[Closed] Our War BBC Three now

In your head and others like you, i'm more than comfortable living with that. I mean ffs anyone here understand the word propaganda at all, listen to yourselves.

You seem to have a very clear view of what motivates them.

what planet are you on? I don't see many firemen, polis or paramedics going into combat in foriegn lands.

Maybe you should take your head out of your a*se then, ever heard of the territorial army? lots serving in Afghan, many come from the emergency services. Idiot.

Interesting programme.
The guys and girls are there to do a job, they don't have a choice as to where they are sent. Is it something that will get sorted I doubt it very much. The problem has been there for years. War will always be political. But we have to be thankful to those guys who do join the army to defend this country. They have a choice in previous wars you didn't have that. So we are luckier now.
The worst place to live must be Wootten Bassett.
The programme is good as it shows us what happens when they are at war, their fears, sadness, being homesick and comradeship.

They are children and grown men playing cowboys and indians.

Do you know anyone who's served? Your son? Friends? Family?
You seem to have a very clear view of what motivates them.

Maybe you should take your head out of your a*se then, ever heard of the territorial army? lots serving in Afghan, many come from the emergency services. Idiot

Other civilians go and work alongside the Regular forces and TA. Family/troop liason and medical staff, for example.

Other civilians go and work alongside the Regular forces and TA. Family/troop liason and medical staff, for example

It's a job, call war, job creation if you will.

I love the smell of napalm in the morning, especially when it's dropped on an Afghan village in the name of western ideology, it smells of victory.

Muppets is a poor choice of word but I kind of agree with the sentiment. A lot of these lads are economic recruits who are trying to make something of their lives. Unfortunately, I don't think it is particularly admirable to do that at the expense of the lives of others in a far-off land.

Not to mention the BILLIONS that have been spent laying waste to Iraq, Afghanistan and now Libya when people in this country struggle to get on the housing ladder, will need to work to 70 then subsist on a poverty-level pension, will struggle to fund their kids' higher education and we're all being told we need to suck it up and take the shafting because the country is broke.

If the aftercare is so great then what is 'Help for Heroes' all about then?

Army housing would be condemned in any other walk of life.

a lot of the attitudes on this thread are very much like Dubya's "you're either with us, or you're with the terrorists".

what gets me is they seem quite happy until one of their mates die.

From what I've got they've killed lots of Taliban/Afgans but it does seem to register until one of their mates get killed.

Im not having a go at them for that, they would nt be very good soliders if they got all teary everytime they killed a man. But I'd expect them to have more respect for their enemy and their lives too.

Both weeks it has surprised me that they dont seem to realise how serious the situation until one of their mates dies.

I would expect them to be pretty sober or at least have some thought about the killing they are doing too. I could be wrong but I'd guess alot of the taliban are just young afganistany lads who basically dont have any work and have to sign up to get money same as the british lads.

I mean they were all getting worked up about the guy who died in the first week and seemed very surprised it had happened . But they said they'd just laid down 5 guys in the same confrontation, I'd be more surprised considering the number of taliban/afgans they were killing only one of them had got killed.

Maybe they are thinking things like this in their head but I suppose you cant say it to your fellow soliders as it would erode group moral.

Struggle with house ownership? higher education?
Do you feel that these are entitlements?

I think you will find a lot are just Afghans trying to rid their country of foriegn invaders, similiar to Iraq in that regard.

backhander - Member
Struggle with house ownership? higher education?
Do you feel that these are entitlements?

What does that have to do with the armed forces?

read the f***ing thread.

Libya when people in this country struggle to get on the housing ladder, will need to work to 70 then subsist on a poverty-level pension, will struggle to fund their kids' higher education

I think you will find a lot are just Afghans trying to rid their country of foriegn invaders, similiar to Iraq in that regard.

This.

Struggle with house ownership? higher education?
Do you feel that these are entitlements?

Yes, you owe a LOT of oxygen.

backhander - Member
read the f***ing thread.

Apologies.

Higher education should be free.
House ownership not an entitlement.

Yes, you owe a LOT of oxygen.

No, house ownership is not an entitlement. Alternatives? a nice council house on a nice estate? where?

Education should not be the preserve of the wealthy.

Working and middle class kids will come out of uni burdened with crippling debt. How do they fund a mortgage and a pension and service their education debt on graduate pay? (If they can find a job in the first place).

But the government can fund the destruction of these other countries at the drop of a hat and then private companies will make a 'killing' in reconstruction contracts and new 'opportunities' under sympathetic governments? But it's ok, cos these companies will be ploughing millions back into the exchequer in tax revenues won't they? oh, wait...

Rule Britannia indeed

How the hell did the [b]personal experienced of serving soldiers[/b] end up as about mortgages and schools?

I'd volunteer that the homeless, mistreated/abused and mentally ill are more deserving of help than average ability middle class kids with illusions of grandeur wanting a foot up or middle class adults wanting a house on a plate personally.

didn't say they aren't more deserving.

middle class kids with illusions of grandeur? house on a plate?

how about kids wanting to enter a profession where a degree is a pre-requisite?

house on a plate? lol!

you're deliberately missing the point I was trying to make.

