Just wondering what this this thread will look like after Theresa has called a snap election on return from her hols and consigned the Labour Schism to an ineffectual rump for the next ten years.

Crocodile tears or lauding the triumph of the “Left” in an ideoligical transformation into a minority protest group?

Your view makes sense unlike Ninfans

Ninfan what was the legal procedure within the labour party that they were “democratically” following when they tried to ignore the wishes of the entire party and remove the leader from power? what was their authority to do this in this manner or keep him from the ballot?

What you gonna say next they were not plotting against him 😆

Your scribbles these days are utterly pathetic

To argue it was not a coup would involve arguing they did not try to get rid of him without electoral authority – i very much doubt you wish to even try to argue that – tbh I doubt even ninfan wants to try that one

I misunderestimated your desire to type the ludicrous on here
Forgive me

I think the question assumes things have already degenerated, to a point where a NATO menber has been invaded, and asks if the UK, under Corbyn, would fulfill its NATO commitment. It’s a yes or no question. Smith had no problem in answering yes, Corbyn it seems didn’t want to ask the question, saying he wanted world peace instead – yeah, we all want world peace mate, but just answer the question.

If politicians answered all the hypothetical questions put to them there would no end to them, that’s the beauty of a hypothetical question – you can change them is any way you want to catch out your opponent, they don’t refer to actual real circumstances.

“Would you be prepared to go to war with Russia ?” is a pointless and rather silly question, just like answering “yes”, or “no” for that matter, would be a pointless and rather silly answer.

It’s a sad reflection on British politics that support for a politician might be dependent on their willingness to go to war with Russia.

I’m glad he didn’t answer it. Let’s focus on grown-up politics, although I know it’s a novel idea.

Members of NATO are meant to back each other up. The softer this line gets the sooner the Baltic states are back with Russia. It’s not trivial to ask a prospective PM where he or she stands on this.

As opposed to Theresa May. “Would you press the button?”… “Yes.”

A hypothetical question with an unambiguous, straight from the shoulder response. Leaves any potential aggressor in no doubt that they’d risk their own annihilation.

As opposed to Jeremy’s weebling prevarication.

No contest, hypothetically “unfair” enquiry or not.

OK you think “would you go to war with Russia?” is a sensible question. I think “I would rather we worked to create the conditions where going to war with Russia wasn’t necessary” is a sensible answer.

You do realise we are talking about “going to war with Russia” here, don’t you ?

Have you got the slightest idea what that would entail? If you have can you let me know, I’d be interested.

Mr Woppit – Member

As opposed to Theresa May. “Would you press the button?”… “Yes.”

A hypothetical question with an unambiguous, straight from the shoulder response. Leaves any potential aggressor in no doubt that they’d risk their own annihilation.

😆 @ the claim that “any potential aggressor” bases their assessment on a TV/newspaper interview !

And of course Theresa May wouldn’t be ‘risking her own annihilation’!

Everyone wants world peace but reality is very different. I don’t think it is just Russia are a threat. After all Kuwait was invaded and while not in NATO a coalition was put together to get Saddam out, Corbyn was against that. He’d have been happy to leave Kuwait to be screwed.

“As opposed to Theresa May. “Would you press the button?”… “Yes.””

Ah, Theresa ‘I’d happily kill hundreds of thousands if not millions of innocent people’ May.

I’d be quite happy not to have a prime minister who’d happily plunge the world into nuclear war. And I know May is simply spouting the kind of rhetoric that tub-thumpers enjoy, it remains disturbing that we have a prime minister who would ultimately make our nation less safe. I’d be very surprised if she’s not already plotting her own Falklands war…

The softer this line gets the sooner the Baltic states are back with Russia.

if corbyn does not say he will nuke russia then yes Putin will invade
DEFFO

He’d have been happy to leave Kuwait to be screwed

Just like the tories were over Crimea – that sort of thing – go on given them both barrels will you as clearly it was not a partisan polemic point but one borne of principle that we must attack any country that invades another

it’s about standing with allies or at least saying you will. Reality may be more nuanced (even more nuanced than shouting ‘nuke russia’, probably), but it’s reasonable to expect a leader to be able to answer these sorts of questions in a way that won’t worry allies (not that anyone’s actually worried given corb’s level of interest in and chances attaining of power.)

“it’s about standing with allies or at least saying you will”

More like sending a message to potential enemies that ‘**** with us and we’ll nuke you’. Classic sabre-rattling.

‘Ok then, we’ll just point even more nukes your way.’

Win-win, obviously.

It does make me laugh that, on the one hand, Corbyn is somehow being portrayed as being anti-Israel, and therefore directly supporting the destruction of millions of Jews, and yet, on the other hand, is apparently some kind of hand-wringing softy. How that squares up in the minds of some is baffling.

Its clear that any hint of nuance, and that maybe the world isn’t that black and white from politicians these days from any camp just fails to have the reaction it should: of provoking debate about that viewpoint, instead of getting the knees to jerk.

