At what point did I start defending the record of the labour party?

just the lesser of two evils IMHO, and presently as good as useless

I just find it offensive what the Tory’s are doing. My better half works in the charity sector, and I see the effect daily, of Tory cuts impacting on the day to day existence of the disabled, and the most vulnerable in society. The casual inhumanity of it truly scandalous. And monumentally depressing

And ultimately, its all to fund tax breaks to those who have the most

A recent Tory policy review meeting caught on camera….

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owI7DOeO_yg[/video]

Is this a late entry for (comedy) thread of the year?

Is this a late entry for (comedy) thread of the year?

It’s no Mammal Top Trumps, I can tell you! 🙂

binners massive +1 to that last post.

It’s difficult to avoid the conclusion that people who don’t care about such things are just poor quality human beings.

It’s no Mammal Top Trumps, I can tell you!

True, but you can’t beat a bit of Mitchell and Webb……

is that because there’s now more significantly low paid people?

You’ve heard of the personal allowance?

Have a look at the figures!

its all to fund tax breaks to those who have the most

Shall we look at that one again?

I’m not going to defend the current Tory party, why would I?
Perhaps people need to go back and read my first post in this thread before marking me down as a tory fanboy, and look at what point I was making.
Then read binners’ first post which proves it. 😆

I’ve always regarded Tory’s as the naturally selfish, who couldn’t really care less about those less fortunate than themselves

Cheers to the various contributors to this thread who’ve demonstrated just how wrong I was. I’m a bit embarrassed about my former opinions. Sorry

Well some do say he is a vengeful God…

2 Thessalonians 3:10

For even when we were with you, we would give you this command: If anyone is not willing to work, let him not eat.

Proverbs 12:24

The hand of the diligent will rule, while the slothful will be put to forced labour.

😀

Proverbs 22:7

The rich rules over the poor, and the borrower is the slave of the lender.

Acts 2: 44, 45

44 And all that believed were together, and had all things in common;
45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.

Acts 4:32-35

32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.
33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.
34 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,
35 And laid them down at the apostles’ feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.

gods a commie!

Plodgate – the anti-tory brigades get their comeuppance

The story was broken by the Tory supporting Sun newspaper. It was enthusiastically taken up by other Tory supporting newspapers such as the Daily Mail. The greatest outrage was expressed by the Police Federation – an organisation which isn’t noted for having a left-wing agenda. Andrew Mitchell was eventually sacked by the leader of the Tory Party – following pressure from some within the Tory Party, and finally, as we now know, damning evidence provided the Tory Deputy Chief Whip.

But the whole affair has been a conspiracy by “anti-tory brigades” ?

Deuteronomy 5-14

but the seventh day is a sabbath unto Jehovah thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy man-servant, nor thy maid-servant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy man-servant and thy maid-servant may rest as well as thou.

& your point is Z-11?

I’m going to nick SBob’s ‘turbo belm’ epithet for Christmas.

Binners/Yossarian and whoever else keeps hamming it up with the ‘Tories are evil’ rubbish – the old false consciousness argument about turkeys voting for Christmas is garbage. Plenty of people on lower than average wages will and have voted for the Tories because they agree with some of the underlying conservative principles: smaller government; that individuals are better able to spend their own earnings than the state doing it; more personal responsibility; and the deeply unfashionable stuff about family etc.

If you keep bleating on about how evil tories enter into politics solely to trample on the faces of the poor then it just illustrates the paucity of your arguments. No-one really believes that Tory politicians perform a daily calculus to determine how best to harm the poor, do they? Isn’t there a tiny chance that some Tories enter into politics to try and reduce poverty? Tories are people too!

In any case, back to OP’s point, I couldn’t agree more. It’s strangely satisfying to see the guardian now rotate ferociously between their instinct to blame the police, and their instinct to criticise the Tories.

I love a good bible verse, me 😀

Compassion, charity, forgiveness, redistribution of riches, unselfishness, giving of oneself for those less fortunate, equal respect and unconditional love for the rich/poor/sick/healthy, I could go on… but if He was on the electoral roll today, what would Jesus vote?

Isn’t there a tiny chance that some Tories enter into politics to try and reduce poverty?

Post of the week! 😆

The post about military spending in the US acting as a buffer for boom/bust economics and being their version of our public services is a good one….however government spending always has to be paid for, a healthy private sector funds the public sector.