They don't even have proper kit, hardly get phone calls home - family need to pay to send parcels out to them.

Really, anyone going over there is a bit of a muppet

My kit is good, I got free phone calls home, my family didn't pay to send me parcels. I'm a muppet, thanks for that, and you are?

From what I've got they've killed lots of Taliban/Afgans but it does seem to register until one of their mates get killed

It does register, but not in the tear jerking hand wringing way you seem to expect. There is grudging respect at what the insurgents do and the way they do it, however you live/work/play with you mates and that is why they show emotion. Imagine a close member of you family dying, or some bloke you bump into occasionally in the pub dying, how would you react?

I think you will find a lot are just Afghans trying to rid their country of foriegn invaders, similiar to Iraq in that regard.

The majority of Afghans do not give a stuff about foriegn forces in their country, they are too busy trying to survive from day to day. Over 45% of the population is under 15 years of age, life expectancy is in the low 50s, infant mortality is huge. There are so many pressing issues for them like simple medical care/clean water, that the "baying dogs of war" are addressing. It is not all about killing, it is also making Afghans life better for them by removing opression and introduction things that we in the West don't even give a second thought about.

If only governments monitored this forum, all the worlds problems would be solved with experts we have here.

to be fair, I did follow that up and say muppet was a poor choice of word and take it back but that I agree with the sentiment i.e I can't understand why someone would willingly volunteer to go over there to kill people they have no quarrel with.

Let's agree to disagree.

Let's agree to disagree

Yup, after all that is free speech, something that our grandfathers generation fought for and something they might have in Afghanistan soon.

Yer Granddaddy was defending his way of life.

We're over there destroying their homes and imposing our way of life on them.

Apart from that, it's the same 😆

Actually, hate to ruin a good story and all that, but here in the UK we don't have free speech, that's the US. But anyway, we get your point.

I have a Military Medal in the family, and one poor chap buried with two others in the same grave (busy day for the field hospital that day).

I do see why lads and lasses join up to serve our country, I sorely wished I had when I had the chance. And I have always suggested it to my children as a possible career. But I won't support the use of our armed forces in illegal or questionable operations.

everything is questionable

this thread proves that

everything is questionable

Perhaps by some lone figure yes. But I don't think our retaking of the Falklands was questionable. I don't think the original Gulf War was questionable. I support actions in support of NATO or the UN where they are legal and we aren't bearing a disproportionate load.

We're over there destroying their homes and imposing our way of life on them

Destroying some houses yes, but then they get compensation to rebuild if we are at fault and most definatly not the latter. It is their country and we are supporting them trying to run/build/re-build it it. Cultural awareness is very important and respecting it and their rights even more so.

higthepig

1st and 3rd post HERE HERE!

Destroying some houses yes, but then they get compensation to rebuild if we are at fault and most definatly not the latter. It is their country and we are supporting them trying to run/build/re-build it it. Cultural awareness is very important and respecting it and their rights even more so.

How do you compensate someone for the loss of a family member, if you are at fault? How much money?

Your commitment is laudable. I don't think you have really grasped why you are there. It is nothing to do with liberation, whatever you may have been told.

Just watched second part, I didn't think it as good as the first, missus thought is way better (though she did admit that might be because the lads were fitter and better looking in part 2!).

Still, very good.

How do you compensate someone for the loss of a family member, if you are at fault? How much money?

The level of compensation is based in their position in the family, males in their society are "more" valuable than females, and hence more will be paid if a male is killed/injured. Payments are negotiated with the family, village elders and mullahs etc. It is nothing like the amount you would receive for a similar incident in the West, however as the average daily wage is around $1-2 a day if you are lucky, it is quite substantial. There is never any intent to harm the locals, great measures are put in place to make this so. The UN released a press statement earlier this month stating that insurgents were responsible for 82% of civilian fatalities in May, some 301 people, this is not normally reported in our media. All is normally reported is NATO casualties and significant events involving locals, the more "mundane" farmer working in a field and getting killed will not be reported but has significant impact on the family. If we had objective and comprehensive reporting, perhaps there would be more clarity and less supposition.

Your commitment is laudable. I don't think you have really grasped why you are there. It is nothing to do with liberation, whatever you may have been told.

I have been there numerous times over the last few years and can see significant progress and betterment for the locals. Thank you for telling me that I have not grasped why I am there. I thought only my wife knew what I was thinking and what I know, appears I am so transparent that others can do the same. Despite what you summise, I fully understand why we are there and would suggest that you may not have enough information to make an informed decision.

I fully understand why we are there and would suggest that you may not have enough information to make an informed decision.

bullshit, if you did you wouldn't defend it. Justify being America's lackey, justify supporting the US foreign policy objectives when they clearly benefit the US over and above all others. Justify the non intervention in other regions and countries in the context of involvement in afghanistan and iraq.

bullshit, if you did you wouldn't defend it. Justify being America's lackey, justify supporting the US foreign policy objectives when they clearly benefit the US over and above all others. Justify the non intervention in other regions and countries in the context of involvement in afghanistan and iraq.

