The level of tax in the UK is a joke
too high or too low?
High.
Based on what, LHS?
Too low you mean?
You see all those nice european counties with high standards of living and good services - they pay more tax than we do - especially when you consider that for most of them their healthcare is not paid out of tax.
If you want a low tax economy f off to the states - where people rely on charity to eat and where child mortality rates are distinctly third world
I want to live in a civilized society where the sick the old and the disabled are treated well.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tax_revenue_as_percentage_of_GDP
I pay taxes in both the UK and the US. 40% and 50% tax rates plus 20% on top of all that on everything you buy, IMPO, is a joke. Thats before you've looked at the council tax, petrol prices and capital gains tax.
TJ, i wouldn't read everything you see in the Guardian.
LHS - go to the states and stay there then.
Look at that list of countries and their tax rates and remember that healthcare ( around 10% of gdp) is totally funded from taxation here - so is included in the figure for the Uk whereas in other countries healthcare costs are on top of taxation.
Then look at what countries have good service and low levels of poverty . Note the correlation.
So I suggest if you want low tax then go to the states and stay there
LHS, why is it a joke? It's what we need to run the country. Are you suggesting we should stick to an arbitrary figure that 'seems about right' and then deal with that? Maybe Osborne and co would love to hear that idea.
We pay more than the US but they have smaller govt. We pay much less than many places in Europe. Can't complain about that really.
TJ, you seem to have a reputation of being an argumentative fool on here so I don't see the need to rise to your silly remarks.
I have lived in a few european countries as well as the states and canada. What you fail to take into consideration is the level of earnings compared to taxation.
It's what we need to run the country
Is it? Or is waste and unnecessary spending so radically high that we are having to compensate for it?
I wouldn't use tax rates in the US evil empire as any measure of quality, it's well on the way to becoming a 3rd world country except for the rich 🙁
USA 28% of gdp. But healthcare there is 16% of gdp almost all funded on top of tax - So total including healthcare is around 40+% of GDP
UK 39% including healthcare
Germnany 40.5% only part funding healthcare
France 46% funding most healthcare
High tax in the UK - don't buy the neocon propaganda
LHS - which is why the % of GDP is a good indication. We are a low tax economy no matter how you want to look at it. The numbers don't lie.
Not sure what bubble you are living in but we are not a low tax economy.
We are a high tax, low wage economy. Cost of living here is phenomenal.
But, to save you the bother, this is IMPO and I will leave it there because I have seen some of your threads before and I think it will be better to agree to disagree.
So those number are just made up? Despite the respected sources credited on the WIKI page that clearly show that the UK pays less tax than most comparable countries?
Its hard isnt it when the facts don't match your propaganda.
Got any facts that match your daft ideas?
Okay TJ what taxes would you like to see raised and how many of them will directly affect [i]your[/i] income?
I would like to see a massive alteration the way we pay tax. A mix of very progressive income taxes and high carbon taxes. a couple of % points of GDP rise is plenty.
I'd like to see a 20:1 ratio of earnings in every organisation as well - the highest earner cannot earn more than 20 times the lowest - pro rata.
Tax evasion costs the UK £100bn a year
But they're cutting HMRC budgets....
TJ I am assuming you have never lived in a different country apart from the UK?
I am not sure i would trust those wiki figures, especially as they are under doubt for neutrality.
You need to consider a lot more than what you are narrowly looking at.
Income Tax
National Insurance
Council Tax
VAT / Sales Tax
Fuel Tax
Cost of Living indexs - CPI, Housing cost, rental cost etc
Average wage / Household income
Non taxable allowances
All included in those figures. They are the total tax take as a % of gdp
Inflation indexes are irrelevant to % of tax
However they don't include healthcare when it is not taxfunded so to get a fair comparison you need to take that into account.
I have family in the netherlands where they pay significantly more tax than we do. My brother in law was the sole earner in a family of 4. He paid more tax on the same income as I did as a single man - then had to pay for healthcare on top.
All included in those figures.
I wouldn't trust Wiki on that to be honest.
I take it from your response YOU haven't lived in a different country before?
Read the methodology.
[i]I'd like to see a 20:1 ratio of earnings in every organisation as well - the highest earner cannot earn more than 20 times the lowest - pro rata. [/i]
That'll never happen. Why would you want to cap earnings??
Why would you want to cap earnings??
no need, just shoe* them instead 🙂
*ie limit the lowest level
I live in a nice house in a safe place by world standards, my shops are full of food at reasonable prices, electricty, gas and water are delivered to my house, my kids are educated by exceptionally good people in a safe and healthy environment. A few weeks ago I dislocated my collarbone in an act that was completely my fault, the hospital saw, x rayed, treated and discharged me in less than an hour and a half. I have a great transport network and can cross my country in a few hours in my car. There is a regular train service to anywhere I might need to go if I want it. I have access to low cost international air travel and take my holidays in the sun if I want to. By any definition my circumstances are a gift.
Do I pay too much tax or feel ripped off, no, not in comparison to this.
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But then I know I'm enormously lucky and a few quid more doesn't make me that much happier. I'm one of those crazy bastards who'd happily pay more and does. What petty minded people we have become in this country.
I pay too much tax -- boo ****ing hoo
£70 better off for me, which I find a bit of a joke being a middle earner.
Why not just up the flat rate of tax by 1p??
agree with everything joolsburger said
🙁
Whats the solution then?
Cut unnecessary spending on things like Trident, Aircraft Carriers, war in afghanistan, and give all the money to poor countries instead?
Perhaps if governments lowered taxes in our rich countries by cutting out wasteful and unnecessary spending then charitable donations would increase. The US for example donates twice as much as a percentage of GDP to charity than the UK does.
