• This topic has 184 replies, 53 voices, and was last updated 6 years ago by myti.
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  • No more Boys and Girls
  • myti
    Free Member

    Anyone else been watching this? I’m absolutely gutted by the amount of stereotyping the 7 year olds are doing to themselves. The girls particularly seem to be giving themselves such a raw deal. Sad as I thought things would have come along further since the 80`s when I was at school and was frustrated at being made to wear a skirt to school and not being allowed to play football or cricket because they were boys sports.

    Here’s hoping programmes like this will help set small changes in motion.

    TheDTs
    Free Member

    Interesting program.
    I have two girls, 6 and 7. We are quite aware of the gender stereotyping and try to limit the amount of pink in the house. Try telling that to most of the other parents at the school and most of our families though!
    I can’t fault their school or their teachers.

    jambourgie
    Free Member

    Are you a boy that used to wear a skirt to school, or a girl posting on this forum? Can’t decide which is more likely…

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    GrahamS
    Full Member

    Not seen the programme yet, but as a father of two young girls I see it every day 🙁

    I was just listening to a mum the other day lamenting that she is constantly doing the washing because her boys play in the dirt and how she wishes for a nice clean little girl. 🙄

    My two are very much encouraged to get dirty. Running, jumping, climbing trees, all that good stuff.

    But I do regularly still have to challenge my own gender bias by asking myself questions like “Would you tell them off for this if they were boys?”

    forzafkawi
    Free Member

    I haven’t watched this but would tend to agree that there should be equal opportunities for either sexes to indulge in atypical gender specific activities. I’m 62 this year and have witnessed some incredible advances for women in even my relatively short lifetime.

    For instance, when I started cycling seriously as a sport over 30 years ago it was very rare that you saw a woman on the few sportives that were around. Nowdays there are myriads of them riding and they are not hanging about either which is great!

    I do think you also have to be careful though to respect the wishes and inclinations of the indivudual though, whatever sex. There are still natural instincts associated with each sex and I’m not sure if it would be advisible or even desirable to try and subjugate them like some would have you do. Only time will tell I guess.

    allthegear
    Free Member

    I’m not sure if it would be advisible or even desirable to try and subjugate them like some would have you do.

    Heh – quite right, too. Except maybe I don’t think I mean what you mean…

    Rachel

    forzafkawi
    Free Member

    Heh – quite right, too. Except maybe I don’t think I mean what you mean…

    Rachel

    I’m talking about not subjugating the natural instincts of each sex not the actual individuals. 😀

    GrahamS
    Full Member

    I’m talking about not subjugating the natural instincts of each sex

    I think the aim (as I see it) isn’t to suppress any natural gender instincts – it’s just to let them know that they can be whatever they want to be.

    It’s about freedom, not suppression.

    crankboy
    Free Member

    I think the question is to explore whether their are natural gender instincts or whether their are culturally imposed/learned gender differences.

    forzafkawi
    Free Member

    I think the aim (as I see it) isn’t to suppress any natural gender instincts – it’s just to let them know that they can be whatever they want to be.

    It’s about freedom, not suppression.

    I agree but I have read there are those who are taking things a bit too far in an effort to prove they are gender neutral parents. Young children very often have no say in the matter and have to suffer the consequences of the parents effectively using them as guinea pigs in a social experiment.

    allthegear
    Free Member

    What is taking things too far? Can you give a concrete example?

    GrahamS
    Full Member

    Well there was the recent case of the Canadian couple who were fighting to avoid having a gender on their baby’s birth certificate.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world-0/canada-kori-doty-genderless-baby-searyl-atli-rights-battle-transsexual-identity-a7821201.html

    That seems a little bit much to me. That genetic gender is an identifying feature of that individual, recorded on an important state identity document. It’s just a biological fact. It may not match the gender they adopt in later life, but that’s okay isn’t it?

    (I suspect your feelings on this may be stronger than mine Rachel)

    Poopscoop
    Full Member

    Amongst all the worries and concerns patents may have about bringing children up I honestly think this is a pretty low concern over all.

    Many patents would love the luxury of only laying awake at night worrying if they are being gender neutral enough.

    glasgowdan
    Free Member

    Don’t forget, boys and girls ARE actually different and trying to make them the same is quite wrong.

    allthegear
    Free Member

    Are they? How do you know that? Are they different because of inherent traits or through exposure to external influence?

    DrP
    Full Member

    I’d agree with Dan. ^^

    Though I disagree with the idea that ‘girls aren’t as good or can’t be as good’, i have the promote the idea the sexes ARE different!
    Both in genotype and phenotype….

    Men are stronger and more angry (generally) – we’ve evolved that way.
    Women have more of a home maker instinct (generally)..now, completely NOT wanting to be sexist with these statements, but it’s kinda true.