I don't have to justify why we are there, it is up to you to question your MP and/or the government depending on what party your MP belongs too.
Perhaps the link below might be a reason for the intervention in Afghanistan?
[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7_July_2005_London_bombings ]London Bombings[/url]

Here is another issue you can accuse the military of starting:
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-12799937 ]Libyia[/url]

I don't have to justify why we are there

Really? You don't have to justify your presence in someone elses country?

Ah, I see it's my fault for voting it, but not yours for actually doing it?

Have a good read back through this thread. A proper read. See if you can note down when the military have been blamed for this conflict and by whom. Report back when you're done. Here's a pointer for you

yossarian - Member
its a difficult one isn't it?
on the one hand its hard not feel a good deal of pride and support for what the armed forces have to do and the effects that it has on them
BUT
the context of their service has to be taken into account. this is not a great crusade, it is not the free world fighting back against the forces of darkness, it is not noble or just or proportionate. I feel extremely angry that men and women from my country are fighting, killing and dying in a pointless war that has been created to further western interests and to protect the interests of the few over the needs of the many.
It is utterly wrong and as ever its the common folks on both sides who bleed and whose families mourn.
POSTED 1 WEEK AGO #

Really? You don't have to justify your presence in someone elses country?

Ah, I see it's my fault for voting it, but not yours for actually doing it?

Have a good read back through this thread. A proper read. See if you can note down when the military have been blamed for this conflict and by whom. Report back when you're done.

No I don't have to justify it, I'll let more erudite people do that, try the link below:
[url= http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/Home/ ]Ministry of Defence[/url][

Again I would say that it is up to the elected government to justify to the population, not the military who are servants of the crown and will do what the crown decides, providing it is a legal and lawful order.

Have a good read back through this thread. A proper read. See if you can note down when the military have been blamed for this conflict and by whom. Report back when you're done. Here's a pointer for you

bullshit, if you did you wouldn't defend it. Justify being America's lackey, justify supporting the US foreign policy objectives when they clearly benefit the US over and above all others.

I think being called America’s Lackey is a starter for ten, thinking the UK military sit in their back pocket and bow to the US foreign policy is quite an offensive thing to accuse us of.

I have read the thread thoroughly and believe that there has been massive thread creep from the original intention of the OP, all I have been doing has been offering the other-side of the story.

You can print off what I have written, put it in your pipe and smoke it for I care. At least others readers of the thread may have been entertained and understand that we are not all Dogs of War waiting for Uncle Sam to tell where we are off next.

Really? You don't have to justify your presence in someone elses country?

Ah, I see it's my fault for voting it, but not yours for actually doing it?

Sorry Yossarian, he's 100% correct. He does what he's told to by politicians. Politicians are elected by and work for us.

Right firstly we need to differentiate between elected politicians and civil servants. Corporations lobby government, government protects their interests. The status quo is maintained, the corporations make f:ck loads of cash, governments get funded and supported.

Secondly, do the military not get to vote? I fully understand he is doing the bidding of others, fighting for someone else. I get that. What I don't get is how none of it is his responsibility. That sounds like a cop out to me. Certainly the refusal to acknowledge any personal responsibility is odd. I understand the loyalty to your colleagues and your regiment is probably going to over ride other considerations, but to dismiss them entirely is odd.

I think being called America’s Lackey is a starter for ten, thinking the UK military sit in their back pocket and bow to the US foreign policy is quite an offensive thing to accuse us of.

I agree and if you can prove to me that I'm wrong I will gladly take it back. As I've said previously along with others, I don't want British servicemen and women fighting and dying in a war that isn't necessary. I go back to my original comment to you, higthepig, I don't think you have grasped the reason we're out there. It certainly isn't for humanitarian reasons.

What I don't get is how none of it is his responsibility.

Never stated it was none of my reponsibilty, although I did not vote as my ballot paper was lost for the General Election, mine and quite a few others ballot papers failed to make it back to the UK in time. Therefore as I did not cast a vote, it is all my fault and I am to blame, does that make you feel better?

I go back to my original comment to you, higthepig, I don't think you have grasped the reason we're out there. It certainly isn't for humanitarian reasons.

I have a very good understanding why we are out there, being deployed concentrates the mind and you do think about it, I would contend that I have thought about more than you have. The first thing we went out there was not for humanitarian reasons I agree, however things are changing and if you do a little research into Counter-Insurgency, perhaps you might understand where I am coming from and what we are doing out there now.

Therefore as I did not cast a vote, it is all my fault and I am to blame, does that make you feel better?

Not really. It was you who started the whole blame thing.

The first thing we went out there was not for humanitarian reasons I agree, however things are changing and if you do a little research into Counter-Insurgency, perhaps you might understand where I am coming from and what we are doing out there now.

The trouble is that once we deployed we were committed to making it [b]look[/b] successful. The reason we are still deployed is because it doesn't look [b]that[/b] successful.

Where next? ****stan? No? Why not? Where then? Anywhere you're told to go? For any reason?

Anywhere you're told to go? For any reason?