There isn't a solution to human nature that I'm aware of but perhaps a little perspective is called for.
Also perhaps if we spent a bit less effort robbing poorer nations we'd be a bit safer too, fair price for their goods, open trade agreements, sensibly implmented joint development schemes and so on.
But then if we did that someone would bleat about the fact that their aspargus tips were costing a fortune or that the price of petrol was extortion.
LHS - MemberWhats the solution then?
Cut unnecessary spending on things like Trident, Aircraft Carriers, war in afghanistan, and give all the money to poor countries instead?
I'd share it around a bit wider but yes
As for the USA and charity. I think it stinks to high heaven that in such a rich country many many people rely on charity to eat and that their child mortality rates are so high.
Its incredibly demeaning.
TJ, you obviously have some serious prejudice / hostility towards americans so now we have established that shall we all move on? 😯
you obviously have some serious prejudice / hostility towards americans
so it's prejudice to consider a country to be behaving badly ? I've liked many Americans I've met, but en masse they don't seem to act very sensibly 🙁
He (TJ) makes a fair point though. Those hit worst by Katrina could have easily been in any 'third world' country.
According to the calculator I get £375 back, which as a pretty high earning middle (well, southern ;-)) Englander I find a bit difficult to understand, I was expecting to get hit pretty hard.
You think it is reasonable that people should rely on charity to eat?
That a rich country should have child mortality rates like an impoverished 3rd world county?
That a country with 5% of the worlds population should produce 25% of the worlds greenhouse gases and refuse to sign up to agreements to do anything about it?
Thats 30% of the population has no effective access to healthcare?
That if you are poor and chronically ill you will die of preventable diseases?
That they attempted to patent bismati rice exactly as grown in India for centuries and then try to charge the Indians for using the rice they have since before white man arrived in north America using the threat of a trade war unless they do?
As SFB says I have no problem with individual Americans but as a nation I hate what they do.
Same could be said of the english?
We have the same level of people living below the poverty line as Americans do.
Infant mortality rates in the UK are 0.48/1000 in the US it is 0.63/1000
Iceland is only 0.29/1000. Makes us look pretty bad heh? - 22nd worst country in the world behind South Korea and Israel!
We give half of wha the US give to Charity as a percentage of GDP. We really are a dispicable nation!
And to that rant can be undermining democratic governments by force of arms - done for decades all over south america. Latest being attempts to depose Chavez who like him or loathe him has a clear democratic mandate. relected twice with massive majorities in free and fair elections.
LHS - no one in the UK relies on charity to eat. Everyone gets enough money to eke out a living
None here dies of because they can't afford medical treatments
Young couple with five young children, shes a fulltime Mum and they have a 'combined income' of 25k a year. Well thats how their income was described by the reporter.
They were complaining that they'd only be £645 better off a year and how are they going to cope with all the nappy costs etc etc.
My comment to the TV screen was 'well stop having soo many kids then'? We'd like to have two, ****ing fat chance though as we're careful and worry about the future. Idiots.
TJ much as I see your position re the states, we all have blood on our hands in the West.
If I may quote a memorable line from a recent block buster, "look at all that cheddar - Ha"
If we want it we take it and screw anyone who gets in the way.
The indications are that you will be £3236.5 worse off.
Oh goody!
accepted joolsburger.
I pay taxes in both the UK and the US. 40% and 50% tax rates plus 20% on top of all that on everything you buy, IMPO, is a joke. Thats before you've looked at the council tax, petrol prices and capital gains tax.
We only tax 40 and 50% on the very highest earners (something like 5% and 1% isn't it?). Which seems fair enough. I mean you'll still have more than half of your 100k or more a year, and there's only so many yachts and sportscars a man needs.
Joe
LHS - no one in the UK relies on charity to eat. Everyone gets enough money to eke out a living
Yes they do. Not to the same extent as in the US tho.
As SFB says I have no problem with individual Americans but as a nation I hate what they do.
TJ - this is really important: No-one does anything as a nation. Governments do things; business rooted in those countries do things; countries have certain political, economic or social cultures. But inappropriate use of the word THEY is terribly damaging.
Molgrips, you are wasting your breath, TJ has worked long and hard on his mis-guided prejudices over the years and isn't about to change anything now!
TJ has worked long and hard on his mis-guided prejudices over the years and isn't about to change anything now!
i actually think that TJ is usually pretty accepting of, if not in agreement with, a well thought out counter argument. He also does pretty well in not responding to petty insults from people with an opposing view.
Point taken molgrips.
Thanks yossarian.
LHS - of all the insulting, infantile, and contemptuous comments you levelled at TJ, the one which grabbed my attention the most was this one :
LHS - MemberTJ, you seem to have a reputation of being an argumentative fool on here so I don't see the need to rise to your silly remarks.
It really did make me chuckle that you should accuse TJ of making [i]"silly remarks"[/i] after you yourself, had claimed the UK has a high level of taxation, which according to you, is a "joke" 😀
The UK does not have a high tax burden. In fact the tax burden in the UK is not even at the average level for comparable countries.
Indeed the UK tax burden is [u][b][i]below[/i][/b][/u] the average for the 27 Member States of the European Union.
So, bearing in mind that it would be [i]factually correct[/i] to claim the UK has a "low level of taxation", your remark can hardly be described as anything other than just "silly".
From the European Commission's Eurostat, not Wikipedia or the Guardian - which apparently you dislike :
[url= http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/resources/documents/taxation/gen_info/economic_analysis/tax_structures/2009/country/uk.pdf ]In 2007, the United Kingdom tax-to-GDP ratio (including social security contributions) stood at 36.3 %, a value that remains below the EU-27 average (37.5 %)[/url]