There’s plenty of evidence of that here.

but it’s reasonable to expect a leader to be able to answer these sorts of questions in a way that won’t worry allies

Are you saying our allies dont want peace with russia now ?

Then you say they dont care anyway FFS- so he scared them but they dont care…when you make your mind up perhaps e can discuss your view?

Do you think its just possible that your dislike of Corbyn has lead you to place where your comments are rather daft , contradictory and hypocritical drivel?

I don’t dislike Corbyn (just what he’s inadvertently done) but yeah, that’s not mutually exclusive with my comments being along the lines of your assessment. Others will judge. I was saying he should be better prepared to answer these sorts of questions.

after Theresa has called a snap election on return from her hols and consigned the Labour Schism to an ineffectual rump for the next ten years.

Well apart from the fact that she doesn’t have the power to call a new election, if she did, I think it could be a blessing in disguise for the labour party. Right now I think the only hope of JC giving up the leadership is to lose an election. That may allow the warring factions to reconcile (wishful thinking obviously) and rebuild. Unfortunately though it looks like this is going to drag on til 2020 😯

It does make me laugh that, on the one hand, Corbyn is somehow being portrayed as being anti-Israel, and therefore directly supporting the destruction of millions of Jews, and yet, on the other hand, is apparently some kind of hand-wringing softy. How that squares up in the minds of some is baffling.

Missed this. Godwin and out…

Missed this. Godwin and out…

Yup. Its heading that way, so….

I don’t know – you are the one with the problem.

Indeed it is deeply problematic having no attachment to a party in disarray.

Is using the term civil war also evidence of a “disturbed” mind ?

Yes covered that several pages earlier. Its merely a shambles, and a self inflicted on at that, further exaggeration not required and quite insulting to those suffering from the effects of real coups and/or civil wars.

Not sure if that counts?

Had a leaflet off Corbyn this morning. “Jeremy Corbyn Winning Values”

Lots of agreeable content.

Had a picture of Clive Lewis on the back. The man has a lovely face.

Once again, it’s not so much his policies, but just that he’s really a bit second-rate as a leader:

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/aug/19/corbyns-leadership-unprofessional-and-shoddy-says-heidi-alexander

<insert usual “Guardian have been against JC since the beginning” comments here>.

johnx2 – Member

I was saying he should be better prepared to answer these sorts of questions.

I think you hve hit the nail on the head there – it’s about giving the “correct” answer. Owen Smith easily passed the test by giving the correct answer, ie, “Yes I would attack Russia”, it’s what a professional politician is expected to say.

Corbyn isn’t like that though, he doesn’t think “now wait, what answer will get me a few more votes”, instead he offers what he considers to be the best commonsense response with little consideration to how it might be interpreted or misinterpreted.

And that is precisely why some people like him and want him to be leader of the Labour Party and why some people are strongly opposed to him.

Who is right remains to be seen. There is no doubt that the slick well rehearsed PR researched answers delivered in a slick well rehearsed manner, as we have come to expect from professional politicians, is highly effective.

But it is also true that there is a massively growing weariness among the general population of self-serving and discredited professional politicians who can’t be trusted, not even with their own expenses. Far more than might previously have been the case.

Corbyn offers an alternative to the Tory-Labour-LibDem drearily predictable political clones. Is the electorate, despite all the complaining and moaning, ready for this change? I don’t know, possibly not. But I do know that greater honesty with less emphases on cheap political shots, soundbites, managed presentations, etc, is a step in the right direction.

I also know that Corbyn would not have stood a chance of becoming Labour leader 5 or 10 years ago. It is obvious that changes are occurring in politics, and not just UK politics. What no one quite knows is has much change has occurred, and at what pace it is occurring.

But Alexander clearly has a problem 😉

Alexander writes: “I wasn’t part of a plot. I wasn’t part of a coup. I had tried hard to make it work. A leader who had been willing to engage, support, take difficult decisions and able to build a team might have made it work. But we didn’t have one, and in Jeremy Corbyn, as much as it pains me to say it, we never will.”

Instead just basic lack of competence for the job

Alexander writes: “I loved being the shadow health secretary but I hated being part of the shadow cabinet … I hated being part of something so inept, so unprofessional, so shoddy.”….Corbyn would regularly defer to his shadow chancellor, John McDonnell, in meetings, and sometimes read from a typed script. “I saw first-hand 10 months of dysfunctional opposition and a Labour party let down the people it is meant to represent,” she writes.

Still coup sounds so much more dramatic than just crap at the job!

Right now I think the only hope of JC giving up the leadership is to lose an election.

I doubt he would quit even then; As in his mind he would still have the mandate of the Labour party, and he doesn’t seem that interested in actually running anything just making slogans and pandering to the protest vote.

JC is a godsend to the Tories as most moderate people won’t vote for him.

Alexander writes: “I loved being the shadow health secretary but I hated being part of the shadow cabinet … I hated being part of something so inept, so unprofessional, so shoddy.”….Corbyn would regularly defer to his shadow chancellor, John McDonnell, in meetings, and sometimes read from a typed script. “I saw first-hand 10 months of dysfunctional opposition and a Labour party let down the people it is meant to represent,” she writes.

