Perhaps if governments lowered taxes in our rich countries by cutting out wasteful and unnecessary spending then charitable donations would increase. The US for example donates twice as much as a percentage of GDP to charity than the UK does.
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Is it just me?
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Posted 1 year ago #
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There isn't a solution to human nature that I'm aware of but perhaps a little perspective is called for.
Also perhaps if we spent a bit less effort robbing poorer nations we'd be a bit safer too, fair price for their goods, open trade agreements, sensibly implmented joint development schemes and so on.
But then if we did that someone would bleat about the fact that their aspargus tips were costing a fortune or that the price of petrol was extortion.
Posted 1 year ago # -
LHS - Member
Whats the solution then?
Cut unnecessary spending on things like Trident, Aircraft Carriers, war in afghanistan, and give all the money to poor countries instead?
I'd share it around a bit wider but yes
As for the USA and charity. I think it stinks to high heaven that in such a rich country many many people rely on charity to eat and that their child mortality rates are so high.
Its incredibly demeaning.
Posted 1 year ago # -
TJ, you obviously have some serious prejudice / hostility towards americans so now we have established that shall we all move on?
Posted 1 year ago # -
you obviously have some serious prejudice / hostility towards americans
so it's prejudice to consider a country to be behaving badly ? I've liked many Americans I've met, but en masse they don't seem to act very sensibly
Posted 1 year ago # -
He (TJ) makes a fair point though. Those hit worst by Katrina could have easily been in any 'third world' country.
According to the calculator I get £375 back, which as a pretty high earning middle (well, southern ;-)) Englander I find a bit difficult to understand, I was expecting to get hit pretty hard.
Posted 1 year ago # -
You think it is reasonable that people should rely on charity to eat?
That a rich country should have child mortality rates like an impoverished 3rd world county?
That a country with 5% of the worlds population should produce 25% of the worlds greenhouse gases and refuse to sign up to agreements to do anything about it?
Thats 30% of the population has no effective access to healthcare?
That if you are poor and chronically ill you will die of preventable diseases?
That they attempted to patent bismati rice exactly as grown in India for centuries and then try to charge the Indians for using the rice they have since before white man arrived in north America using the threat of a trade war unless they do?As SFB says I have no problem with individual Americans but as a nation I hate what they do.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Same could be said of the english?
We have the same level of people living below the poverty line as Americans do.
Infant mortality rates in the UK are 0.48/1000 in the US it is 0.63/1000
Iceland is only 0.29/1000. Makes us look pretty bad heh? - 22nd worst country in the world behind South Korea and Israel!We give half of wha the US give to Charity as a percentage of GDP. We really are a dispicable nation!
Posted 1 year ago # -
And to that rant can be undermining democratic governments by force of arms - done for decades all over south america. Latest being attempts to depose Chavez who like him or loathe him has a clear democratic mandate. relected twice with massive majorities in free and fair elections.
Posted 1 year ago # -
LHS - no one in the UK relies on charity to eat. Everyone gets enough money to eke out a living
None here dies of because they can't afford medical treatments
Posted 1 year ago # -
Young couple with five young children, shes a fulltime Mum and they have a 'combined income' of 25k a year. Well thats how their income was described by the reporter.
They were complaining that they'd only be £645 better off a year and how are they going to cope with all the nappy costs etc etc.
My comment to the TV screen was 'well stop having soo many kids then'? We'd like to have two, **** fat chance though as we're careful and worry about the future. Idiots.
Posted 1 year ago # -
TJ much as I see your position re the states, we all have blood on our hands in the West.
If I may quote a memorable line from a recent block buster, "look at all that cheddar - Ha"
If we want it we take it and screw anyone who gets in the way.
Posted 1 year ago # -
The indications are that you will be £3236.5 worse off.
Oh goody!
Posted 1 year ago # -
accepted joolsburger.
Posted 1 year ago # -
I pay taxes in both the UK and the US. 40% and 50% tax rates plus 20% on top of all that on everything you buy, IMPO, is a joke. Thats before you've looked at the council tax, petrol prices and capital gains tax.
We only tax 40 and 50% on the very highest earners (something like 5% and 1% isn't it?). Which seems fair enough. I mean you'll still have more than half of your 100k or more a year, and there's only so many yachts and sportscars a man needs.
