The UN, human rights watch and I imagine, most palestinians living in the Gaza strip still consider them an occupying power

Actually @scaled. If you looked at a map of Gaza 10 years 5/10 years ago, you would find that Israel Occupied it. They’ve since dismantled the settlements in Gaza and moved out. Did it help bring peace? – Hamas are now more aggressive than ever.

When are they going to remove ALL of the illegal settlements, stop bulldozing homes and denying people water? Might be a start for achieving peace.

I’m waiting for them to blow up the homes of the youths arrested for the murder of the Palestinian lad just now. I suspect I may be in for a long wait …

When are they going to remove ALL of the illegal settlements, stop bulldozing homes and denying people water? Might be a start for achieving peace.

And not just peace in Palestine. If the US had been even-handed in its treatment of the Palestinians, I suspect Al Qaeda would have trouble finding volunteers to stuff envelopes, let alone blow themselves up.

There is no credible alternative theory.

As I said the kidnap and murder was designed by the Palestinians Israeli’s to create a military conflict. The Isreali’s have the more powerful military so the consequences are predictable.

FTFY. Much more credible this way.

When are they going to remove ALL of the illegal settlements, stop bulldozing homes and denying people water? Might be a start for achieving peace.

Israeli operation to as an excuse to ‘overreact’ and start an orchestrated chain of events leading to the occupation and eventual full Jewish settlement of both Gaza and the West Bank. There would then be no more houses to bulldoze or land to grab. I have no doubt Hamas would also create their own ‘martyrs’ if it was advantageous to their cause.

I suspect I may be in for a long wait

you would have a long wait for them to knock them unconscious then beta them senseless never mind do a [ illegal] “collective punishment” on their family.

Its a **** mess there and no mistake

Israeli solution is to permanently keep them on their knees with intermittent invading to kick the shit out of them when they are on their knees. it will never lead to peace though it may be maintained permanently

I’m not confused the world is confused as always the media portrays the Israelis as the bad guys…whats new about that…

That’s the opposite of the truth. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28222613

Hamas are firing ineffectual rockets killing no-one, and Israel – a military superpower – is using jet fighters to murder school children. Do you think the BBC headline is fair and balanced?

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jul/09/israel-renewed-hamas-attack-bbc-balance-palestinian

ransos – Member

I’m not confused the world is confused as always the media portrays the Israelis as the bad guys…whats new about that…

That’s the opposite of the truth. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28222613

Hamas are firing ineffectual rockets killing no-one, and Israel – a military superpower – is using jet fighters to murder school children. Do you think the BBC headline is fair and balanced?

What should they do then ?

Murdering children…move them to a safe place…cant do that cos hamas hide out in the schools…fact

What should they do then ?

Negotiate a fair peace agreement. End of conflict. Simple.

unfitgeezer – Member

Murdering children…move them to a safe place…cant do that cos hamas hide out in the schools…fact

How about a safe place like a UN compound? Oh hang on…

To answer the OP:

a) They do, but they don’t give a shit because…

b) They’re mates with the US who have enough power to make these problems go away so as a result…

c) No one has the balls to actually sort them out.

Welcome to the depressing world of geopolitics and vested interests.

Slightly OT – Can someone post a link to the really rather clever thread where a forumite told a story of his allotment being messed with and his reaction to it?

I won’t spoil the ending, but I think it’s worth a read.

More on topic – the Jews were persecuted and bullied for years. Now it seems they have become more the bully in response…..

Public opinion in the world is – and has been for a while – moving away from Israel.
There’ll come a tipping point when they’ll change their ways, its hard to see it right now but I hope that they’ll go the way South Africa had to and find a different way to co-exist.
I hope to see that but wouldn’t hold my breath waiting, the onus is on Israel to make it happen and for the rest of us to make them make it happen.

Easier said than done to negotiate peace with a party who wants to destroy you.

Funny how this never makes the UK press until Israel has had enough and reacts to the hundreds of rockets from Gaza.
UN is deafeningly silent too.

Also no one mentions the great big effing wall by Gaza built by Egypt, only the Israeli wall gets spoken about.

Easier said than done to negotiate peace with a party who wants to destroy you.

Your enemies are the ones that you need to negotiate with. That’s how negotiation works.

@gonzy re facebook – the murder of the three teenagers has hardened a lot of attitudes. Tolerence right now is non-existent.

What is happening now was absolutely predictable, it is exactly what the Palestinians who murdered the three teenagers wanted.

@DrJ I find your post quite offensive

I’m not going to contribute anything further.

Exactly , Hamas have no intention of doing so. Just refer to their charter.

There’ll come a tipping point when they’ll change their ways, its hard to see it right now but I hope that they’ll go the way South Africa had to and find a different way to co-exist.

Ironically you have linked South Africa and Israel there, which reminds me of a very good example of how power corrupts.

In the mid 70s (only 30-odd years after the holocaust) there was top level government collusion on nuclear weapons between these two pariah states. This despite the fact that Vorster, the south African president, was interned during the second world war for openly showing Nazi sympathies. I don’t think he ever rescinded these views.

It seems that expediency can often be relied upon to usurp principles when it comes to power and wealth…….

Exactly , Hamas have no intention of doing so. Just refer to their charter.

