Parking fines – Advice/Help

Recently I received a letter from UKPS regarding a PCN that was issued back in October for “Not Clearly Displaying a Valid Permit” They only sent a reminder notice on the 2nd December with 28 days to pay the fine of 100£. The driver at the time of this incident was our Au Pair who recently moved back to France. About a week ago we rec’d a Final demand letter from IGSS LTD which I assume is their debt collection agency.

We have been in touch with our Au Pair who says yes he did get a PCN but was advised by his teachers at the college (where the car was parked) that he didn’t have to pay as they (UKPS) were a private company (not sure what that means) and he was waiting for the permit to be renewed.

Anyhow I have been in touch with UKPS and they say that they cannot transfer liability as the driver does not reside in England or Wales and I the owner/registered keeper of the vehicle are now liable for the fine? Is this enforceable? Trying to reach them by phone is near impossible so everything has to be done by email or snail mail.

More over I have received another PCN final reminder before legal action notice from a company called CIVIL ENFORCEMENT Ltd. However their letter states a completely different issue date from above and also an incident date which pre dates their PCN issue date. Tried calling them as well but might as well try calling someone in another galaxy. £%!%£ annoying. I have sent off a letter querying their letter.

Anyone have any experience with the above company ie Civil Enforcement Ltd.

To me these companies sound and behave like rogues with as little information provided to try and resolve the issue.

As you say, your au pair was driving. Their ‘contract’ is with him, and you should wish them well with their efforts to enforce it.

The only reason they’re bullshitting you is because they have zero chance of getting any cash off him.

Pepipoo forums will offer advice on the wording of any response.

Thanks MH will give Pepipoo a whirl

Unfortunately you have made contact with them, this is what they hope will happen!

I received one from a similar company about 3 years ago for overstaying my parking by a couple of minutes. I looked into the company and found it the “fine” is in actual fact an invoice which is not worth the paper it is printed on or enforceable.

I just ignored the 2 “fines” and letter from the “debt collecting agency” (which was actually the same address as the parking company) and have heard nothing since. The DVLA sell them your vehicle details so they can contact you in the hope an officially looking letter and threat of Debt collectors will scare you in to paying up. It’s a numbers game for them. Send out X amount of letters and hope that a percentage pay..

Only council and police parking tickets are enforceable.

I’d ignore it, don’t correspond any further and they will get bored. There was a bit on watchdog about it a few years back.

Have a rake around and see what comes up but there is NO WAY I’d be paying it.

It sounds like the car was parked on private property? If so, they don’t have sound legal grounds to pursue a claim whoever was driving. These companies know that so rely on pestering and threatening behaviour to get you to pay. Ignore them and eventually they will give up. I know the constant letters are annoying but don’t bother trying to contact/reason with these companies. They are not interested in the rights/wrongs of things, only in making money.

Things have changed though – a couple of recent court rulings (in England, anyhow) have made it much more likely that they will be able to enforce some of these charges, so ignoring it is no longer the safest way to deal with it.

The issue here isn’t whether the contract exists, or is reasonable, just that it applies to someone who isn’t the OP.

arogers – yes I believe the car was parked at a local college campus.

Thanks bear in mind to ignore the legal notices.

So many things about this annoy me. It doesn’t seem right that the DVLA be allowed to hand out information to 3rd parties? or am I wrong in thinking this?

So many things about this annoy me but it doesn’t seem right that the DVLA be allowed to hand out information to 3rd parties? or am I wrong in thinking this?

Yes, this is nice little money-making scam for the DVLA, who are in legitimate partnership and trading your details will all sorts of scumbag companies.

You just have to remember that this is a civil claim, not a ‘fine’. It cannot be applied to the vehicle, just the person who entered the car park, read their notices and thereby entered a contract with them to pay for parking. That person is not you, even if you do happen to own the car.

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-2242801/The-trick-beat-private-parking-tickets-I-dodged-service-station-fine.html

Utter bandits.. The lot of them! Jog I say.

