Apparently, the government are proposing to tax warm food, such as Cornish pasties, at 20%

I look at most high streets across the land and see a general decline, customers driven away by the aggravation of trying to park their cars and put off by the poor choice and high prices.

I don’t blame the poor retailer, who is saddled with exorbitant rents, high rates, staffing costs etc etc. They do not have the buying power to negotiate deals that one would find in the larger stores. For this reason, the small high street retailer is a threatened species, with characterless chains peddling their shoddy goods shipped in from China by the container load.

One saving grace of our dwindling local high streets is the local baker. They struggle to compete with the large supermarket chains and this sort of measure will undoubtedly be another nail in the coffin of the traditional high street.

The problem with politics in Britain is that those coming up with all bright ideas have little or no experience of what it’s like to be a normal person with a normal job, trying to navigate through life..

Regardless of political persuasion, the the majority of the people at the top of the political hierarchy have enjoyed a life of privilege. They progress through the elitist education system, become government advisors and then politicians. They haven’t done a normal day’s work in their lives and never will! They are fundamentally unsuitable for the office they hold because they have no experience of real life. They are of course highly articulate and skilled in the business of persuading people to believe their rhetoric. Some would say these are the best people for the job, but I would beg to differ.

There is way too much deference towards middle class twits. Successive administrations and top executives have made a monumental mess of running the country. We need a much better representation for small businesses and normal hard working people..

Amazing what Cornish pasties can get you ranting about! 😉

Quite right. In the last 10 years our local high streets have become pretty crap. Just fast food takaways and sainsbury locals/Tesco express’.
Most of the bakers, greengrocers, butchers all gone out of business leaving us with fight spots for the wetherspoons crowds. Thanks government.

I thought the tax was supposed to make things easier for the bakers, as it was supermarkets that could sell the food without tax at the moment?

I thought the “pasty tax” was actually the shutting of a “pasty loophole”…. shops were claiming that hot pasties weren’t hot, takeaway food (which is subject to VAT), but arguing that they were only heated to improve their appearance and smell, and so should not be treated as hot food (for tax purposes).

They are of course highly articulate and skilled in the business of persuading people to believe their rhetoric

Clearly. And where did you hear the “pasty Tax” expression?

Is it not only reheated food? I was nattering with someone in our local baker the other week about it; they said they would not be affected as their stuff stays hot, or something like that…

“This smells worse than a mouldy pasty. Just days after George Osborne slapped a massive tax hike on ‘hot’ pies, the Tories got a six-figure donation from someone who makes ‘cold’ snacks. This could reheat David Cameron’s cash-for-policies scandal.”

http://www.thisisplymouth.co.uk/pound-100k-donation-Tories-deepens-pasty-tax-row/story-16192640-detail/story.html

It seems someone was listening….

“George Osborne slapped a massive tax hike on ‘hot’ pies“

Jez Avery must have been annoyed.

When was the last time you saw an independent bakers? It’s all Gregs and Cooplands round here.

We do still have a butcher though, nom nom nom sausages nom dry cured bacon nom nom

So wrecker whats the your view of the govs u turn?

Is it a u-turn or merely a clarification? As I understood it, “hot” food is kept at a certain temperature through artificial means or reheated for sale. Items freshly baked from the oven that start their cooling cycle straight away and therefore could be purchased “hot”, warm or cold depending on the timing never attracted VAT, or am I wrong?

I’m missing the U-turn too it’s how I understood it, bakeries were avoiding vat by putting them in ‘warmers’ after they’d come out of the oven. These keep them hot for hours rather cooling down gradually but as they’re weren’t classed as reheated the vat man got nothing from this.

Last time I saw an independent bakers well 2 yesterday and only one Greggs or similar chain. My new local was selling pies made from a independent bakers on Sunday when I popped in for a post ride pint.

What about the caravan tax, hard to u turn a static you would think?

Dave took his eye off the ball letting Gideon get his budget through without looking at the detail. The only bit he was bothered about was the cut in the top rate of tax for his rich friends. He ignored the rest.

Since then he’s been a bit pissed off as the ‘pasty tax’ has undermined his man-of-the-people routine, which he somewhat pathetically believes we still believe. Here’s the news dave! Nadine Dorris had you bang to rights with her’two posh boys who don’t know what it’s like for ‘normal’ people, and care even less. The saddest thing about it is that he thinks this will make the slightest difference to this perception. It has more than a whiff of ‘let them eat cake’. It’s truly pathetic! True to form for the over- privileged idiot! Condescending and patronising in the extreme

So the Pasty tax is aimed at ‘warm food’? Personally i eat my pasties either fresh and hot out of the oven or cold out of the packet (convenience you see).

but as they’re weren’t classed as reheated the vat man got nothing from this.