This is basic stuff, when the money runs out cuts have to be made until the private sector is making money again….labour buried their heads in the sand and just kept borrowing…..in a perverse way it would’ve fascinating if they’d stayed in power to see what they would have done with the economy….cuts are against their nature and the unions pull the strings with regard to pay rises in the public sector under that party….thankfully the British public saw where this was going and made the decision for them.

The trick for any party in government is taxing enough to fund a decent public sector but not too much as to cripple those making the money.

Neither party gets the balance right, labour go on a spending spree every time they get the keys to no.10, their political ideology is to always expand public services….and end up putting the country in debt….while the tories ideology of individual responsibility and small government often involves cutting everything to the bare bones leaving large sections of the public disgruntled at losing what they had under labour.

In a way we could do with a political party that doesnt actually have any particular ideology, a party that just has a basic grasp that ‘stuff has to be paid for’ and ‘dont spend what you dont have’….

….this politics stuff is easy.

Julianwilson – you kind of illustrated my point there.

If you keep bleating on about how evil tories enter into politics solely to trample on the faces of the poor then it just illustrates the paucity of your arguments. No-one really believes that Tory politicians perform a daily calculus to determine how best to harm the poor, do they? Isn’t there a tiny chance that some Tories enter into politics to try and reduce poverty? Tories are people too!

It’s not that the Tories are evil, they are simply selfish. I’d have a lot more respect for the average Tory if they just admitted that they care about themselves and their families and don’t have the time/inclination to worry about anyone else.

You can attempt to dress it up how you like but that’s the essential truth of it.

bainbrge: how?

deviant – Member

labour go on a spending spree every time they get the keys to no.10, their political ideology is to always expand public services….and end up putting the country in debt………..while the tories ideology of individual responsibility and small government often involves cutting everything to the bare bones

Link :

Tories vow to match Labour spending

Quote :

The Conservatives sought last night to destroy Labour claims that they would cut public services by issuing a formal pledge to match Gordon Brown’s spending plans………… George Osborne vowed last night to stick to Gordon Brown’s plan of increasing public spending by 2 per cent in real terms over the next three years

….this politics stuff is easy.

Agreed. But apparently not quite as easy as you appear to think.

It’s not that the Tories are evil, they are simply selfish. I’d have a lot more respect for the average Tory if they just admitted that they care about themselves and their families and don’t have the time/inclination to worry about anyone else.

You can attempt to dress it up how you like but that’s the essential truth of it.

I’m not sure that’s anywhere near an essential truth. I suspect you could make that charge against virtually any human being.

You could play dialectical games like this all day. Tory policy is predicated on the assumption that people are best making decisions for themselves, and Labour policy is predicated on the assumption that people need decisions making for them. Your idea of ‘worrying about’ someone is another’s idea of unnecessary interference.

Julianwilson – I interpreted your post as you implying it was inconceivable that some Tories enter into politics to try and reduce poverty. I could have misinterpreted you though.

Phew for a moment it looked like this was running out of steam!

Good post Ernie, and when you add the actual trend in government spending hopefully we can be relieved of some of the BS arguments about current government policies!

But for those who believe in history finally repeating itself, the last government in the UK to cut government spending was what type and when?

Tory policy is predicated on the assumption that people are best making decisions for themselves, and Labour policy is predicated on the assumption that people need decisions making for them. Your idea of ‘worrying about’ someone is another’s idea of unnecessary interference.

…and meanwhile over the last couple of hundred years in the UK we have seen that “people making decisions for themselves” fairly consistently results in the privileged, well connnected and morally ruthless winning out in time over those born into poverty or raised with more egalitarian (or indeed Christian!) values.

Top heavy/interventionist/’unneccessary influence’ and the bloaty but accountable public sector is still the lesser of two evils for many people.

I don’t like Cameron, milliband or clegg. I didn’t like Blair and I despised brown. I can see a pattern emerging……

Deviant – if you’re standing next time, I’ll vote for you!

Instead of fannying about with a different balance of public/private provision, I’d hand the entire running of the country, lock stock and barrel, to Tesco. At least They’d sort out the logistics! The problem at the moment is that they’re making all the front line staff redundant, while leaving the same bunch of ring-fenced numb-skulls in charge!

I don’t like Cameron, milliband or clegg. I didn’t like Blair and I despised brown. I can see a pattern emerging……

latent racism?

😉

ernie_lynch

Its the same promise Labour made about Tory spending plans prior to the 1997 election, Blair and Brown said they would stick to Conservative plans during their first term….

Its a way of putting the electorate at ease that there wont be some massive and overnight upheaval under a new government, you’re not seriously suggesting core Tory policy would be to spend to Labour’s levels are you?!….that link is from 2007, i wonder if the pledge still stands?