I’ll bet if you check the “PCN” it says
Parking
Charge
Notice

And not

Penalty
Charge
Notice

Note the very recent Supreme Court ruling on ParkingEye v Beavis.

Unfortunately ignoring private parking tickets is no longer an option and they’re starting to go after unpaid tickets from the past (I know, I’ve had a letter from the collection people).

It’s gone to as far as it can in law and the law has decided so long as the penalty charge is ‘reasonsble’ (and they seem to have decided that if the loan authorities cab charge c. £100, well £85 in the Beavis case) then it is payable.

Because it’s a supreme Court ruling it sets a binding precedent for lower courts to follow.

Not sure what the position is if you weren’t driving but I’d imagine it’s a case of your car so you’re ultimately liable.

1981milked yep parking charge notice not penalty..

the more I read about it the more it boils my p***.

Not sure what the position is if you weren’t driving but I’d imagine it’s a case of your car so you’re ultimately liable.

Absolutely not – they can’t form a contract with a car, only a human. It’s obviously what they’d want you to think, though.

No they can’t, they form a contact with the owner of the car regardless of who is driving it…

Very important to read the court ruling

https://www.supremecourt.uk/cases/uksc-2015-0116.html

Id still take my chances at ignoring it. They tried it with my brother last year, he saw them issuing the ticket before his ticket ran out! So he just calmly removed it from his window and handed it back. The arsehole just smirked and said “worth a try” before walking away.

Same with a work colleague last year, I told him to ignore it which he did and he hasn’t heard a peep for months.

It boils my piss aswell mate, i hate seeing people just coughing up straight away to resolve it.

As my buddy says “f##k the barstewards”

I thought the Beavis case related to the amount of the ‘charge’ (ie that it was reasonable)? Without ploughing through a whole judgement, does it really suggest you can form a contract when one of the parties is not present and has no knowledge of it? 😯

Yep.

I’ve in the past advised people (in my family / friends) how to get off from Parking Eye et al charges, on the basis of unfair contract terms. However, it has very much been on a technicality and the judgement above has now ruled that that technicality is basically wrong. In other words that the £85, or £100, or £50 or whatever it is, is essentially reasonable as an inducement that you shouldn’t break the rules by overstaying or parking there when you don’t have the right, etc., or a penalty when you do.

So now my opinion is that you know the rules……. so can’t so the time, don’t do the crime.

@1981 the Beavis ruling was only late November. They’ve been holding off chasing people until the ruling. Ignore tickets now at your own risk but given that they now know the county courts will generally enforce the charge they are far more likely to come for you.

@MH – I don’t know. However it seems a pretty easy get out just to say ‘I wasn’t driving’. If they’ve gone to the expense of fighting Beavis surely they have this nailed down as well otherwise everyone would use it.

I think the whole thing is an abuse of contract law but I’m pretty sure that as the owner of the car you are ultimately responsible for any fines, charges etc and that the contract is made with you.

@ martinhutch

That’s a different matter, if you can show that parking notices and clear messages about who can park there/how long for/what happens if you break those rules aren’t present / adequate then you can argue on that point. But if they are present and you ‘ignore’ them – at your peril.

In the ruling, 6 judges voted that charges were ok and reasonable for the purposes of providing an inducement not to overstay, etc., and (importantly) that the company administering are entitled to make a profit by legitimately administering the scheme under the rules of the British Parking Association (or whoever they are); one argued that they were excessive on the basis that if the driver and the parking co met to negotiate a parking charge on a level basis then they wouldn’t agree on that level. Nonetheless point was made that plenty of ‘reasonable motorists’ do agree that the charge is within acceptable because basically plenty of reasonable motorists have agreed in the past to pay it (you can argue that they felt bullied / threatened by debt collection agencies to that point, but that’s not the point being made)

Hence on a 6:1 basis – the Parking Companies now have the stronger hand, so as above – if you don’t like the rules then don’t park there.

[edit] and I suspect there’s a big backlog that they will gleefully be working through in the coming months.

I think the whole thing is an abuse of contract law but I’m pretty sure that as the owner of the car you are ultimately responsible for any fines, charges etc and that the contract is made with you.

