• This topic has 121 replies, 38 voices, and was last updated 13 years ago by juan.
Viewing 40 posts - 81 through 120 (of 122 total)
  • Is it just me?
  • hora
    Free Member

    Young couple with five young children, shes a fulltime Mum and they have a 'combined income' of 25k a year. Well thats how their income was described by the reporter.

    They were complaining that they'd only be £645 better off a year and how are they going to cope with all the nappy costs etc etc.

    My comment to the TV screen was 'well stop having soo many kids then'? We'd like to have two, **** fat chance though as we're careful and worry about the future. Idiots.

    joolsburger
    Free Member

    TJ much as I see your position re the states, we all have blood on our hands in the West.

    If I may quote a memorable line from a recent block buster, "look at all that cheddar – Ha"

    If we want it we take it and screw anyone who gets in the way.

    nickf
    Free Member

    The indications are that you will be £3236.5 worse off.

    Oh goody!

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    TandemJeremy
    Free Member

    accepted joolsburger.

    joemarshall
    Free Member

    I pay taxes in both the UK and the US. 40% and 50% tax rates plus 20% on top of all that on everything you buy, IMPO, is a joke. Thats before you've looked at the council tax, petrol prices and capital gains tax.

    We only tax 40 and 50% on the very highest earners (something like 5% and 1% isn't it?). Which seems fair enough. I mean you'll still have more than half of your 100k or more a year, and there's only so many yachts and sportscars a man needs.

    Joe

    molgrips
    Free Member

    LHS – no one in the UK relies on charity to eat. Everyone gets enough money to eke out a living

    Yes they do. Not to the same extent as in the US tho.

    As SFB says I have no problem with individual Americans but as a nation I hate what they do.

    TJ – this is really important: No-one does anything as a nation. Governments do things; business rooted in those countries do things; countries have certain political, economic or social cultures. But inappropriate use of the word THEY is terribly damaging.

    LHS
    Free Member

    Molgrips, you are wasting your breath, TJ has worked long and hard on his mis-guided prejudices over the years and isn't about to change anything now!

    yossarian
    Free Member

    TJ has worked long and hard on his mis-guided prejudices over the years and isn't about to change anything now!

    i actually think that TJ is usually pretty accepting of, if not in agreement with, a well thought out counter argument. He also does pretty well in not responding to petty insults from people with an opposing view.

    TandemJeremy
    Free Member

    Point taken molgrips.
    Thanks yossarian.

    ernie_lynch
    Free Member

    LHS – of all the insulting, infantile, and contemptuous comments you levelled at TJ, the one which grabbed my attention the most was this one :

    LHS – Member

    TJ, you seem to have a reputation of being an argumentative fool on here so I don't see the need to rise to your silly remarks.

    It really did make me chuckle that you should accuse TJ of making "silly remarks" after you yourself, had claimed the UK has a high level of taxation, which according to you, is a "joke" 😀

    The UK does not have a high tax burden. In fact the tax burden in the UK is not even at the average level for comparable countries.

    Indeed the UK tax burden is below the average for the 27 Member States of the European Union.

    So, bearing in mind that it would be factually correct to claim the UK has a "low level of taxation", your remark can hardly be described as anything other than just "silly".

    From the European Commission's Eurostat, not Wikipedia or the Guardian – which apparently you dislike :

    In 2007, the United Kingdom tax-to-GDP ratio (including social security contributions) stood at 36.3 %, a value that remains below the EU-27 average (37.5 %)

    LHS
    Free Member

    Ernie, my post was directed at TJ when he told me to f*ck off – not exactly high-brow debating skills so why i called it silly. If you disagree then that is fine. I'm also not a fan of prejudiced, ill-informed rants about particular nations. Call me crazy but I don't. Sorry.

    You are entitled to your opinion however I personally think that the tax burden to income in the UK is extremely high. If you look at comparable jobs throughout the EU and US, you will find that wage levels are infact a lot higher outside the UK. Cost of living is a lot less, just take a look at the CPI figures for the UK compared to our neighbours. For the level of taxation we have inside the UK i would expect a lot more for my money rather than a government who wastes money at every opportunity they get, one of the largest deficits out there and a failing healthcare and pension system.

    When you then start looking at the high rate of sales tax, Council tax, fuel tax, aviation tax, corporation tax, capital gains tax which aren't included in those figures then it paints a much bigger picture.

    Having lived and been a taxpayer in 3 other european countries as well as the US I like to think I am entitled to an opinion on this.

