to be fair, I did follow that up and say muppet was a poor choice of word and take it back but that I agree with the sentiment i.e I can’t understand why someone would willingly volunteer to go over there to kill people they have no quarrel with.

Let’s agree to disagree.

Let’s agree to disagree

Yup, after all that is free speech, something that our grandfathers generation fought for and something they might have in Afghanistan soon.

Yer Granddaddy was defending his way of life.

We’re over there destroying their homes and imposing our way of life on them.

Apart from that, it’s the same 😆

Actually, hate to ruin a good story and all that, but here in the UK we don’t have free speech, that’s the US. But anyway, we get your point.

I have a Military Medal in the family, and one poor chap buried with two others in the same grave (busy day for the field hospital that day).

I do see why lads and lasses join up to serve our country, I sorely wished I had when I had the chance. And I have always suggested it to my children as a possible career. But I won’t support the use of our armed forces in illegal or questionable operations.

everything is questionable

this thread proves that

everything is questionable

Perhaps by some lone figure yes. But I don’t think our retaking of the Falklands was questionable. I don’t think the original Gulf War was questionable. I support actions in support of NATO or the UN where they are legal and we aren’t bearing a disproportionate load.

We’re over there destroying their homes and imposing our way of life on them

Destroying some houses yes, but then they get compensation to rebuild if we are at fault and most definatly not the latter. It is their country and we are supporting them trying to run/build/re-build it it. Cultural awareness is very important and respecting it and their rights even more so.

higthepig

1st and 3rd post HERE HERE!

Destroying some houses yes, but then they get compensation to rebuild if we are at fault and most definatly not the latter. It is their country and we are supporting them trying to run/build/re-build it it. Cultural awareness is very important and respecting it and their rights even more so.

How do you compensate someone for the loss of a family member, if you are at fault? How much money?

Your commitment is laudable. I don’t think you have really grasped why you are there. It is nothing to do with liberation, whatever you may have been told.

Just watched second part, I didn’t think it as good as the first, missus thought is way better (though she did admit that might be because the lads were fitter and better looking in part 2!).

Still, very good.

How do you compensate someone for the loss of a family member, if you are at fault? How much money?

The level of compensation is based in their position in the family, males in their society are “more” valuable than females, and hence more will be paid if a male is killed/injured. Payments are negotiated with the family, village elders and mullahs etc. It is nothing like the amount you would receive for a similar incident in the West, however as the average daily wage is around $1-2 a day if you are lucky, it is quite substantial. There is never any intent to harm the locals, great measures are put in place to make this so. The UN released a press statement earlier this month stating that insurgents were responsible for 82% of civilian fatalities in May, some 301 people, this is not normally reported in our media. All is normally reported is NATO casualties and significant events involving locals, the more “mundane” farmer working in a field and getting killed will not be reported but has significant impact on the family. If we had objective and comprehensive reporting, perhaps there would be more clarity and less supposition.

Your commitment is laudable. I don’t think you have really grasped why you are there. It is nothing to do with liberation, whatever you may have been told.

I have been there numerous times over the last few years and can see significant progress and betterment for the locals. Thank you for telling me that I have not grasped why I am there. I thought only my wife knew what I was thinking and what I know, appears I am so transparent that others can do the same. Despite what you summise, I fully understand why we are there and would suggest that you may not have enough information to make an informed decision.

I fully understand why we are there and would suggest that you may not have enough information to make an informed decision.

bullshit, if you did you wouldn’t defend it. Justify being America’s lackey, justify supporting the US foreign policy objectives when they clearly benefit the US over and above all others. Justify the non intervention in other regions and countries in the context of involvement in afghanistan and iraq.

bullshit, if you did you wouldn’t defend it. Justify being America’s lackey, justify supporting the US foreign policy objectives when they clearly benefit the US over and above all others. Justify the non intervention in other regions and countries in the context of involvement in afghanistan and iraq.

I haven’t defended it, just tried to explain the other side of the story that you have not commented on. The military does not set foreign policy, which is the job of the government, something that all entitled residents in the UK vote for. You can blame the military but it is the population of the UK who bothered to vote, and more importantly those don’t bother to vote who are responsible for the government we have and their foreign policy.

I don’t have to justify why we are there, it is up to you to question your MP and/or the government depending on what party your MP belongs too.
Perhaps the link below might be a reason for the intervention in Afghanistan?
London Bombings

Here is another issue you can accuse the military of starting:
Libyia

I don’t have to justify why we are there

Really? You don’t have to justify your presence in someone elses country?

Ah, I see it’s my fault for voting it, but not yours for actually doing it?