Joe
Posted 1 year ago # -
LHS - no one in the UK relies on charity to eat. Everyone gets enough money to eke out a living
Yes they do. Not to the same extent as in the US tho.
As SFB says I have no problem with individual Americans but as a nation I hate what they do.
TJ - this is really important: No-one does anything as a nation. Governments do things; business rooted in those countries do things; countries have certain political, economic or social cultures. But inappropriate use of the word THEY is terribly damaging.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Molgrips, you are wasting your breath, TJ has worked long and hard on his mis-guided prejudices over the years and isn't about to change anything now!
Posted 1 year ago # -
TJ has worked long and hard on his mis-guided prejudices over the years and isn't about to change anything now!
i actually think that TJ is usually pretty accepting of, if not in agreement with, a well thought out counter argument. He also does pretty well in not responding to petty insults from people with an opposing view.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Point taken molgrips.
Thanks yossarian.Posted 1 year ago # -
LHS - of all the insulting, infantile, and contemptuous comments you levelled at TJ, the one which grabbed my attention the most was this one :
LHS - Member
TJ, you seem to have a reputation of being an argumentative fool on here so I don't see the need to rise to your silly remarks.
It really did make me chuckle that you should accuse TJ of making "silly remarks" after you yourself, had claimed the UK has a high level of taxation, which according to you, is a "joke"
The UK does not have a high tax burden. In fact the tax burden in the UK is not even at the average level for comparable countries.
Indeed the UK tax burden is below the average for the 27 Member States of the European Union.
So, bearing in mind that it would be factually correct to claim the UK has a "low level of taxation", your remark can hardly be described as anything other than just "silly".
From the European Commission's Eurostat, not Wikipedia or the Guardian - which apparently you dislike :
Posted 1 year ago # -
Ernie, my post was directed at TJ when he told me to f*ck off - not exactly high-brow debating skills so why i called it silly. If you disagree then that is fine. I'm also not a fan of prejudiced, ill-informed rants about particular nations. Call me crazy but I don't. Sorry.
You are entitled to your opinion however I personally think that the tax burden to income in the UK is extremely high. If you look at comparable jobs throughout the EU and US, you will find that wage levels are infact a lot higher outside the UK. Cost of living is a lot less, just take a look at the CPI figures for the UK compared to our neighbours. For the level of taxation we have inside the UK i would expect a lot more for my money rather than a government who wastes money at every opportunity they get, one of the largest deficits out there and a failing healthcare and pension system.
When you then start looking at the high rate of sales tax, Council tax, fuel tax, aviation tax, corporation tax, capital gains tax which aren't included in those figures then it paints a much bigger picture.
Having lived and been a taxpayer in 3 other european countries as well as the US I like to think I am entitled to an opinion on this.
Posted 1 year ago # -
so my rant against the USA - what of that is wrong and ill informed?
Add to that rant arming both sides in wars.
AS for
When you then start looking at the high rate of sales tax, Council tax, fuel tax, aviation tax, corporation tax, capital gains tax which aren't included in those figures then it paints a much bigger picture.
All that is included in those figures. Wage levels are comparable as is spending power in the other EU nations. You simply are wrong on this. However the fact you are wedded to the neo con agenda and have swallowed the propaganda wholesale means you are blind to this
ernie and I have given you referenced data that show that the UK is a low tax economy. You have no evidence to refute this just your baseless assertions
so here is your challenge. Get some figures that stand up to scrutiny that show that UK is high tax in comparison to similar counties including healthcare costs
and also prove that what I dislike about the USA is wrongPosted 1 year ago # -
TJ, I know this seems like a cop-out but I don't really see the point in arguing with you on this.
The cost of goods, council tax, fuel, etc etc is NOT included in any of that, as I said quite a few posts ago I feel it would be better to just move on and agree to disagree and maybe one day you will experience living in another country.
edi:
Add to that rant arming both sides in wars
You need to include the UK in that one.
Posted 1 year ago # -
LHS
Its the total tax take as a % of GDP. TOTAL TAX TAKE That is all the taxes national and local.
So basically you have no data to show that you are right - just your baseless assertions. You say I am wrong but you cannot show I am wrong in any way
Enjoy living in your fantasy world won't you.