    TandemJeremy
    Free Member

    so my rant against the USA – what of that is wrong and ill informed?

    Add to that rant arming both sides in wars.

    AS for

    When you then start looking at the high rate of sales tax, Council tax, fuel tax, aviation tax, corporation tax, capital gains tax which aren't included in those figures then it paints a much bigger picture.

    All that is included in those figures. Wage levels are comparable as is spending power in the other EU nations. You simply are wrong on this. However the fact you are wedded to the neo con agenda and have swallowed the propaganda wholesale means you are blind to this

    ernie and I have given you referenced data that show that the UK is a low tax economy. You have no evidence to refute this just your baseless assertions

    so here is your challenge. Get some figures that stand up to scrutiny that show that UK is high tax in comparison to similar counties including healthcare costs
    and also prove that what I dislike about the USA is wrong

    LHS
    Free Member

    TJ, I know this seems like a cop-out but I don't really see the point in arguing with you on this.

    The cost of goods, council tax, fuel, etc etc is NOT included in any of that, as I said quite a few posts ago I feel it would be better to just move on and agree to disagree and maybe one day you will experience living in another country.

    edi:

    Add to that rant arming both sides in wars

    You need to include the UK in that one.

    TandemJeremy
    Free Member

    LHS

    Its the total tax take as a % of GDP. TOTAL TAX TAKE That is all the taxes national and local.

    So basically you have no data to show that you are right – just your baseless assertions. You say I am wrong but you cannot show I am wrong in any way

    Enjoy living in your fantasy world won't you.

    LHS
    Free Member

    I will, it seems a LOT better than where you're at. 😯

    LHS
    Free Member

    Interesting articles…..

    Expensive UK

    More expensive

    ernie_lynch
    Free Member

    When you then start looking at the high rate of sales tax, Council tax, fuel tax, aviation tax, corporation tax, capital gains tax which aren't included in those figures then it paints a much bigger picture.

    😕 Aren't included ? My Eurostat link included all taxes.

    If you are going to comment, then it might be worth actually clicking on the link 💡

    .

    You are entitled to your opinion however I personally think that the tax burden to income in the UK is extremely high.

    I am not expressing an "opinion" ………pointing out that 36.3% is a smaller amount than 37.5% is providing you with facts – not an opinion.

    .

    I'm also not a fan of prejudiced, ill-informed rants about particular nations.

    And yet you appear to be perfectly happy in providing a prejudiced, ill-informed rant, about the tax burden in the UK 😐

    TandemJeremy
    Free Member

    did you read those two articles?

    so full of flaws they are meaningless.

    Just drivel.

    In the first its after income tax incomes in the Uk compared to costs in the other countries.

    So if the other countries have higher direct and lower indirect taxation as in the case of germany this is what you would expect.

    The second is just income tax ignoring the effects of indirect taxation

    Neither takes into account fluctuations in currency values – the # has massively devalued over the last year

    What those articles are is the Neocon propaganda I thought you believed. neither is a rigorous and valid bit of data

    Now can we have some independednt rigourous and valid data please rather than those completely meaningless bits of propaganda

    LHS
    Free Member

    LOL.

    Ok ok, so you believe the data you want to!!!

    As i said, lets agree to disagree – something you seem to find hard to do it seems!

    ernie, you just seem to have turned up for an argument so not sure how bored you are or what your issue is but probably best to just jog on.

    ernie_lynch
    Free Member

    ernie, you just seem to have turned up for an argument so not sure how bored you are ……probably best to just jog on

    Well yes, I was fairly bored ……… that's why I chose to point out the absurdity of you claiming that the UK has a high level of taxation (which apparently is a "joke") and then you accusing TJ of making "silly remarks".

    But no, I didn't expect an argument……..it never occurred to me that you would challenge factual evidence.

    Nor did I expect you to make moronic comments such as, "When you then start looking at the high rate of sales tax, Council tax, fuel tax, aviation tax, corporation tax, capital gains tax which aren't included in those figures then it paints a much bigger picture." despite the fact they were all included in "those figures".

    Neither did it occur to me that anyone would be so daft as to challenge the internationally recognised method of expressing the tax burden, ie, as percentage of GDP.

    You clearly thought that you could contemptuously dismiss TJ's points concerning your false claims, through patronising and condescending ridicule, with remarks such as "TJ, you seem to have a reputation of being an argumentative fool on here so I don't see the need to rise to your silly remarks"

    And you presumably thought you could do the same to me with your "probably best to just jog on" comment.

