dead and yes my Dad was demented at the end and I didn't see much kindness love and skill in the care professions in the process.
Posted 2 years ago # -
up on the downs - flat rate taxation of 25 % would mean massive cuts in public spending. I like the principle of progressive taxation.
I would happily pay 10% more tax if it was needed - but it isn't - what is needed is stopping waste - such as trident and the two new aircraft carriers and stopping the rich from tax avoidance.
We are still a low tax economy - lower than most of the rest of Europe
Posted 2 years ago # -
More than I pay at present, but only if everyone pays it.
ie, no offshore cobblers, no tax exiles, no secret accountant island bullshit.
Posted 2 years ago #
Topic Closed
This topic has been closed to new replies.