You could play dialectical games like this all day. Tory policy is predicated on the assumption that people are best making decisions for themselves

It’s supposed to be yes – the reality is very different though.

Julianwilson – I interpreted your post as you implying it was inconceivable that some Tories enter into politics to try and reduce poverty.

Perhaps you could find us a quote from a Tory MP who’s said this?

latent racism?

I hate chukka umuna and Dianne abbot too. I an equal opportunities hater. 😀

WTF is that graph Zulu those on more than 2 million are paying 30 % more INCOME TAX when the top rate has been cut – can I see the working for that please= can I see it without the changes that Labour promised/did but happened when this govt was in power and the ones the coalition have done
It seems to me to be quite unlikely to be true
Cheers

Isn’t there a tiny chance that some Tories enter into politics to try and reduce poverty?

Yes there is a tiny chance of that shame its not a huge chance and their guiding principle

Does anyone enter politics to reduce poverty?

I reluctantly concede this: If the universe is infinite, and the extrapolation of this is that there exists an infinite number of planets similar to ours except for minute differences, then yes it is just conceivable that somewhere in a galaxy far far away there is a Conservative politician who in his heart of hearts really joined up to reduce poverty.

There is also a small chance that there may be one or two MP’s of any political persuasion in the current government (doh!) house of commons who really really are in it for the poor. Most likely not in Blue flavour though.

you’re not seriously suggesting core Tory policy would be to spend to Labour’s levels are you?!….that link is from 2007, i wonder if the pledge still stands?

I’m seriously suggesting that your highly simplistic suggestion that public spending rises under Labour, and falls under the Tories, is deeply flawed.

Of course the Tories would like you to believe it, in the same way as they would like to believe that the tax burden reduces under them – another false myth.

But yes, you’re right – this politics stuff is easy. Just as soon as you have waded through the bullshit that they expect you to naively believe

😉

teamhurtmore
Thatcher reduced spending from 45% of GDP to 35%….it then rose again during the recession at the end of the 80s to 40% before steadily declining again to 36% around 2000….then after 2000 public spending increased rapidly to 47% where it has been since.

Perhaps this bloke should take the reins as Chancellor again?:

Clarke enjoyed an increasingly successful record as Chancellor, as the economy recovered from the recession of the early 1990s and a new monetary policy was put into effect after Black Wednesday. He was able to reduce the basic rate of Income Tax from 25 to 23%, reduce government’s share of GDP, and to reduce the budget deficit from £50.8 billion in 1993 to £15.5 billion in 1997. Clarke’s successor, the Labour Chancellor Gordon Brown, continued these policies, which elminated the deficit in 1998 and allowed Brown to record four years of budget surplus’ 1998 – £703 million, 1999 – £12 billion, 2000 – £16.7 billion, 2001 – £8.4 billion. Interest rates, inflation and unemployment all fell during Clarke’s tenure at HM Treasury. Clarke’s success was such that Brown felt he had to pledge to keep to Clarke’s spending plans in January 1997, ahead of the election which was due to be held in May 1997 because the Labour Party considered its economic credibility to be its biggest electoral weakness. Clarke’s spending limits remained in place for the first two years of the Labour government that was elected in 1997

Ken Clarke is one of the few Tory MPs I have any respect for. Shame he’s been sidelined in favour of idiots like Theresa May.

WTF is that graph Zulu those on more than 2 million are paying 30 % more INCOME TAX when the top rate has been cut – can I see the working for that please

It comes from that notoriously independent and fair journalist Guido Fawkes, so it would be very surprising if it was inaccurate. I mean, even though he’s a Tory party strategy advisor, what reason would be have to misrepresent the figures?

The graph also ignores everything apart from income tax of course – guess who a rise in VAT impacts on the most?

The chances of a Tory MP of the present vintage entering parliament to reduce povert is as likely as me entering a pub to enjoy a nice glass of orange juice.

Ken Clarke is a handy fig leaf for these hatchet men. As well as heseltine. Brought in to review business, he’s advised a more interventionist stance by government. Chances of that happening? What do you think…..?

Maybe there’s a chance they have some compassion, or maybe not

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/mar/13/cameron-pressure-identify-poverty-bill

t comes from that notoriously independent and fair journalist Guido Fawkes,

You mean he has taken the “evidence from a right wing polemicist and presented it in an attempt to distort and misrepresent what is actually happening

I cannot believe Zulu would do such a thing