The IDF are NOT doing in Gaza with what the Waffen SS did in Oradour and Tulle in 1944
But if it wasn't for the TV cameras and the aid agencies and the bloggers, you know they would be
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IDF is not the Waffen SS
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Posted 3 years ago #
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Another "yawn" response?
Yawn!
Posted 3 years ago # -
Another "yawn" response?
i feel so frustrated and angry about the situation I can hardly bear to read about it
Posted 3 years ago # -
Then don't.......
Posted 3 years ago # -
Then don't.......
but ignorance is no excuse
Posted 3 years ago # -
i feel so frustrated and angry about the situation I can hardly bear to read about it
Nor can I - which is why I try to make sense of it by looking to history for some sort of comparisons
Posted 3 years ago # -
Looking to history?
In that case you might as well go back to the time of Moses, if there is such person ... don't ask me I don't know, now that is history?
You see in the end they are just brothers & sisters beating each other up.
Posted 3 years ago # -
I'm not sure if you've been to Oradour or know much about it but it's definitely not the same thing. The systematic murder of an entire town is not the same as a cavalier attitude towards civilian casualties. It's slightly more similar to Tulle but it's still not quite like the IDF is executing prisoners is it?
I'm no fan of the IDF but you're pushing the boundaries to suggest they're up there with the perpetrators of these atrocities in WW2.
Posted 3 years ago # -
you might as well go back to the time of Moses
Moses was an Arab.
Posted 3 years ago # -
Sorry, I just wanted to say something of absolutely no importance.
Posted 3 years ago # -
I thought he was a Hebrew. But then again, technically, I guess he was Egyptian by birth/geography. Like Michael Owen is Welsh
Posted 3 years ago # -
ernie_lynch:"Moses was an Arab."
So what's wrong with that? Who got his birth certificate?
"Sorry, I just wanted to say something of absolutely no importance.
Why apologise? In fact there were many "tribes" or races in those days. Just like the present day Jew from Ethiopia.
hhhhmmm ... your argument is weak.
Posted 3 years ago # -
your argument is weak.
I didn't even realise that I was arguing.
........ things must be getting serious
Posted 3 years ago # -
ernie_lynch:
"I didn't even realise that I was arguing. ........ things must be getting serious
Still weak serious or not.
Ha ha!
Posted 3 years ago # -
A little more than "a cavalier attitude to civilian casualties" :
August 9th 1948 - here is an extract which can be verified from the Haaratz newspaper ..
'I saw fit to remove her from the world'
By Aviv Lavie and Moshe Gorali
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.At about 6 A.M. the next day, Private Eliahu was on guard duty and saw the abducted girl leaving the hut. He asked her where she was going and she told him, weeping, that she wanted to see the officer. Private Eliahu showed her the way to Officer Moshe's tent. She complained to him that the soldiers had "played with her." He threatened to kill her and sent her back to the hut. A short time later, while shaving at the water pipe, Sergeant Michael asked the platoon commander what to do with her. Officer Moshe ordered him to execute the girl.
Posted 3 years ago # -
You want to see crime against humanity or civilians' slaughter, you go to Auschwitz Birkenau. When you compare the atrocities of WW2 to Gaza 2009 you'll see your comparing Jews to SS sucks.
There are plenty of well-educated people here, but sadly Britons' knowledge of history, even the recent one, is generally poor if it didn't involve you directly. It means you are great talking about the BoB but not so about the Eastern Front. C'mon guys, google the subject before making such comments.
Have a look here for some pics from AB by Strykowski (website in Polish, but the photos speak a universal language). They might be disturbing, mind.
BTW In no way do I support, morally or otherwise, violent actions against civilians.Posted 3 years ago # -
Rightly or wrongly, the IDF are effectively fighting a war, and, strangely enough, in war, innocent civilians get killed and maimed in horrific ways - it's happening in Iraq, Afghanistan, Northern Ireland, Vietnam, ....Wars of the Roses.....Norman Conquest....Roman invasion.....etc etc
It's a terrible thing, it always has been. But it is not the same as the atrocities committed by the SS that have been mentioned.
Posted 3 years ago # -
August 9th 1948 - here is an extract which can be verified from the Haaratz newspaper ..
'I saw fit to remove her from the world'
By Aviv Lavie and Moshe Gorali
Isolated atrocities are not the same as systematic destruction of communities. I'm not defending the IDF at all and if you'd brought up Sabra and Chatila, well, their part in that is every bit as bad as some of the things that happened in the war. I was suggesting that their recent behaviour didn't compare to that of the SS rather than they've always been this way.
Posted 3 years ago # -
I can see your point, but to compare the IDF to the Waffen SS is a bit of a sweeping statement. Particular divisions of the SS were more directly involved in atrocities than others and the Wehrmacht also have very, very dirty hands....something it suited the Allies to gloss over.
Of course it's worth noting that as the war plodded along the SS attracted all sorts of non-German soldiers who wanted to settle old scores.
As an impartial observer all I see when I look at the current conflict in Gaza is the blood letting that's always gone on in that region. The civilian casualties are appalling but until the US actually tells Israel to stop, we all know that they'll carry on regardless.
But while Israel has a big brother to kick her into line, who's going to kick the Palestinians into line?
Posted 3 years ago # -
but it's still not quite like the IDF is executing prisoners is it?
Yes, but directing fire in a UN compound where they know there are children (because the UN told them this) is more or less the same thing, as if directing another 30 civilians to go into a house, and then shelling the same house.
