Yes only th egreens think that nuclear waste is dangerous…Pfft

It’s the huge amount of stuff they’ve successfully lobbied to get classified as nuclear waste that’s the problem.

At present, if the UK government acts in a way that’s detrimental to Scotland, there’s not much the Scottish voter can do about it. After independence, if we don’t like what the government is doing, we can just elect a new one.

I’m afraid not, which is why this isn’t actually a vote about independence.

Even if the legendary negotiating skills of AS do create a currency union, that’s an economic straitjacket for Scotland which would remove many policy levers from the Holyrood Government. Don’t like what it is doing? Tough – the terms of the currency union would prevail no matter the party in government.

The EU opt outs which UK has are unlikely to continue for Scotland so the EU would have more impact than at present.

That’s why this is a crap proposal. It isn’t independence. Its a difference shape of interdependencies which may or may not work but certainly don’t count as a repatriation of all sovereignty to Holyrood.

So the democratic position. Is equivalent to England’s…..

Bizarrely, Scotland gets the party it voted for more often than England, but that is a separate story
thanks for clearing up the fluff there and giving us a spin free account

very helpful and clear

THANKS

A/ a currency union would place no more restraints on the Scottish Government than it currently has.

B/ no nation is fully independent as long as it has treaties and agreements with other nations… and creditors.

It isn’t independence. Its a difference shape of interdependencies which may or may not work but certainly don’t count as a repatriation of all sovereignty to Holyrood

I do agree but no country can completely repatriate everything where it signs treaties – but yes he is selling a weird hybrid that is neither devolution nor independence.

As for the EU who knows what iS will get tbh they may get better – it is unlikely but we do not know- as the EU may bend over backwards to not lose a country, we just do not know.

I would imagine that the same as the UK or the same as the other EU countries are both about the same odds were I a betting man.

@Athgray I looked at the various parties websites Labour says they plan to restore the 50p tax rate, but that dosnt itself help poor or vulnerable people, Labour also said they plan to stick to Osbournes spending plan. Couldnt find any thing about raising taxes on the Conservative party site. Then again IDS is driving a campaign of welfare cuts which disproportionately affect the most vulnerable. Libs said they believe in progressive taxation but I didnt see any detail or policy that said they would increase the top rate of tax.Ukip well firefox didnt find their site but the BBC said “Ukip is currently rethinking tax policy”
You may have heard of thecommonweal,allofusfirst
The real debate about independence is to try to change a broken political system for one which the ordinary person feels involves them and belongs to them rather than the current one which appears separated from swathes of ordinary people and is perceived as belonging to an elite. Struggling to get by on £120,000 per year anyone?An increase to £20,000 would be a substantial pay rise for me.
edit

A/ a currency union would place no more restraints on the Scottish Government than it currently has.

You sure? If Scotland is to be richer and fairer as promised, then it is going to diverge more from the rUK than it does at present. So the impact of CU would be greater in that the terms of the CU would prevent it moving too far from rUK (otherwise the CU would fail). With no MPs and only an observer role on the MPC, there’s less influence on policy being proposed.

B/ no nation is fully independent as long as it has treaties and agreements with other nations… and creditors.

Correct. Which is why claims along the lines of “if they’re mistakes, at least they’re our mistakes” or “if we don’t like the government, we can change it” are optimistic about the amount of control which can be exercised.

As I’ve said before, I’m not opposed to independence in principle. I’m just opposed to the current vision of it.

As my post is too old to edit I assume the “facts” come from here

http://www.aforceforgood.org.uk/debunk/vote1

to get the same count [ the one you think is both equal and worse ] for england as scotland you have to
1. Count an equal vote [ but more lab MPs as a loss] – 1950. I doubt the exact vote was identical to the last vote so I further assume that percentages are given to ” massage” the figure but labour actually got most votes [ Assumption if it was the reverse the website would have mentioned it] but i am not certain to be clear.
2. Count the coalition as a loss for both – even though the combined vote is a majority of votes cast in england never mind seats when in Scotland it is neither. I woudl call that spin and bluster and you a lot worse if As did it.
3. Count % of votes cast rather than MP’s in the country. See point above
4. Assume that a 0.2 % difference [ but more MP’s] in England is the same as 30 % less in Scotland with fewer MP’s. See point above.

Can i thanks you once more for your fluff free post free of spin and deceit

This “debate” would work better if you just put the facts up and let folks decide what they mean IMHO.

Correct. Which is why claims along the lines of “if they’re mistakes, at least they’re our mistakes” or “if we don’t like the government, we can change it” are optimistic about the amount of control which can be exercised.

You are correct but it would be better if they went at least if we dont like it we can leave ….again 😉

While we are doing nukes…

http://news.stv.tv/scotland-decides/news/288174-relocating-trident-not-impossible-says-rusi-military-think-tank/

Moving the UK’s nuclear deterrent out of an independent Scotland is not impossible and would probably cost far less than the tens of billions of pounds previously predicted, experts have suggested.