I don’t see what’s wrong with ‘deferring’ to his Shadow Chancellor- isn’t he supposed to surround himself with strong people, skilled in what they do? Is it weak to change your mind based on your trusted advisers?

And I suspect ‘reading from a typed script’ is the same thing as a previous boss of mine used to do: he’d jot down thoughts while on the train, on the bog, on wherever, and read them out at meetings for soundings.

See, we’re getting confused here over what I think is one of Corbyn’s strengths: he seems to not be the archetypal authority figure we seem to associate with ‘leadership’. This isn’t media leadership and sounds like effective teamwork.

And maybe Alexander just couldn’t cut it.

This line from the Guardian link above speaks volumes:

A source close to McDonnell said his attendance at the (NHS) picket line had been discussed with Alexander’s team in advance. “It wasn’t about undermining her, it was about keeping her honest.”

And maybe Alexander just couldn’t cut it

She was not alone 😀

She was not alone

So true THM, so true, and I hope you’ll take my point: there are more leadership styles than autocratic Thatcheresque ones- you as a business-person I’m sure must know that there are times when you alone have to call it, and times when you have to listen and consider.

People leave when they don’t like jobs and how they’re managed, and I suspect Alexander just couldn’t adapt to that- same for others. It doesn’t mean Corbyn is ineffective, it could equally mean that they’re inflexible.

It also indicates to me that for far too long the LP has been ‘managed’ by ‘strong’ individuals with a very autocratic style- we knew that from the Blair books- and the current crop have ‘grown up’ expecting this. This way seem alien to them.

There are many different sytles true and I agree that delegation/deferring is not as sign of weakness and is often a sign of strength. But if she (and any other “traitor”) is to be believed this is not the case here. Jezza is simply not up to the job. Perhaps that is why he didn’t want the job in the first place?

Not really that difficult though is it?

Alexander writes: “I wasn’t part of a plot. I wasn’t part of a coup”

Don’t they all say that ?

Which are the ones who claim to be part of a plot or coup then…….can anyone name them ? It would be fascinating to know.

Claiming they were not part of a plot to remove Corbyn does not prove that there was no plot to remove Corbyn. There clearly was.

The Daily Telegraph even reported the planned coup a fortnight before it was launched :

Labour rebels hope to topple Jeremy Corbyn in 24-hour blitz after EU referendum

“Asked how the coup could take place, another said: “Things go wrong, people have had enough, you start to see resignations and it spirals from there.”[/b]

Note the use of the word “coup” by the Daily Telegraph THM, even before it was launched. It’s a standard English term, something which someone who purports to have some sort of university degree ought to know.

And I would add: believed is the operative word in this.

But if she (and any other “traitor”) is to be believed[/i] this is not the case here.

Jezza is simply not up to the job

You read it as a stream of principled, disillusioned politicians reporting back from the battlefield about the Fleld Marshalls broken tactics, I read it as a bunch of careerist Blairites scared for their failed careers.

Which of us is right?

One thing a university education teaches you Ernie is to understand the source. Papers exaggerate, increasingly so. And the Torygraph as you have noted several times has been in Corbyn overdrive for some time.

But if talk of a coup makes you feel better, carry on. This whole episode has been about avoiding reality after all.

Cody, I used the term believed deliberately – see response to Ernie about recognising source – but when the bunch becomes almost the whole vineyard, the balance of probability tends to point you in one direction.

More importantly, opinion polls “suggest” that the great British public are siding her way too. Still who cares about them???

We ignore all reports, even opinion polls, at our peril THM, and I was of course aware that you used term with intent. You’re precise with language I’ve found. But we must always ask the question: who is asking this question, and why? All our media is owned by someone, and that someone wants something, and so-

Anyway:

Could be you’re right, and its an honourable consensus being reached within the LP, with principled individuals feeling that they can’t operate under Corbyn any more.

But there again, I might be right- its just some vacuous aggrieved Blairites who aren’t gonna make the big time.

But if talk of a coup makes you feel better, carry on.

Thank you that’s most kind but I have every intention of doing so anyway – it’s you who’s got a problem with it and keeps bringing it up.

I’m sure the Daily Telegraph and all the other news providers who freely use the term would be equally delighted to hear of your generosity.

But we must always ask the question: who is asking this question, and why? All our media is owned by someone, and that someone wants something

Agreed ( plus the quality of our broadsheets is definitely deteriorating )

FWIW as I said before I think that the notion of Blairite, like its better known predecessor, rarely holds up to actual scrutiny. But an easy (some might say lazy) tag to apply.

Thank you that’s most kind

It’s a pleasure, these are tough times for you and we like to show solidarity with fellow forumites in their time of need.

THM………You’re precise with language I’ve found.

There must be two THMs on here, only one of which I can apparently see.

The myopia* explained?!?

(less precise use of term this time 😉 )