You would be in terms of police and council enforcement, but I’m surprised that extends into civil contracts. I’m sure a private parking company could claim they have entered into a contract with a vehicle owner even in his/her absence, I’d be interested to know if that kind of tenuous contract forming has ever been tested at a decent level.

Why is your au pair not paying this? It’s his problem to deal with. Just forward the correspondence to him and advise the parking Cowboys to deal with him direct?

I think the whole thing is an abuse of contract law but I’m pretty sure that as the owner of the car you are ultimately responsible for any fines, charges etc and that the contract is made with you.

Don’t agree.

Would a hire company accept liability for parking fines you incurred? No they wouldn’t.

If the OP has told them who parked there, then surely they should pursue that person?

Anyhow I have been in touch with UKPS and they say that they cannot transfer liability as the driver does not reside in England or Wales and I the owner/registered keeper of the vehicle are now liable for the fine?

OP has tried that route (see above) and been fed some pseudo-official bullshit (see above).

Due to a change in the law, the ironically titled “Protections of Freedoms Act 2012” means that the vehicle reg keeper, rather than the driver, can in some circumstances be held responsible for parking contract tickets. So ignoring is no longer always the best course of action.

The act does not apply in Scotland where only the driver can be pursued. So getting advice from Pepipoo or elsewhere is the next step.

A read at this blog would be worthwhile.

http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/

strange how the courts say youre liable for parking over a set time on sombody elses property and need to pay a charge, yet some still dont understand the concept.

Refuse to pay the fine, and theyll send round the bailiffs/ civil enforcement officers, and theyre not so easy to deal with and have even higher charges and many skills they can use to seize tour property.

If in doubt about parking on someone elses land dont park there just walk in

The really annoying thing about the ruling is that the judges stated that is Beavis hadn’t represented himself and had a decent legal team the ruling may well have been different as he wasn’t very good at legal argument against parkingeye’s numerous and expensive lawyers.

Now, thanks to this **** one man crusade he’s **** it right up for all of us. As it’s a supreme Court ruling there are now no appeal does open.

What a ****…

@pdf – that will be covered in the hire agreement. Did the op have a similar contract in place with their au pair? Thought not…

That loophole was closed at about the same time as clamping was outlawed, as it was recognised that simply saying ‘I don’t know who was driving’ was too easy a get-out

From the government website:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/9155/guidance-unpaid-parking-charges.pdf

9.1 Where a landholder does not know the name and address of the driver,
they can ask the DVLA for details of the registered keeper in order to
write to him or her. DVLA decide whether to release data under
reasonable cause provisions (for more information on this see
http://www.dft.gov.uk/dvla/data.aspx).
9.2 Where DVLA provide details of the registered keeper to the landholder,
he or she may write to the registered keeper for payment or the driver’s
details so that the landholder can pursue the unpaid parking charge. If
the driver’s details are provided by the registered keeper, then the
landholder must pursue the driver for the unpaid parking charge, and the
registered keeper cannot be liable for the charge.
9.3 The registered keeper has 28 days after receiving a notice from the
landholder in which to provide the driver’s details, pay the parking
charge, or appeal against the ticket. If the registered keeper fails to do
any of these things the landholder may begin proceedings to recover the
parking charge from the registered keeper (see Q1 FAQ).

Keeper liability

Proper lol at the ‘Protection of Freedoms Act. OP seems to have discharged his reponsibilities under it, though.

So 9.2 surely applies here

Anyhow I have been in touch with UKPS and they say that they cannot transfer liability as the driver does not reside in England or Wales and I the owner/registered keeper of the vehicle are now liable for the fine?

They are telling porkies as cited above.

I did send them the transfer of liability slip by mail but they claim not to have recd it. I then emailed them with he details and they responded with its my responsibility etc.

The au pair has been tryin to contact them but its near to impossible to get a hold of them. He has a copy of the letter and ive reiterated that he had 28bdays to pay the fine etc etc. He hasnt explicitly said he’d pay it in the recent communication but did ask how he could pay the fine. Lets see how it transpires.