    Unfortunately for you, firstly you are clearly ill-informed, and therefore incapable of providing a coherent argument. And secondly, I'm also quite handy at dishing out the patronising and condescending ridicule too.

    LHS
    Free Member

    I'm also quite handy at dishing out the patronising and condescending ridicule too

    Says it all really. 😯

    When you are ready to join the rest of the adults let us know. 😐

    ernie_lynch
    Free Member

    When you are ready to join the rest of the adults let us know

    Oh dear, poor ………so poor 😐

    I would like to think that any attempt by me at the ol' "patronising and condescending ridicule", is to a somewhat higher standard than that ……….I'm sure it is 😉

    TandemJeremy
    Free Member

    *applause for ernie*

    LHS – you have no coherent argument, no data , no logic in your position. You cotinue to assert your position is true despite facts showing it is not.

    Please let us know when you have some evidence and are ready to join the adults. The adults who back up their assertions with evidence, logic and facts.

    Now I have huge arguments with many rightwingers – both on here and in real life. Those like CFH who back up their position with evidence, facts and logical argument I can respect ( if not agree with). Those like you who have no evidence nor logic to their positions and who when are shown to be in an untenable position resort to childish insults get nothing but my contempt.

    aracer
    Free Member

    Now I have huge arguments with many rightwingers – both on here and in real life

    I'm not sure you'd describe discussions with me as "huge arguments" – then again I'm not sure I'd describe myself as a "rightwinger". I'm certainly distinctly to the right of TJ and Ernie though, and it's noteworthy when we agree on a thread like this. Hence I'd like to point out that I agree with both of them on this issue.

    TandemJeremy
    Free Member

    aracer -Ta

    I seem to remember a debate or two but rarely sinking into personal insults and usually with some logic and facts from both sides

    LHS
    Free Member

    TJ,

    You come of all high and mighty yet were the person on here to tell me to bluntly f*ck off and then go on a prejudiced rant against a whole nation.

    Bizarre!

    As far as taxation goes you haven't listened to a thing I have said so there is no point continuing.

    You are not taking into consideration the cost of living, corporation taxes, taxable benefits, the basic cost of goods, services etc.

    The UK has in comparison to a lot of countries a very high cost of living. Coupled with that a high tax regime the article i posted earlier is correct.

    I currently pay taxes and claim taxable allowances in two countries, in the past in 3 others and so in comparison to yourself have the benefit of having experienced this and i can say, from 20 years experience of being a tax payer that the UK has a high tax burden, high cost of living, and therefore is an expensive place to live.

    I understand that no one will ever change your point of view, just like on the motorbike thread so hence why this thread probably should have stopped 20 odd posts ago.

    ernie, you just seem to have turned up for an argument so not sure how bored you are or what your issue is but probably best to just jog on

    TandemJeremy
    Free Member

    LHS

    However you have not been able to show that any of my criticisms of the USA are incorrect

    The FACTS on tax are that the UK is below the EC average on tax take which includes the things you mention

    Cost of living in relation to salaries is roughly similar.

    You have not been able to produce one shed of evidence to support your position. Conversely my position is supported by much evidence.

    so when you rant on about high taxation in the face of the facts and are unable to show any credible evidence to support your position you simply look foolish. Assertion is not evidence

    The Fact Remains teh UK has a low tax burden and prices in relation to salaries are around average.

    TandemJeremy
    Free Member

    Here is some Data on cost of living comparisons
    http://www.mercer.com/costoflivingpr#top_50
    London in 16th ( and we all know London is signifcantly more expensive that the rest of the UK)
    Cheaper that milan, Paris, Oslo, New York

    I can find the same sorts of data for salaries – the fist I found had UK in 7th place worldwide for IT professionals salaries for example

    However as this data does not suit your preconceived prejudices I am sure you will reject it as your experience must be more valid than reliable rigorous data collected by independent sources

    LHS
    Free Member

    London is significantly more expensive than the rest of the UK – agreed, but also the other capital cities Paris, New York etc are significantly more expensive than the rest of France, US etc.

    Look at Munich, Frankfurt and Berlin for example – 47th, 48th and 49th.

    Also, if you take a look at the cost of living index from a standard basket of shopping goods view, London comes out as the most expensive city.