Relocating Trident in the event of Scottish independence would be feasible, although it could take more than a decade and spark significant local opposition, a new paper from the Royal United Services Institute (Rusi) military think tank has found.

But the paper, published on Friday suggests that recreating the nuclear facilities outside Scotland would add between £2.5bn and £3.5bn to the cost of the UK maintaining a nuclear-armed fleet, plus the cost of acquiring and clearing land — but would be far less than a previously predicted £20bn to £25bn.

There may or may not be reasons to vote yes, Trident isn’t one of them.

You missed out the two big reasons – we’d save a huge amount of money, and it’s morally repugnant to possess WMDs.

That’s why this is a crap proposal. It isn’t independence. Its a difference shape of interdependencies which may or may not work but certainly don’t count as a repatriation of all sovereignty to Holyrood.

You don’t quite understand how independence works. Sure, we’d be tied into a currency union, EU treaties, NATO treaties, WTO treaties, whatever, same as every other country.

But if we didn’t like it, we could elect a government that would pull us out of those treaties. We could decide for ourselves whether we wanted to be in those clubs or not.

Without independence, we’re just hanging on the UK’s coattails.

By it’s very definition, a government chosen by the people is fairer than one that is not. A government in Scotland, chosen by the people of Scotland, is fairer than a partly-unelected government that only has minimal support in Scotland.

This is just a question of choosing which people you regard as the base unit. It’s childishly nationalistic. The decisions we make are better decisions just because they’re ours. What if you choose the British as the base unit? Prods? White people?

Not better, just more representative of what the people want.

It’s childishly nationalistic

Putin should use that line to ukraine 😉

By it’s very definition, a government chosen by the people is fairer than one that is not. A government in Scotland, chosen by the people of Scotland, is fairer than a partly-unelected government that only has minimal support in Scotland.

It has to be true, assuming we agree democratic is fairer.

This is just a question of choosing which people you regard as the base unit.

As I’ve said before, I would prefer a fully federal system of government in the UK. If that was in place, Scottish independence would be a fringe issue.

But it isn’t. We’re stuck with Westminster, with its undemocratic voting system, its unelected Lords, its cronyism and nepotism. No party wants to get rid of it, or even reform the system slightly.

So all we can do is pick the base unit we have to work with – Scotland – and change that.

Few people deny Scotland is a country – certainly not the “I’m a proud Scot” Better Together people. Scotland is a typical Northern European country in political outlook. It’s Britain that’s weird:

https://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkingdom/adam-ramsay/scotland-isnt-different-its-britain-thats-bizarre

OH so more from that link which claims

25 October 1951 – Conservative (Winston Churchill)
Scotland voted Conservative (48.6%). Got Conservative.
England voted Labour (46.1%). Got Conservative.

http://www.politicsresources.net/area/uk/ge51/seats51.htm

says england voted conservative in % and MP terms so I think that paper /claim must be poor but I cannot be bothered doing them all.

Can I see any working rational for your claim please THM

I assume you iwsh to ignore the fact based nature of my retorts and just maintain your claim and then call AS names?

FWIW http://www.politicsresources.net/area/uk/uktable.htm

Which links to each result and then you can do it by region to see what the figures are

yes it is a slow day at work

It has to be true, assuming we agree democratic is fairer.

Then wouldn’t it be even fairer for Fifers if Fife was independent?

Then wouldn’t it be even fairer for Fifers if Fife was independent?
[/quote]Of course. All Fife has to do is create it’s own legitimately elected local government and then negotiate with the govt. of iScotland to hold a referendum.

There is a proposal to create around 100 local councils and devolve a lot of power to them:

http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/wider-political-news/radical-proposals-to-create-100-local-scottish-councils.25038415

That sounds unfair.

says england voted conservative in % and MP terms so I think that paper /claim must be poor but I cannot be bothered doing them all.

Your link says England voted 45.64% Conservative (or 48.78% for a combined Conservative sub-total) and 48.81% Labour.

I assume you iwsh to ignore the fact based nature of my retorts

what’s that phrase your so keen on about ironing?

I think the reductionist argument about Orkney, Shetland, Fife etc being able to vote is on a par with the counter-point about England being able to vote to go independent. As scotroutes says, all you have to do is elect the right people, who can then negotiate a case for a referendum. The SNP have done exactly that, which still staggers me, given what level of support they used to gather in the 70s and 80s.

But it isn’t. We’re stuck with Westminster, with its undemocratic voting system, its unelected Lords, its cronyism and nepotism. No party wants to get rid of it, or even reform the system slightly.

There was a great programme on the House of Lords recently, basically saying they were good for the country because they lacked ‘party’ political affiliation, leaving them free to approve or discredit ideas on merit*.

*Yes, this is a massive generalisation open to attack. I’ll see if I can dig out the original piece (I want to say it was ‘Lord’s Tale’, but I’m not sure it is without watching a good portion of it).

what’s that phrase your so keen on about ironing?