Have a good read back through this thread. A proper read. See if you can note down when the military have been blamed for this conflict and by whom. Report back when you’re done. Here’s a pointer for you

yossarian – Member
its a difficult one isn’t it?
on the one hand its hard not feel a good deal of pride and support for what the armed forces have to do and the effects that it has on them
BUT
the context of their service has to be taken into account. this is not a great crusade, it is not the free world fighting back against the forces of darkness, it is not noble or just or proportionate. I feel extremely angry that men and women from my country are fighting, killing and dying in a pointless war that has been created to further western interests and to protect the interests of the few over the needs of the many.
It is utterly wrong and as ever its the common folks on both sides who bleed and whose families mourn.
POSTED 1 WEEK AGO #

Really? You don’t have to justify your presence in someone elses country?

Ah, I see it’s my fault for voting it, but not yours for actually doing it?

Have a good read back through this thread. A proper read. See if you can note down when the military have been blamed for this conflict and by whom. Report back when you’re done.

No I don’t have to justify it, I’ll let more erudite people do that, try the link below:
Ministry of Defence[

Again I would say that it is up to the elected government to justify to the population, not the military who are servants of the crown and will do what the crown decides, providing it is a legal and lawful order.

Have a good read back through this thread. A proper read. See if you can note down when the military have been blamed for this conflict and by whom. Report back when you’re done. Here’s a pointer for you

bullshit, if you did you wouldn’t defend it. Justify being America’s lackey, justify supporting the US foreign policy objectives when they clearly benefit the US over and above all others.

I think being called America’s Lackey is a starter for ten, thinking the UK military sit in their back pocket and bow to the US foreign policy is quite an offensive thing to accuse us of.

I have read the thread thoroughly and believe that there has been massive thread creep from the original intention of the OP, all I have been doing has been offering the other-side of the story.

You can print off what I have written, put it in your pipe and smoke it for I care. At least others readers of the thread may have been entertained and understand that we are not all Dogs of War waiting for Uncle Sam to tell where we are off next.

Really? You don’t have to justify your presence in someone elses country?

Ah, I see it’s my fault for voting it, but not yours for actually doing it?
Sorry Yossarian, he’s 100% correct. He does what he’s told to by politicians. Politicians are elected by and work for us.

Sorry Yossarian, he’s 100% correct. He does what he’s told to by politicians. Politicians are elected by and work for us.

Right firstly we need to differentiate between elected politicians and civil servants. Corporations lobby government, government protects their interests. The status quo is maintained, the corporations make f:ck loads of cash, governments get funded and supported.

Secondly, do the military not get to vote? I fully understand he is doing the bidding of others, fighting for someone else. I get that. What I don’t get is how none of it is his responsibility. That sounds like a cop out to me. Certainly the refusal to acknowledge any personal responsibility is odd. I understand the loyalty to your colleagues and your regiment is probably going to over ride other considerations, but to dismiss them entirely is odd.

I think being called America’s Lackey is a starter for ten, thinking the UK military sit in their back pocket and bow to the US foreign policy is quite an offensive thing to accuse us of.

I agree and if you can prove to me that I’m wrong I will gladly take it back. As I’ve said previously along with others, I don’t want British servicemen and women fighting and dying in a war that isn’t necessary. I go back to my original comment to you, higthepig, I don’t think you have grasped the reason we’re out there. It certainly isn’t for humanitarian reasons.

What I don’t get is how none of it is his responsibility.

Never stated it was none of my reponsibilty, although I did not vote as my ballot paper was lost for the General Election, mine and quite a few others ballot papers failed to make it back to the UK in time. Therefore as I did not cast a vote, it is all my fault and I am to blame, does that make you feel better?

I go back to my original comment to you, higthepig, I don’t think you have grasped the reason we’re out there. It certainly isn’t for humanitarian reasons.

I have a very good understanding why we are out there, being deployed concentrates the mind and you do think about it, I would contend that I have thought about more than you have. The first thing we went out there was not for humanitarian reasons I agree, however things are changing and if you do a little research into Counter-Insurgency, perhaps you might understand where I am coming from and what we are doing out there now.

Therefore as I did not cast a vote, it is all my fault and I am to blame, does that make you feel better?

Not really. It was you who started the whole blame thing.

The first thing we went out there was not for humanitarian reasons I agree, however things are changing and if you do a little research into Counter-Insurgency, perhaps you might understand where I am coming from and what we are doing out there now.

The trouble is that once we deployed we were committed to making it look successful. The reason we are still deployed is because it doesn’t look that successful.

Where next? Pakistan? No? Why not? Where then? Anywhere you’re told to go? For any reason?

Anywhere you’re told to go? For any reason?

