.molgrips – Member
Not sure what you mean by that?
What I said earlier. Some people stay skinny whatever they do.

So someone who eats 2500 calories a day and then increases his calorie consumption to 5000 calories a day BUT does not increase the amount of calories they use WILL NOT PUT ON WEIGHT?

Some people would yes. And also depends on the nature of those calories. This has been proven beyond all doubt. Search for the guy who ate 5000 calories a day.

Is it time to pose the veg vs butterscotch yumyums diet question again toys? 🙂

.molgrips – Member
This has been proven beyond all doubt

I have heard it all now! The only thing that has been proved beyond any doubt is eating more than you need makes you fat.

SD 253 I see that for some reason this is a sore subject? Very touchy about it?

I’m just telling you my personal experience. There is no doubt in my mind that I can eat more and do less and stay skinny than other people I know/work with.

I have eaten crap and not exercised with a semi active job
I have eaten crap and not exercised with a desk job
And eaten well and exercised with a desk job

All 3 scenarios resulted in being pretty damn skinny. If anything the eating well and exercise is letting me put on weight (muscle). I’ve never been anything close to overweight and I have been very unfit in the past.

Just seem the double the calories argument. Try and keep it reasonable 😉 2500 to 3000 would that mean you put on weight until you were 20st? What about 2500 to 2000 would you slowly waste away to nothing?

deadlydarcy – Member
Is it time to pose the veg vs butterscotch yumyums diet question again toys?

100grms of salad leaves = 16 calories.
A kilo of salad leaves = 160 calories.
100grms of Olive oil = 900 calories
A kilo of Olive oil = 9000 calories

Veg vs butterscotch yumyums

The doubling the calorie statement was a counter to

.molgrips – Member
What I said earlier. Some people stay skinny whatever they do.

don’t be pathetic

Just seem the double the calories argument. Try and keep it reasonable 2500 to 3000 would that mean you put on weight until you were 20st? What about 2500 to 2000 would you slowly waste away to nothing?

if you eat 500 calories more than you need then you will put on weight until you reach a plateau same with eating 500 calories less.AGAIN

.molgrips – Member
Some people stay skinny whatever they do.

pity you can’t see statements like that.

I see that for some reason this is a sore subject? Very touchy about it?

Yes I abhore pathetic excuses. Can you think of another reason? As you are clearly implying you can. Again you actually have to prove your view NOT to me but yourself by doing the maths actually checking. Sorry it is my nature to want to see proof to actually do the maths. I do not assume anything. That’s me.

How are the calories of food calculated SD?

(Google will help you here. Not that you’d be the type of person to jump in with an ill-informed opinion before checking the facts.)

Some people are what I call “what else can it be people” A mate said I feel weak all the time, I am in pain all the time. It must be the Statins the doctors put me on 2 months ago. I questioned this “what else can it be” he went to the doctor long story short needed major spinal operation. Toy r us and molgrips are “what else can it be” type of people. Got it mssansserif

.deadlydarcy – Member
How are the calories of food calculated SD?

(Google will help you here. Not that you’d be the type of person to jump in with an ill-informed opinion before checking the facts.)
What have I said that you disagree with?

Oh get a grip 😉 this is the internet don’t get so worked up.

Anyways back to the almost rational and civil discussion. You talk about plateauing at a weight for certain calorie intake? Can we agree that this will be a calorie intake with a range for a certain weight? And this will be different from person to person?

Therefore I can say eat 2500 calories and be on the skinny end of skinny and someone else can eat 2500 calories and be on the tubby side of tubby? Assuming the same exercise level.

So 2500 is an average amount of calories so “normal” meals mean I stay skinny but the same meals could make someone gain weight.

That’s the point we are talking about here. Clearly if I eat 10000 calories I’m going to put on weight it it’s not really going to be an accident it will take effort to eat that much….

What else can it be? According to you it can’t be anything else it’s just what your opinion 😉

SD-253 – Member

100grms of salad leaves = 16 calories.
A kilo of salad leaves = 160 calories.
100grms of Olive oil = 900 calories
A kilo of Olive oil = 9000 calories

100g of olive oil = 900 calories into your mouth, but may only be 630 calories into your body according to this: http://www.zoeharcombe.com/the-knowledge/energy-in-does-not-equal-energy-out/

By the same author this is interesting: Eating less will not make us weigh less

What other factors have an influence on calories burnt beside moving around?

muscle mass?
basal metabolic rate?
temperature of your house/workplace?
how much you use your brain?
illnesses?

CaptJon – Member
SD-253 – Member

100g of olive oil = 900 calories into your mouth, but may only be 630 calories into your body according

I don’t agree with the figure as its to low but clearly fat is harder for your body to Absorb as I have already stated/implied with the more a food is processed the easier it is absorbed and therefore the more calories you get. Try eating the same 900 calories of unprocessed olives?

to this: http://www.zoeharcombe.com/the-knowledge/energy-in-does-not-equal-energy-out/

As I said but not well put. It should read energy in does not equal energy absorbed. Also the food eat with it increase/decrease absorption.