    It’s almost like saying ‘women should be able to grow beards..lets let them’… bar a few hormonal imbalances, women simply can’t grow beards.

    I know this is a difficult subject, and PLEASE don’t think I’m a misogynistic tool… but women and men look different, behave differently, and are different!
    I hope they are all given equal opportunities, but at times, one sex IS better and more natural at a certain task…

    Hmmm..

    Flame me away 😉

    DrP

    bencooper
    Free Member

    Well there was the recent case of the Canadian couple who were fighting to avoid having a gender on their baby’s birth certificate.

    Well, really they were fighting to avoid having a sex on the birth certificate. Sex is not gender. Confusing those two is what leads to a lot of the problems.

    DrP – there are physical and genetic differences between men and women. I don’t think there’s any evidence that those differences extend to the brain – the differences in behaviour are pretty much all down to nurture not nature, especially in the early years.

    myti
    Free Member

    Doctor p.Have you seen the programme though I think if you did you would be sad for some of the girls. It’s not about making everyone the same and actually a lot of what you think is biological is actually not. Boys and girls brains are the same at that age but even as tiny babies boys and girls are played with and spoken to differently. Please watch it’s well done with a scientific basis.

    howsyourdad1
    Free Member

    Big thing here in Sweden. There is a pronoun when you don’t want to say he ( han) or she (hon) you use hen. Friends are making up new names for their children that are gender neutral.

    Personally I support it, my son or daughter can do or be whatever they want.

    vickypea
    Free Member

    Don’t forget, boys and girls ARE actually different and trying to make them the same is quite wrong.

    They’re not always as different as you might think and trying to stereotype them is also wrong. I actually think that stereotyping went worse in some ways, In the past 20 years. I was a kid in the 1970s and preferred my train set, cars, riding my bike and getting muddy. I did have dolls and shit but I didn’t like them. No, I didn’t have any brothers, just a younger sister.

    There was definitely no pink obsession like there is now. I think I would have been very unhappy if I’d had Disney princesses, glitter, pink and Barbie dolls forced on me!

    neilco
    Free Member

    Not seen the programme but would like to. I consider myself a fairly progressive parent so was upset the other day to hear my six year old daughter refer to boys’ sports and boys’ colours 🙁

    allthegear
    Free Member

    Even I would be unhappy to have the pink glitter forced on me!

    Rachel

    geetee1972
    Free Member

    I think the question is to explore whether their are natural gender instincts or whether their are culturally imposed/learned gender differences.

    the differences in behaviour are pretty much all down to nurture not nature, especially in the early years.

    There are a few things wrong with these suppositions.

    First lets address the issue of brain structure and put aside for one moment the fact that we don’t know anything like enough about the true workings, structures and functionings of it to really know if there are or aren’t differences.

    If indeed there aren’t differences, what then causes the very apparent physiological differences between men and women? That surely cannot be down to nurture. Obviously.

    Second, assuming there is an argument to be made between nurture versus nature, it is impossible to seaparte them to the point that they are more or less the same thing.

    Think of it like this:

    Nurture = culture, culture = societeal behaviours, norms, values, artistic expressions etc, that set of things = the product of behaviour, behaviour is a function of the personality and ultimately your DNA.

    You can’t separate them. You’re DNA creates a set of parameters within which your natrual behavioural proclivities will be expressed. These parameters are relatively fixed; there is very little change over time (all the studies support this) but you do see with maturity, the ability to expand the parameters beyond what you were born with. This is a good example of learnt rather than innate behaviour.

    Since the data also suggests that there are small but very significant differences between the personalities of men and women (women tend to score higher on agreeableness and neuroticism, men on conscientousness and lower on agreeableness; look those terms up before you comment on them as they don’t mean what you might think), our culture reflects this and becomes a feedback mechanism.

    It becomes very difficult to separate the two in any meaningful way, which in this instance is to try and isolate cause and effect.

    Of course the key to this conundrum is to over ride your innate behaviours and choosd to behave a different way. Behaviour is not personality and while it might be an expression of this, you do still have some choice about what you choose to express. If you go too far with that supression, you will almost certainly end up clinically depressed though but that’s a separate thread.

    They’re not always as different as you might think and trying to stereotype them is also wrong. I

    This though is far more relevant and important than the differences. Men and women are far more alike than they are different.

    One thing we are guilty of as a society is polarising ourselves along gender lines and making far more of the differences than we should.