Whilst I have sympathy with the plight of Israel, the tactics they are employing in Gaza leave little room for any other interpretation, other than the attempted destruction of another group of people
Posted 3 years ago # -
The Gazza strip is surely one beautiful strip of real estate. Think of it as the last piece in the Israeli jigsaw. Look at the map. Solution? Push the nuisances into the fellow Arab country...
Posted 3 years ago # -
Sadly, hora has a point, insofar as the 1948 borders of Israel were not terribly defensible or logical. The seizure of the golan Heights in particular looks very necessary for the defence of Israel, and the two state solution is much harder while the putativer Palestian territory is non-contiguous.
However, the problem is not going to be "solved" by pushing the Palestinians out of all the territory claimed by Israel. I can say this with confidence, as that is precisely the genesis of the problem and doing it more is not going to achieve anything.
In 1948, it was widely believed that there was no "palestine" as such, and that the people displaced by the Jewish state would simply drift across the various borders into Syria, Lebanon, Egypt etc. This didn't happen. In part because the palestinian movement got some traction and created a credible palestinian people and a genuine polity with an agenda, who attracted a certain amount fo attention and sympathy, and partly because it suited neighbouring arab governments to keep populations of palestinian refugees camped on the borders so that they could stoke up nationalistic sentiment that helped their regimes on the back of evidence of the perfidy of the jews.
Today, those forces are stronger than ever, although much of the arab sentiment is overtly islamic rather than vintage pseudo nationalist klepto- socialism.
Wherever Israel puts its borders, and wherever it chooses to draw its defensive lines, as long as it displaces a growing number of poor, angry people who are easy to manipulate for the polticial ends of leaders in the arab world attacks on Israel will just carry on to the best of the ability of its enemies (always limited, increasingly feeble).
Posted 3 years ago # -
Push the nuisances into the fellow Arab country...
That is clearly the Israeli tactic, and I suspect that if we look at a map of the Middle East in 100 years or so we will see that they achieve exactly that, and that the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians is just as much a footnote in history as, say, the Armenians in Turkey. That is, at the end of the day, the pile of shit we call "the human race".
Posted 3 years ago # -
I suspect that if we look at a map of the Middle East in 100 years or so we will see that they achieve exactly that
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I very much doubt it. The Israeli State has been in a more or less a permanent state of war since it was first created 60 years ago. There is nothing to suggest it can ever exist under any other conditions. Conditions which I am not convinced are sustainable for another 100 years..
Up until now Israeli causalities have always been completely insignificant. Still American or Russian Jews will immigrate to live a life filled with comfort and sunshine in Israel, Hamas rockets or no Hamas rockets - even though of course, they face no persecution whatsoever in their own countries..
This cannot last forever. The Israeli State will always be situated in the same corner of the world, surrounded by enemies - it cannot change the geography of the world. The American backed Arab dictatorships such as Saudi Arabia and Egypt which sit back and do nothing whilst Palestinians are being slaughtered in complete defiance of their own citizens, cannot last forever - their days are numbered..
The United States which alone, guarantees the support that is vital for the Israeli State's continued existence is a waning power. With every year that passes it's power and influence diminishes, and in a 100 years time the US will be a mere shadow of what it once was - surrounded as it will be, by new super powers..
Furthermore, whilst the Israeli State enjoyed huge global support in the early years, world opinion has now undergone massive changes - more and more it has turned against Israel. Who would have thought 10 or 20 years ago that the leader of a major British political party would be calling for 'the immediate suspension of British arms exports to Israel' ?.
And of course the Israeli State's present day enemies are growing stronger. Hamas might still be weak, but Hezbollah has showed what armed resistance can achieve when it drove the Israelis out of Lebanon. The children which survive the Israeli slaughter today, will be the Hamas fighters of tomorrow..
Today on the BBC I heard a LibDem MP who is in Gaza at the moment (can't remember his name) say that when he went into the shelters during Israeli air raids, all the young Palestinian children in there made the V for victory sign - they are Hamas fighters in the making..
The time will come when the Israelis for the first time ever, start to sustain heavy casualties. When that time comes, leaving Brooklyn New York to go and live on land stolen from the Palestinians, won't seem such a good idea after all. The writing will be on the wall for the Israeli State. I doubt that it will take more than a 100 years..
Like the Apartheid State, the Israeli State will become nothing more than a subject for history lessons. Let's just hope that it's democratic governments which help the Palestinian people reclaim their land, and not Al-Qaeda.Posted 3 years ago # -
This cannot last forever. The Israeli State will always be situated in the same corner of the world, surrounded by enemies - it cannot change the geography of the world. The American backed Arab dictatorships such as Saudi Arabia and Egypt which sit back and do nothing whilst Palestinians are being slaughtered, in complete defiance of their own citizens, cannot last forever - their days are numbered.
At the push of a button Israel could light up its neighbours. As long as its neighbours don't get nukes it'll stay exactly where it is. As for Al-Queda? They're history.Posted 3 years ago # -
At the push of a button......
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Nuclear weapons did not save the Apartheid State. Nor did all the other advance weapons which they had. Even though they thought that they would..
As long as its neighbours don't get nukes
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That's a very long "as long as" ............ nuclear weapons are 1940s technology..
Pakistan, a country which Al-Queda has it's sights on, has nuclear weapons.Posted 3 years ago #
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