By the same author this is interesting: Eating less will not make us weigh less

why? you eat less calories you will weigh less. The variation is at the margins. You are merely making excuses for people you are not doing them a favour. If person is overweight and they keep on reducing the amount of calories they eat they will hit the point where there weight falls.

What other factors have an influence on calories burnt beside moving around?

muscle mass?
basal metabolic rate?
temperature of your house/workplace?
how much you use your brain?
illnesses?
Obviously?

Also see earlier posting below again the difference is at the margins BUT there is much bigger margin here. If you eat 100grms of sugar (400 calories) in one go it would be in your blood stream in a minute but your body has no need of that many calories in one go so it goes into your fat store. While if you spread it over 2 hours your body wouldn’t not turn it into fat it would use it as is. Now your body would clearly have difficulty turning that 400 calories that is stored as fat back into energy at the same rate as eating it over 2 hours.

.SD-253 – Member
A little aside here, the amount of calories you get out of two what appear to be exactly the same foods are not the same. The greater you process a food the easier it passes through your stomach walls and into your blood and so on. Or put another way the more calories you get out of it. We as in humans took processing food so as to get more calories Out of it. The start was cooking food which will give you more calories than eating anything raw. Porridge I believe is an example the more the oats are processed the more calories you get out of it. Those little packets of “oats so simple” are highly processed therefore you get more calories out than if you eat unprocessed oats. How much extra doesn’t appear to be easily measurable.

By the way this is not really supportive of people who are overweight

100g of olive oil = 900 calories into your mouth, but may only be 630 calories into your body according to this

Edit – deleted, I didnt read the post properly!

You are merely making excuses for people you are not doing them a favour.

Please don’t confuse my posts with others who are saying what they are posting is gospel. I’m just interested to explore the science here and don’t have an agenda other than to point out things more complex than most people think.

Calorie restriction is not a long term solution, imo.

glad you posted that …. it just confirms what ive said.

move more than you did , eat less than you would have had you moved that much.

Diet is a shit way to lose weight unless medical reasons prohibit moving more.

glad you posted that …. it just confirms what ive said.

move more than you did , eat less than you would have had you moved that much.

Sadly, I fear you haven’t read that. Selective reading, voluntary or otherwise, is the flaw in this format of discussion.
🙁

Solo, this is STW. It would all work much better in the pub. Plus people would not find it so easy to resort to being rude.

Solo, this is STW. It would all work much better in the pub. Plus people would not find it so easy to resort to being rude.

Aye. Having been a past offender myself, I do try now to moderate my enthusiasm and my quantity of posts, here.

The only thing that has been proved beyond any doubt is eating more than you need makes you fat.

Here are some people eating a lot and not getting fat:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7838668.stm
http://live.smashthefat.com/why-i-didnt-get-fat/

You say that if you eat too much you get fat. This is true for the MAJORITY of people, but not everyone.

Yes I abhore pathetic excuses.

I’m not making **** excuses! I’m only interested in the science. Because I want to be leaner than I am (incidentally, I’m not fat), and I want to figure out how my own body works and how to get it to do what I want.

I’ll freely admit that I have eaten too many cakes and sweets in the past. I’ll go into great detail if you want, and I have on here many times. I’m not hiding anything.

The argument I am trying to make is not a personal one. Please read carefully and understand. On this thread I am aiming to debunk the stupid thermodynamics argument. If everyone were the same, and it was down to calories into your mouth vs physical work done, then everyone’s body would behave the same way

EVERYONE’S BODY IS NOT THE SAME!

Grips.

Its Friday morning, Chill.

I’ll freely admit that I have eaten too many cakes and sweets in the past.
Thats very honest of you and I’ve always had the impression that some folk find it easier than others to abstain from making poor dietary decisions, on a daily basis.
One-offs don’t count, the odd indulgence should be part of the “
balance” in their diets, that some people talk about.
Its the daily, repetition of poor diet choices, that does the damage, whether you’re skinny or not, imo.

Excessive carbs in the diet goes further than just a wasit line measurement, in harming the body. imo.

molgrips, sd253 is just looking for excuses to insult people and get away with it. We would all be better off if we ignore him.

i’ll freely admit that I have eaten too many cakes and sweets in the past. I’ll go into great detail if you want, and I have on here many times. I’m not hiding anything.

what about the cakes and sweets that you’ve been eating recently though, are you hiding those? 😉

One can only presume that you prefer eating cakes to losing weight but that choice is wholly yours.

Must not post… Must not post… dammit

SD-253 – Member

So someone who eats 2500 calories a day and then increases his calorie consumption to 5000 calories a day BUT does not increase the amount of calories they use WILL NOT PUT ON WEIGHT?

molgrips – Member

Some people would yes. And also depends on the nature of those calories. This has been proven beyond all doubt. Search for the guy who ate 5000 calories a day.

http://live.smashthefat.com/why-i-got-a-bit-fat

Its only a single test subject, granted, but there is a lot more evidence to debunk what you are trying to ram down peoples throats here.

One can only presume that you prefer eating cakes to losing weight but that choice is wholly yours.

Feel better for that ?