That is exactly what the military is supposed to do. They can’t pick and choose their conflicts, they go where they are told.

They can’t pick and choose their conflicts

I think this is a fundamental point and something i’d like to see change, how you’d work it dunno, that’s open for discussion. But it seems all too easy to send the army to war on a whim, afghanistan certainly was, (the mission may well have changed due to governments inheriting the war(personally I doubt that it’s just developed into a PR war and they’ll withdraw as soon as they can save face), but afghanistan was a bloodlust reaction to 9/11, it should have never have happened.) Iraq was also started for the flimsiest of reasons, and imo went ahead vastly against public opinion.

Our politicians clearly can’t be trusted.

The system is broken and imo therefore everyone has a duty to say so until things change. And those in the army really should bear more responsibilty as they are the ones doing the bidding, and there is such a thing as conscientious objection(If enough objected they couldn’t jail them all.). So therefore while they blindly do the bidding imo those in the army are as culpable as the government.

Btw regarding insurgents killing 81% of civilians, that wouldn’t be happening if not for the invasion, it’s a direct result of western action

Some of us may not like the proposed reforms/sell offs to the NHS, but we don’t demand those public sector workers down tools or expect them to take responsibility above and beyond voting, just because they are at the sharp end implementing the changes, getting on with their job, doing what they are trained to do.

Some of us may not like the proposed reforms/sell offs to the NHS, but we don’t demand those public sector workers down tools or expect them to take responsibility above and beyond voting, just because they are at the sharp end implementing the changes, getting on with their job, doing what they are trained to do

Lots of public sector workers do take action and down tools etc, it’s called strike action..But regardless it’s a vastly different thing from the army.

And I don’t know about you, but i’d like to think NHS workers would be up in arms if ever there was a danger of it getting taken from us.

Why is it different, apart from the Forces not being even able to strike? We don’t demand NHS workers strike do we? Nor hold them accountable if a reform is not to our liking?

Why is it different

because of the death tolls involved, whether directly or indirectly.

because of the death tolls involved, whether directly or indirectly.

If only we could get our military to kill as many as the NHS do.

Joke. My partner works for the NHS, and the front line medical staff are superb. It’s all the admin that are generally shite.

My Wife and many like her form part of the front line staff on the wards, effectively working for the NHS, when not in Foreign Fields.

I take your point but we are still talking about public employees. Where do we draw the line regarding the number of deaths in deciding the military to be held responsible particularly with hindsight being a wonderful thing?

TuckerUK – Member
…But I don’t think our retaking of the Falklands was questionable. I don’t think the original Gulf War was questionable. I support actions in support of NATO or the UN where they are legal and we aren’t bearing a disproportionate load

so are you saying that the mission in afghan is neither UN mandated nor NATO led?

This article gives a few insights into the clusterf*** that the war in Afghanistan is/was/will be:

Afghan war lost who is to blame?

‘Among many sad anecdotes, he notes that 27% of British helicopter flights in Helmand carried (mainly military) VIPs, while politicians were being denounced for under-equipping the forces. The RAF spent £70m widening taxiways in Kandahar so it could fly Tornado jets for which there was no call beyond the spurious claim they might cheer up the British squaddies they overflew. Or the tale of the commander who joked that injuries would work wonders for Britain’s Paralympic team in 2012. Cowper-Coles restates the claim that troops were sent to Afghanistan in a bid to “use them, or lose them” to Treasury cuts.’

I think being called America’s Lackey is a starter for ten, thinking the UK military sit in their back pocket and bow to the US foreign policy is quite an offensive thing to accuse us of.

‘On his first day on the job as Her Majesty’s ambassador to Kabul in 2007, Sherard Cowper-Coles told the mission’s top SIS (MI6) officer that his priority would be to develop a good relationship with President Hamid Karzai. The gruff northern spy quickly puts him right. “Oh no it won’t,” he says. “Your key relationship will be with the American ambassador. He matters most to us”‘

Cables from Kabul

In my opinion the military have to take their share of the blame. At the end of the day it’s the soldiers on the ground that are the basic instruments of war and the ones who suffer on all counts. It’s not a situation I’d put myself in and find it incredible that people do.

so are you saying that the mission in afghan is neither UN mandated nor NATO led?

We’re supporting the US, and as we all know the US is now (since 2002) an outlaw country who refuses to accept the authority of the UN World Court and their conviction by it. How can it be legal for us to be helping an outlaw country?

We allow ourselves to be dry bummed by the US to ensure our place at their feet.

Makes me proud

The only thing I’m proud of is our armed forces. Hats off to all the guys and gals doing their bit. You are in our thoughts always