    This is squarely in the camp if ‘nurture’ even if it does have a biological cause (which it might or might not). It is interesting that we do this but the evidence is that humans tend to accentuate, even look for, the differences between us and then exagerate them. We see this with all characteristics such as race, sexuality, personality etc.

    v8ninety
    Full Member

    boys and girls ARE actually different

    The position of the experts involved in the program is that pre puberty, they really aren’t that different at all, but WE, as society, make them different. It’s an interesting and compelling argument, and quite tragic for the girls. 7 year old girls already internalising the ‘fact’ that boys are better leaders, stronger, cleverer etc; FFS 😡

    bodgy
    Free Member

    I’m with Dan on this one. As a parent of 21+ years, of a boy and 2 girls; anyone who thinks they are inherently the same is nuts.

    That said, the core level of stereotyping is abhorrent. For example; why do girls’ school shoes predominantly all have heels? Girls like to run around as much as boys.

    geetee1972
    Free Member

    he position of the experts involved in the program is that pre puberty, they really aren’t that different at all, but WE, as society, make them different.

    That’s only a hypothesis. You cannot conclude that any lack of observable behavioural difference at one point means that any future difference can only be attributable to cultural effects. You can only suggest this and then test for it.

    Which by the way has been done and it seems that the small but important differences in personality and behaviour are indeed innate.

    Again, they are only small. We are vastly more alike than we are different.

    Men and women develop in vastly different ways after puberty – does that mean that this must also be nurture?

    boriselbrus
    Free Member

    Men are stronger and more angry (generally) – we’ve evolved that way.

    One of the issues addressed in the programme was that pretty much from birth boys are taught that tough guys don’t cry and should suppress emotions. This leads to them expressing themselves through the only emotion acceptable to a boy which is anger.

    Teach them to have a more nurturing and caring side with dolls and soft toys rather than guns and swords and you end up with much less angry, more empathetic boys.

    At the age of 7 I had a female teacher who hated boys and would counter emotion with shouting and sarcastic comments. In comparison if a girl got emotional she was hugged and comforted.

    I ended up being a very angry and emotionally repressed child and it took me years to develop away from that. I guess many boys grew up the same way and are still angry now.

    GrahamS
    Full Member

    7 year old girls already internalising the ‘fact’ that boys are better leaders, stronger, cleverer etc; FFS

    My own 7 year old daughter has sadly said things like “Boys are better than girls” since she was six. This is not something she got from me and is something I try to drum out of her.

    Currently reading the excellent “Bedtime Stories for Rebel Girls” to her every night. She loves it.

    For example; why do girls’ school shoes predominantly all have heels?

    Or in the recent Clarks example, the girl’s shoe was called “Dolly Babe” and the boy’s shoe was called “Leader” 👿

    sssimon
    Free Member

    I’m with Dan on this one. As a parent of 21+ years, of a boy and 2 girls; anyone who thinks they are inherently the same is nuts.

    That said, the core level of stereotyping is abhorrent. For example; why do girls’ school shoes predominantly all have heels? Girls like to run around as much as boys.

    Our kids, boy and girl, are wired very very differently. They’ve been given the same opportunities but they approach life from a very different angle. Given even a gender neutral toy like lego the boy loves the building and breaking, the girl loves building it to.see how she can play with it and how the figures will interact with it. I’d say we’ve done a good job in that we’ve ended job with a boy whonisnt afraid to sing and dance (sometimes halfway through a rugby match) and a girl whonwill go straight from Ballet to the BMX track.

    v8ninety
    Full Member

    That’s only a hypothesis.

    Absolutely, but it’s a compelling one, and it fits with my experience as a parent and an adult who has long been interested in gender inequality.

    Again, they are only small. We are vastly more alike than we are different.

    The differences emphasised (at age 7!) by the programme were NOT small however. And they rang true.

    Men and women develop in vastly different ways after puberty – does that mean that this must also be nurture?

    Obviously not. This is about prepuberty. However, character traits and internal belief and understanding of how the world works will have been largely formed PRE puberty.

    neilco
    Free Member

    My own 7 year old daughter has sadly said things like “Boys are better than girls” since she was six.

    I was quite happy when my daughter came home singing “girls win / boys go in the bin.” Less happy when my wife was still singing it six hours later.

    geetee1972
    Free Member

    Absolutely, but it’s a compelling one, and it fits with my experience as a parent and an adult who has long been interested in gender inequality.

    As a parent myself I can empathise with this experience but as evidence to support a hypothesis its irrelevant and meaningless.

    The differences emphasised (at age 7!) by the programme were NOT small however.

    OK but then this is just a TV programme. As a means of representing and understanding the world, it’s as irrelevant as our individual experiences. It offers zero value as data and only serves as entertainment to reflect the editors view of the world.

    I’m not saying that the differences don’t exist because clearly they do. It’s just that we have to realise that this programme was broadcast with a conclusion already in mind that preculded all other possibilities. That makes it worthless for anything other than entertainmet.