Sorry I did not mean to put the % [ the difference is only 0.03 %] claim in there I just meant to put down the MP’s. My error, I was wrong and not trying to spin it. I have not really helped my case have I 😳 Sorry and thanks for at least reading.
If we look at MP’s
Conservative – 259 and combined 271
Labour – 233
England Tory MP’s were the majority even thought they [just] lost the popular vote
I am not sure that is “losing the election” and if it is then england alone lost the election. there will not be a similar scenario in scotland and the point was % were chosen to spin the case.
I am not sure how i could have made that point worse or shot myself in the foot so more.
It is marginal and shows the weakness in FPTP rather than

Then wouldn’t it be even fairer for Fifers if Fife was independent?

There is probably a point at which passport for Pimlico becomes a comedy and a little counter productive
We have done the a constituency is not a country debate a numbe rof time now

There was a great programme on the House of Lords recently, basically saying they were good for the country because they lacked ‘party’ political affiliation, leaving them free to approve or discredit ideas on merit*.

voting for the house of lords would be a disaster, we already have a bunch to self serving politicians only looking after their own career… Salmond included…
Anyway, back to Scotland… good luck, go independent, cos if you don’t there will only be continued whining about it…

Any figures for setting up a parallel civil service? I would assume now the cost will be similar what ever the size of the country due to a lot of the work being done in large call centers and computer systems. Discounting stuff like the police of course.

Do any of you who support the yes side know why all politicians in all countries are despised? Yes I know they are politicians but they promise the moon on a stick but strangely enough usually cannot deliver. Don’t be fooled into thinking politics in Scotland will be any different.

Any figures for setting up a parallel civil service?

Why would we need to do that when we already have one?

The UK has a civil service and some of the infrastructure is based in Scotland. Any changes to policies such as big tax changes will require big changes to the software for example. Roll on those big IT projects.

Geda – the dunleavy report looked into this – the plan is that they are going to continue using rUK DVLA, HMRC etc. until at least 2018 under contract

Of course, thats if we’re willing to let them use it – which IMO is entirely dependent on their attitude regards debt repayments, Faslane etc.

Of course, thats if we’re willing to let them use it – which IMO is entirely dependent on their attitude regards debt repayments, Faslane etc.

With that attitude on display we’d simply take our percentage share of each and every part of the UK including software code leaving you right up shit street. But only we wouldn’t do that as we are a mature and responsible nation.

I assumed that there must be a period of dual running. Still it would be interesting to see how much it will cost as they are capital projects that will need funding, borrowing for example. Borrowing will cost more for a new country especially if it does not have its own currency. Another interesting thing is for example campaigning for a nuclear free Scotland. Individual policies are pointless as surely the only thing that matters is yes/no it is only after independence that these sort of decisions will be made. At a guess the Scottish political climate could swing to the right as you are no longer voting against those bullying southern tories but for “self reliant” Scottish conservatives that want to encourage free enterprise and get foreign investment. Fair social policies can only come from a strong economy. Look at Ireland for an example. As I have said before culture steers the politics of a country and in terms of culture there is not that much difference between England and Scotland.

With that attitude on display we’d simply take our percentage share of each and every part of the UK including software code leaving you right up shit street. But only we wouldn’t do that as we are a mature and responsible nation.

Aye big man, Scotland holds all the bargaining chips, eh!

now, who is it whose vote they have to get to join the EU? 😆

At a guess the Scottish political climate could swing to the right

You been drinking?

in terms of culture there is not that much difference between England and Scotland

If by England you mean the North of England then I’d agree with you, but the south is radically different.

It is safe to say both sides have nuclear [ see what I did there] threats to the other but i doubt either will press it as its obvious it would harm both sides

Aye big man, Scotland holds all the bargaining chips, eh!

now, who is it whose vote they have to get to join the EU?

Given that everyone in Scotland is already an EU citizen and will remain so after independence due to there being no mechanism for removing our EU citizenship then it certainly will not be needing the rUK’s vote, or indeed lack of veto.

Scotland holds more bargaining chips that you give it credit for. That’s probably why there is so much opposition from Westminster and south of the border – because you know that you’re in a bit of trouble if independence does happen.

Given that everyone in Scotland is already an EU citizen and will remain so after independence due to there being no mechanism for removing our EU citizenship then it certainly will not be needing the rUK’s vote, or indeed lack of veto.

Yes, keep on repeating it and it might come true – shame that all the EU politicians still seem to reckon the opposite 😆

Maybe its hidden in that legal opinion that Alex still refuses to publish 🙄

One question – if you’re wrong, whats plan B?

One question – if you’re wrong, whats plan B?

Stay out of the EU and have the fishing grounds all to ourselves.

With that attitude on display we’d simply take our percentage share of each and every part of the UK including software code leaving you right up shit street.

Marvellous. Do I know you IRL? There’s a chap at work says almost exactly the same.

He’s not very bright.

Stay out of the EU and have the fishing grounds all to ourselves.

😆

£500M fishing business, versus £1.3 billion whisky exports to EU

I’m afraid that this is a trade war you ain’t gonna win 😉