Posted 1 year ago # -
I will, it seems a LOT better than where you're at.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Posted 1 year ago #
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When you then start looking at the high rate of sales tax, Council tax, fuel tax, aviation tax, corporation tax, capital gains tax which aren't included in those figures then it paints a much bigger picture.
Aren't included ? My Eurostat link included all taxes. If you are going to comment, then it might be worth actually clicking on the link
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You are entitled to your opinion however I personally think that the tax burden to income in the UK is extremely high.
I am not expressing an "opinion" .........pointing out that 36.3% is a smaller amount than 37.5% is providing you with facts - not an opinion.
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I'm also not a fan of prejudiced, ill-informed rants about particular nations.
And yet you appear to be perfectly happy in providing a prejudiced, ill-informed rant, about the tax burden in the UK
Posted 1 year ago # -
did you read those two articles?
so full of flaws they are meaningless.
Just drivel.
In the first its after income tax incomes in the Uk compared to costs in the other countries.
So if the other countries have higher direct and lower indirect taxation as in the case of germany this is what you would expect.
The second is just income tax ignoring the effects of indirect taxation
Neither takes into account fluctuations in currency values - the # has massively devalued over the last year
What those articles are is the Neocon propaganda I thought you believed. neither is a rigorous and valid bit of data
Now can we have some independednt rigourous and valid data please rather than those completely meaningless bits of propaganda
Posted 1 year ago # -
LOL.
Ok ok, so you believe the data you want to!!!
As i said, lets agree to disagree - something you seem to find hard to do it seems!
ernie, you just seem to have turned up for an argument so not sure how bored you are or what your issue is but probably best to just jog on.
Posted 1 year ago # -
ernie, you just seem to have turned up for an argument so not sure how bored you are ......probably best to just jog on
Well yes, I was fairly bored ......... that's why I chose to point out the absurdity of you claiming that the UK has a high level of taxation (which apparently is a "joke") and then you accusing TJ of making "silly remarks".
But no, I didn't expect an argument........it never occurred to me that you would challenge factual evidence.
Nor did I expect you to make moronic comments such as, "When you then start looking at the high rate of sales tax, Council tax, fuel tax, aviation tax, corporation tax, capital gains tax which aren't included in those figures then it paints a much bigger picture." despite the fact they were all included in "those figures".
Neither did it occur to me that anyone would be so daft as to challenge the internationally recognised method of expressing the tax burden, ie, as percentage of GDP.
You clearly thought that you could contemptuously dismiss TJ's points concerning your false claims, through patronising and condescending ridicule, with remarks such as "TJ, you seem to have a reputation of being an argumentative fool on here so I don't see the need to rise to your silly remarks"
And you presumably thought you could do the same to me with your "probably best to just jog on" comment.
Unfortunately for you, firstly you are clearly ill-informed, and therefore incapable of providing a coherent argument. And secondly, I'm also quite handy at dishing out the patronising and condescending ridicule too.
Posted 1 year ago # -
I'm also quite handy at dishing out the patronising and condescending ridicule too
Says it all really.
When you are ready to join the rest of the adults let us know.
Posted 1 year ago # -
When you are ready to join the rest of the adults let us know
Oh dear, poor .........so poor
I would like to think that any attempt by me at the ol' "patronising and condescending ridicule", is to a somewhat higher standard than that ..........I'm sure it is
Posted 1 year ago # -
*applause for ernie*
LHS - you have no coherent argument, no data , no logic in your position. You cotinue to assert your position is true despite facts showing it is not.
Please let us know when you have some evidence and are ready to join the adults. The adults who back up their assertions with evidence, logic and facts.
Now I have huge arguments with many rightwingers - both on here and in real life. Those like CFH who back up their position with evidence, facts and logical argument I can respect ( if not agree with). Those like you who have no evidence nor logic to their positions and who when are shown to be in an untenable position resort to childish insults get nothing but my contempt.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Now I have huge arguments with many rightwingers - both on here and in real life
I'm not sure you'd describe discussions with me as "huge arguments" - then again I'm not sure I'd describe myself as a "rightwinger". I'm certainly distinctly to the right of TJ and Ernie though, and it's noteworthy when we agree on a thread like this. Hence I'd like to point out that I agree with both of them on this issue.Posted 1 year ago # -
aracer -Ta
I seem to remember a debate or two but rarely sinking into personal insults and usually with some logic and facts from both sides
Posted 1 year ago #
Topic Closed
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