    Obviously not. This is about prepuberty. However, character traits and internal belief and understanding of how the world works will have been largely formed PRE puberty.

    Not for one second would I dismiss the critical nature of childhood experiences and how these impact your life (heck I’m speaking from painful personal experience here) but that is not the same thing as saying that all of who we are is determined by puberty. Quite apart from anything else, the data shows a clear change in people’s view of the world as we get older. That changes radically based on experience and is why our personality expression can increase in range.

    It is true to say that a lot of what makes us, us, is innate though and relatively fixed from before pubverty and so won’t change much. But then that brings us back to nature not nurture.

    theotherjonv
    Full Member

    Very mixed feelings on this, particularly as i have a daughter (11) that has seen both the good and the bad side of it.

    She’s a real ‘tomboy’ (and i use that term carefully as even that is stereotyping) in that she has always been interested in what i guess we are trying to avoid labelling as boy stuff, like sport, and nerf gun parties and ….

    She’s also the kindest, most caring kid you could hope to meet, shows incredible sensitivity to others.

    There are undoubtedly challenges and stereotypes to overcome still, but you know what – I don’t think there’s a better time to be a girl growing up than now. Because as i tell her, she can do everything a ‘boy’ can (i don’t use the grow a beard example yet, I have banned her from weeing standing up though) and at the same time if she wants to also do ‘girl’ stuff then no-one will bat an eyelid.

    Frighteningly; the only people who seem to struggle with the concept currently are her (male) peer group at school, and discussing with teachers who have been absolutely brilliant even that’s a moot point. She’s usually last to be picked for lunchtime football for example – and while the immediate impulse is it’s because she’s a girl, and the boys don’t want girls playing football, having watched and observed her teacher doesn’t think it is that….it’s because as they’ve got bigger and stronger and reached that point where physical power starts to deviate, she’s picked last because she is the ‘weakest’ person there. Which is cruel in a different way, if you want to see it that way (and maybe in time as the boys emotional sensitivity grows may reverse), but in a way is total acceptance in that they make no allowances for her sex, and judge her only on capability.

    geetee1972
    Free Member

    She’s also the kindest, most caring kid you could hope to meet, shows incredible sensitivity to others.

    Case in point. Women overall score higher on agreeableness than men.

    Agreeableness Definitino

    rocketman
    Free Member

    women simply can’t grow beards

    doris5000
    Full Member

    i think there are a lot of people here that really should watch the programme!

    honestly, it’s actually very good.

    there was a good experiment last week where they dressed some babies in gender-opposite clothes and some random adults played with them. Adults who thought they were playing with girls tended to pick up pink toys and dollies, while adults who thought they were playing with boys were more likely to be hands on, pick them up and put them on the big tractor etc.

    The adults were surprised afterwards when they discovered that Sophie was in fact Joshua, and they had been picking gendered toys without really thinking about it. None of them would have thought they were ‘perpetuating gender stereotypes’ but were vaguely embarrassed to think that they were subconsciously doing it.

    Funnily enough I always think of a post on here (not long ago – we did this recently!) where someone who was arguing strongly that gender differences are mostly innate, and used the example of their own young children: his wife had tried to get the son involved in baking cakes, and he had tried to get his daughter interested in the relative merits of 27.5 vs 29 or whatever, but to no avail. But he didn’t acknowledge that growing up in a house where ‘the cake person’ was female, and ‘the bikes and cars person’ was male, might influence a child’s opinion on what men and women do.

    kayla1
    Free Member

    Not directly related to the programme but…

    I was at the dentist’s earlier this year, in the waiting room, and there was a dad there with his youngish (7 or 8-ish) daughter. He was doing all the gender stereotyping stuff, like boys’ colours and girls’ colours, that sort of shit. Who knew that black is a boys colour? Not me. It fair made my piss boil but how the hell do you even begin to think about the possibility of educating that sort of stupidity out of someone?

    vickypea
    Free Member

    Our kids, boy and girl, are wired very very differently.

    That’s your personal experience and I don’t doubt you, but my sister and I (two girls) were always wired differently.

    As a parent of 21+ years, of a boy and 2 girls; anyone who thinks they are inherently the same is nuts.

    And as a parent of 20 years and a woman of 49 years…..although I’m not saying boys and girls are “inherently the same”, there is a sliding scale and we are not as different as you may think.

    Anyone listened to the Infinite Monkey Cage episode on the difference between men and women? There’s very little evidence for a significant difference in brains.

    miketually
    Free Member

    Our kids, boy and girl, are wired very very differently.

    My kids, girl and girl, are wired very very differently.

    mogrim
    Full Member

    There’s very little evidence for a significant difference in brains.

    Yeah, but we also share 99% of our DNA with chimps… You don’t need much of a physical difference for there to be a clear visible difference.

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