    As a good example of wages, if you chose to be a nurse in the US your salary would be in the region of 75% more, your tax burden 10% less and your cost of living significantly less too.

    TandemJeremy
    Free Member

    Also, if you take a look at the cost of living index from a standard basket of shopping goods view, London comes out as the most expensive city.

    Reference?

    Germany is cheaper to live in yes – I don't doubt that. However the tax burden is significantly higher. so your actual spending power is not significantly different. Higher tax burden and you then pay for your healthcare on top. I will agree germany you are better off on the whole.

    Your USA comparison – you keep falling into the same trap. 28% tax take does not include healthcare. Add in the 16% of gdp that healthcare costs there and its more expensive than the UK.

    so in Germany you would be marginally better off, in France worse.

    Seems reasonable – the UK is roughly mid table in Europe for these things. Not high tax unless you consider all of Europe to be high tax and Uk is significantly lower tax than Germany.

    TandemJeremy
    Free Member

    LHS – Member

    …………………..
    I understand that no one will ever change your point of view, just like on the motorbike thread so hence why this thread probably should have stopped 20 odd posts ago.

    Which motorcycle thread? Were you the fool that wanted the same bike to tour, commute and ride motocross on? That thought an armstrong had 50 bhp and would fulfil all 3 roles?

    hilldodger
    Free Member

    So who's going to give their budget gains to a charitable casue then…

    …thought not 😆

    aracer
    Free Member

    So who's going to give their budget gains to a charitable casue then…

    I will when I earn as much in real terms as I did 5 years ago. Reckon I'm safe for a long time with that one.

    LHS
    Free Member

    TJ i was referring to the one where you professed that the fast motorcyclists you see are safer than everyone else. 😯

    LHS
    Free Member

    So who's going to give their budget gains to a charitable casue then…

    Not that it really matters who does what on here but my wife and I donate 15% plus 2 weeks each a year to our nominated charities.

    TandemJeremy
    Free Member

    LHS – Member

    TJ i was referring to the one where you professed that the fast motorcyclists you see are safer than everyone else.

    Ah. Not quite what I said but hey ho. Apologies for mixing you up with someone else then.

    juan
    Free Member

    Just a stupid question, if UK, Greece, France and so stop giving money back to the bank what is gonig to happen?
    Well nowt, I can't see Mr barcklay or Mr BNP knock Downing street or à l'elysée and ask for their money back.

    LHS
    Free Member

    In summary it will be the end of the world!

    aracer
    Free Member

    if UK, Greece, France and so stop giving money back to the bank what is gonig to happen?

    The bank won't give them any more money. They may have a slight problem with that, given the ~£160 billion a year the UK needs to borrow to balance the books.

    ernie_lynch
    Free Member

    LHS – Member

    As a good example of wages, if you chose to be a nurse in the US your salary would be in the region of 75% more……..

    🙂 So unable to provide a shred of evidence to back up your claim that the UK has an above average tax burden, you decide instead, to change the subject and talk about wages.

    And yet, your original rant didn't start off with "The level of tax wages in the UK is a joke",

    But of course it shouldn't be surprising that wages in the US are higher, it is after all the wealthiest nation on earth – and US companies control a substantial part of the world's economy.

    Despite that however, 12% of the American population live in poverty – as was so starkly illustrated when Hurricane Katrina hit New Orleans.

    Many of the citizens of New Orleans were abandoned and left to die, because in spite of being given plenty of warning about an immanent hurricane, and living in a major city in the world's wealthiest country, many of New Orleans residents can neither afford to buy or run a car, and were therefore unable to escape.

    That shouldn't however come as any great surprise, as poverty is one of the consequences of a low tax burden. Countries which have "extremely high" tax burdens, as you call it, such as Norway and Sweden, have practically no poverty.

    Of course the conclusions you arrive to concerning international tax burdens and wages, are not actually based on any known "facts"……..just "hunches" and the "I've been there, so I know" evidence.

    Because if anyone actually looks at the known facts, they will see that the UK actually compares fairly favourably with many other simular countries, as far as per capita GDP is concerned. It certainly ranks above Germany, France, Italy, Spain, Japan, and the EU average.

    .

    ernie, you just seem to have turned up for an argument so not sure how bored you are or what your issue is but probably best to just jog on

    Twice you have posted that comment. And still I won't "jog on".

    So what issue have I got ? Well ….. you weren't very nice to TJ, I think you're bit of a wally, and I find challenging you not only rather amusing, but also ridiculously easy 😉

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