So while your picking on someone, please try to remind yourself that person is also looking for a better understanding and that not everyone stands in the same place on the lipogenic curve. On account of past diet, age, sex.
🙄

Solo, this is my point about the bigotry on here, and in RL. You see fat people tentativly heading to the gym to try and sort their lives out, and people laugh at them, patronise them, or are just plain rude. Arseholes.

One can only presume that you prefer eating cakes to losing weight but that choice is wholly yours.

I like loosing weight, but I also really really like cakes.

Why do I like cakes so much?

You see fat people tentativly heading to the gym to try and sort their lives out, and people laugh at them, patronise them, or are just plain rude.

I agree. Fat people have a problem – self control, self image, physical, whatever it is – but as a society we’ve managed to build up this exercise/diet thing into some kind of transient religion so it seems to some people like a really big deal to change your lifestyle.

Have you ever spoken to an obese person with low self esteem about exercise?

I am an obese person. I would say I have high self esteem, and just accept that I am fat and old as a fact rather than a failing. I do want to enjoy riding and live long so I am attempting to sort it out.

I don’t know how I ended up like this, i used to be a gym bunny, fit as flea. Work, kids a bit of depression a few years a go. Then once you put it on, its bloody hard to shift.

but as a society we’ve managed to build up this exercise/diet thing

Upto 1960s, people who exercised vigorously and regularly were generally regarded as health nuts. And prior to this time, significant volumes of exercise were considered unhealthy ( I know, difficult to imagine, today ). Then fast forward to the 70s and 80s and we see a boom in running, gym membership and people generally engaging in all manner of exercise.

During the 1960s, Jean Mayer – amongst others – regardless of starving rodents to death in his labs, had turned his attention to creating the belief that the sedentary nature of modern living with its escalators, cars, remote controls, etc. Was contributing to the increase in obesity. Again we see a hypothesis which instinctively appears to ‘make sense‘ and so people started to believe that exercise, lots of it, was the answer.

Thats pretty much how we are where we are today. Burdened with the engrained dogma, this intrinsic link between body fat and exercise.
Good business if your in the recreational, health activity, sector.

Then once you put it on, its bloody hard to shift.

Yep. My weight is very stable – it is very hard to lose it, but it’s pretty easy to stop it going on.

Here are some people eating a lot and not getting fat:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7838668.stm
http://live.smashthefat.com/why-i-didnt-get-fat/

You say that if you eat too much you get fat. This is true for the MAJORITY of people, but not everyone.The idea that these people exist (ectomorphs) is not new (although I suppose understanding the science behind it might be). They are few and far between though so I don’t really think it’s something worth focusing on. I only know 1 person who actually is a proper ectomorph (rather than someone who THINKS they eat a lot and stay thin but in reality just pick at their food and don’t eat much at all).

You can see the smashthefat guy has very little muscle mass, despite being a trainer, so I would surmise he finds it very difficult to gain weight of any kind. Also I don’t think he’s trying to debunk “calories in vs calories out” – I just skimmed the pseudoscience on his site but I think he seems to be saying that his body is simply not absorbing the extra calories (and presumably excreting them) rather than energy just magically appearing or disappearing. I would also guess he has never been fat or had a problem with insulin resistance so I would bet the number of people who could replicate his experiment and get the same result are very few and far between.

You see fat people tentativly heading to the gym to try and sort their lives out, and people laugh at them, patronise them, or are just plain rude.

I certainly wouldn’t be rude; if they asked for advice though I would tell them that unless they’d sorted their diet out they were wasting their time. It is much easier for an obese person to lose weight simply by eating better – no gym required. It’s unlikely they’d be fit enough to sustain the volume of exercise required to actually make a difference anyway.

As diets go I can not emphasise just how easy the 5:2 diet is. Maybe it is phycological ie knowing you only have to do it for 2 days. Either way it is easy peasy. And just as importantly good for you. Try it and see.
Either way I am off to the village party where there will be lashing of cake and cider/beer. Followed by a cycle to the pub, only 6 miles and assuming I am not to rat arsed only 6 miles home. I will remove all those excess calories on Tuesday and Thursday by eating only 500 calories. When I say 500 calories I mean exactly that. I will check on the net that I have got it exactly right. No cheating with me

They are few and far between though so I don’t really think it’s something worth focusing on.

I’m not focusing on it – I’m using it to make a point that people are not simple heat engines.

The human body/heat engine analogy always looked a little suspect to me but I’m starting to realise that it’s not as far off as I thought.
Try tipping a bag of sugar into your fuel tank and see where it gets you.

.loum – Member
The human body/heat engine analogy always looked a little suspect to me but I’m starting to realise that it’s not as far off as I thought.
Try tipping a bag of sugar into your fuel tank and see where it gets you.

Accident and emergency!

.toys19 – Member
I don’t know how I ended up like this, i used to be a gym bunny, fit as flea. Work, kids a bit of depression a few years a go.

I swear on my childrens lives I have only just noticed the bit about depression. Now I am really pissed off as it looks like I had prior knowledge before I wrote the bit about toys r us needs to see a phycologist. Bugger

There was time to edit and still is

That would be just as wrong as writing it with prior knowledge. If you believe it you should say it…..unless the other bloke is a lot bigger than you.