It’s not food that has been “reheated” which attracts 20% VAT, it’s food which is sold above ambient temperature and is meant to be eaten in or near the shop, eg, fish and chips aren’t subject to VAT because they have been “reheated”, it is because they are sold above ambient temperature and are meant to be eaten in or near the shop.

As pasties will now not be subject to VAT, despite being sold above ambient temperature, this is indeed a straight forward U-turn by the government.

What I find interesting about the backlash against the pasty tax is that it appears to be motivated primarily by a class based reaction that sees those who attempted to introduce it as non-pasty eating, Eton educated, upper class toffs.

Thatcher had no such problem when she slashed taxes for the super-rich whilst at the same time implementing austerity policies for everyone else – and thereby causing a recession. Thatcher dramatically increased the basic rate of VAT and introduced it on fish and chips, (whilst dramatically reducing VAT on luxury yachts, for example)

There was an outcry when Thatcher introduced VAT on fish and chips but nothing approaching the level which has accompanied the pasty tax – certainly not from her own party. I can only conclude that this was because she wasn’t seen as an Eton educated upper class toff, but just an ordinary gal who happened to marry an incredibly wealthy man. A classic example of completely misplaced class conscious and something which she exploited to her maximum advantage.

The lesson for the Tories is quite clear – if you want to avoid accusation of being out of touch with ordinary working people, then chose leaders who can more successfully hoodwink ordinary working people by claiming that they didn’t enjoy privileged upbringings.

To be fair to Cameron he does recognise the value of that, hence the elevation of Sayeeda Warsi to the House of Lords and the Cabinet, despite the fact that she is both incompetent and an otherwise failed politician.

…The lesson for the Tories is quite clear – if you want to avoid accusation of being out of touch with ordinary working people, then chose leaders who can more successfully hoodwink ordinary working people by claiming that they didn’t enjoy privileged upbringings. Spin rules. Don’t p155 off the Murdochs.

Pasty-gate has nothing to with ‘pissing off the Murdochs’. Probably the most outspoken critic of the pasty tax is the Daily Mail, which Murdoch has absolutely no control over. And the Daily Mail is simply feeding what it has identified as a class prejudice against perceived upper-class toffs which are running the government.

IMO the Tories are actually doing an excellent job of defending Murdoch as best they can in very difficult circumstances. The refusal of Tory MPs on the Parliamentary Select Committee to condemn Murdoch as “not a fit and proper person to have the stewardship of a major international company” was nothing short of scandalous and blatantly partisan.

Apparently Ginsters have donated £100k to the Tories. The Pasty Tax details have been ‘clarified’. I’m sure there’s no connection.

Greggs are not having to charge the hot take-away food, but your local independent chippie is. A real victory for the little guys there then.

As pasties will now not be subject to VAT, despite being sold above ambient temperature,

Greggs are not having to charge the hot take-away food, but your local independent chippie is. A real victory for the little guys there then.

But, well, thats not what was announced is, is it!

Hot food, ie maintained and served as hot,including pasties, will be VAT chargable

Food that is above ambient temperature because its in cooling racks, ie lukewarm because it was cooked earlier, but not being delibaretly kept warm, is zero rated.

What I personally don’t get is the hysterical reaction to any and every consultation

i) you announce a potential change in the rules, and that you are launching a consultation over how it can be implemented.
http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/budget2012/vat-con-4801.pdf

ii) You consult, by seeking feedback from affected parties

This consultation invites comments on draft legislation changing the VAT treatment of supplies of catering, sports drinks, self storage, hairdressers’ chair rental, holiday caravans and alterations to listed buildings.
HMRC would like to hear from businesses involved in the manufacture and retail of affected goods or the provision of affected services; consumers affected by the changes and tax practitioners.

iii) you review the feedback, and make a decision

sorry – it seems to me that thats just how government should be run

would you prefer it if they didn’t consult?

was the plan to lower the top rate of tax a consultation too?

What I find interesting about the backlash against the pasty tax is that it appears to be motivated primarily by a class based reaction that sees those who attempted to introduce it as non-pasty eating, Eton educated, upper class toffs.

That may be the spin put on it by the media, but it was quite simply an unworkable mess of a tax that was nigh on impossible to implement, even though the rational behind it was essentially fair and justified.

That may be the spin put on it by the media, but it was quite simply an unworkable mess of a tax that was nigh on impossible to implement….

So you think that George Osborne hadn’t bothered to consider whether it it was “workable” or not, and now that he has, he suddenly realises that it isn’t ? The backlash has nothing to do with with it and it’s just “spin put on it by the media” ?

You must have a very low opinion of our Chancellor of the Exchequer’s intelligence.

It’s not food that has been “reheated” which attracts 20% VAT, it’s food which is sold above ambient temperature and is meant to be eaten in or near the shop, eg, fish and chips aren’t subject to VAT because they have been “reheated”, it is because they are sold above ambient temperature and are meant to be eaten in or near the shop.

That’s what I meant, I used reheated meaning kept warm and not allowed to cool. I’d hope my fish and chips are served hot, they’d be bloody awful cold.

I used reheated meaning kept warm and not allowed to cool.

Ah OK, well now if they are kept warm they will be subject to VAT. They must be allowed to continue to cool down to avoid VAT – whatever the ambient temperature. If they are kept warm in anyway such as the use of lights or packaging then they will be subject to VAT, as will asking to have them warmed up in the microwave.

That is great new for Greggs which knocks them out at an enormous rate, but not such good news for small independent bakers (who’s bosses aren’t chairman of the CBI’s northeast region) It also sounds just as “unworkable” as the original rule.

A simple way of levelling out the playing field of VAT on food would have been to remove it altogether regardless of the temperature or where its eaten.
But the Chancellors view of “fairness” is to increase VAT.
How about increasing the tax on “luxury” food and drink.
Champagne,Foie Gras,Caviar as a starters.

How about increasing the tax on “luxury” food…….

Well they would have to do more than increase the tax on luxury food…..there is no tax on caviar.

I think what prompted Thatcher to charge VAT on take-away food was the ghastly thought that whilst her and Dennis were having to pay VAT on their restaurant meals, the riff-raff were popping down to the chip shop and stuffing their faces VAT-free.

She also obviously needed to increase the scope of taxes to pay for a reduction in taxes for the wealthy, and a massive increase in unemployment.

So, do you think we should be encouraging people to eat unhealthy food?

Caviar is a lot lower fat in than sausage rolls after all!

Oh bless, Maggie was concerned about poor people eating unhealthy food 😀

Ah OK, well now if they are kept warm they will be subject to VAT. They must be allowed to continue to cool down to avoid VAT – whatever the ambient temperature. If they are kept warm in anyway such as the use of lights or packaging then they will be subject to VAT, as will asking to have them warmed up in the microwave.

Which is how precisely understood it was meant to be when they first announced the sausage roll tax.

Don’t confuse the situation by bringing sausage rolls into it ffs.

Sticking with pasties …… you apparently misunderstood the previous situation – as there has now been a change on how VAT will be applied.

Maggie, Maggie, Maggie, blah , blah, blah.
You usually talk more sense, but for all her faults, she’s not to blame this time.

And the Daily Mail is irrelevant too.
You may respect them for being “probably the most outspoken critic” of the pasty tax but no-one else really gives a fig what they write. Mail readers will not change how they vote, however much they pay for their pies, and Dave and George know that.
Sun readers are swing voters, often in the marginal seats. If they believe that they’re being cheated out of 20p on their lunch, then that’s the seed of the next Murdoch sponsored change of government.
Its the Sun wot won it

IMO the Tories are actually doing an excellent job of defending Murdoch as best they can in very difficult circumstances.The refusal of Tory MPs on the Parliamentary Select Committee to condemn Murdoch as “not a fit and proper person to have the stewardship of a major international company” was nothing short of scandalous and blatantly partisan.

Or a desperate attempt to claw back some favour.

Maggie, Maggie, Maggie, blah , blah, blah.
You usually talk more sense, but for all her faults, she’s not to blame this time.

The whole pastygate saga is purported to be an attempt to correct an alleged anomaly. I think it is rather pertinent to discuss the person who is responsible for this alleged anomaly.

Although I fully recognise how that must rile those who admired Thatcher and her policies. Which is a terrible shame.

And btw nowhere have I claimed that I “respect” the Daily Mail. In fact if you study my comment :

“the Daily Mail is simply feeding what it has identified as a class prejudice against perceived upper-class toffs”

You’ll notice the suggestion that they are “feeding” a class prejudice, which hardly implies that I have huge respect for their motives. HTH.

Don’t confuse the situation by bringing sausage rolls into it ffs.

The pasty tax confused me, up here it was known as sausage roll tax until the south realised pasties were effected.

Well since it is now commonly know as “pastygate” then mentioning sausage rolls can only further confuse the situation.

And btw you’ll find that sausage rolls are freely available in the South of England.