All that could change overnight if the Israelis offered an honest deal. Bear in mind that Hamas are only popular because of the failure of PLO and Fatah to obtain anything via negotiation. Israel created this situation and could end it if they wanted to.

@DrJ I find your post quite offensive

I’m not going to contribute anything further.

Can’t come up with a counter-argument – flounces.

Read up a little more in Hamas before offering such comments. They won’t stop until Israel doesn’t exist.

And of course it’s not as if we have members of the Israeli parliament calling for genocide against the Palestinians and receiving mass public support. Oh…

Israeli Lawmaker’s Call for Genocide of Palestinians Gets Thousands of Facebook Likes

Also no one mentions the great big effing wall by Gaza built by Egypt, only the Israeli wall gets spoken about.

IIRC egypt built it on their land with US funding and it is is only 6 miles long and it is to keep terrorists out of egypt rather than to grab land. Perhaps its because it is nothing like the Israel one that no one mentions it.
Shall we discuss the egypt Israel barrier next? at a mere 245 miles?

Hamas are but one group what you need to do is let them see that peace is better than war and then they are less popular with their supporters. Could you see Mc Guiness meeting the queen – being a leader in N ireland? would he have said he would have done this publicly initially

Dont get me wrong they are not helping

As N ireland shows you need the “waring” sides to talk to each other and work together.

This is all very depressing.

As an Israeli Jew living in Israel I would like to make some personal observations about this thread, and about the current situation.

I am not a spokesman for the Israeli government and speak only for myself.

It is very popular to pin labels to people, like “The Israelis”, “The Palestinians”, etc. This is a gross simplification which just serves to dehumanize both “sides”. I work and socialize with Arab friends every day, some of whom are Israeli citizens, and some are Stateless Palestinians. I feel no hatred whatsoever towards Palestinians, Arabs, Moslems, or whoever and refuse to let the current unrest an insanity taint my relationship with them, although others would disagree.

Kidnapping and murdering three Israeli teenagers is wrong, even if I have a strong dislike of the political settler movement from which they came.

Kidnapping and burning alive a 15 year old Palestinian boy is a sickening atrocity.

The people who perpetrated these acts are fuelled by the same hatred, and perversely serve the same goals.

These crimes were not done by “The Israelis”, or “The Palestinians”, but by bitter and twisted individuals.

The border police who brutally beat the other child whilst in custody were in Israeli uniform, and I hope their punishment will be all the more severe because of it. (Although this may not turn out to be the case).

As for Israel being attacked with rockets from Gaza, any country would defend itself by attacking back, and in the context of war innocent people always suffer. I am sure that those responsible for those attacks are aware of this, and that this poses no serious military threat to Israel. Incidentally, these rockets do sometimes kill Jews and Arabs, and cause significant disruption.

I would suggest that these acts are motivated by the same idiotic desire to perpetuate the hatred and mistrust, and ensure that this mess just goes on ad infinitum.

There are obviously real and deep issues between our peoples, which need addressing in a sane and logical manner, which means putting aside all the point scoring on both sides. Sadly there seems to little chance of this. Certainly not on this forum too.

Paul Friedman

As for Israel being attacked with rockets from Gaza, any country would defend itself by attacking back, and in the context of war innocent people always suffer.

This is true. So ask yourself if a) the response is proportionate and b) if it is likely to bring about peace.

They won’t stop until Israel doesn’t exist.

The destruction of Israel and its replacement with a democratic Palestine is by far the most morally acceptable solution imo.

There is no justification whatsoever for a British Jew such as Dame Shirley Porter, for example, to own land and/or live in Palestine. Whatever the Germans did in Europe 70 years ago.

I would like Israel to become an unpleasant memory in the dustbin of history, like Apartheid South Africa.

@nim: Maybe read up a bit yourself …

“With its takeover of Gaza after the 1967 war with Egypt, Israel hunted down secular Palestinian Liberation Organization factions, but dropped the previous Egyptian rulers’ harsh restrictions against Islamic activists.[19] In fact, Israel for many years tolerated and at times encouraged Islamic activists and groups as a counterweight to the secular nationalists of the PLO and its dominant faction, Fatah

Among the activists benefited was Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, leader of the Muslim Brotherhood in Gaza, who had also formed the Islamist group Mujama al-Islamiya, a charity recognized by Israel in 1979. Israel allowed the organization to build mosques, clubs, schools, and a library in Gaza.[19]”

What should they do then ?

Murdering children…move them to a safe place…cant do that cos hamas hide out in the schools…fact

They should stop murdering children. Decades of history tells us that the only workable solution is to negotiate a peaceful settlement.

@DrJ I find your post quite offensive

@jambalaya – I’m sorry you’re offended, but you will get over it. These children, killed by those you defend, will not.

ezrider/Paul

Thanks for an interesting and thoughtful post.

Latest estimate at 43 dead and 300+ injured since Sunday.

Do we think the Palestinian people have learned their collective lesson yet?

Do we think the Palestinian people have learned their collective lesson yet?

Which lesson is that? That they live next door to a bunch of psychopaths? I think they learned that a long time ago. That if they keep quiet in their slums, everything will turn out nice? No, I don’t think they have much faith in that.

The Charter identified Hamas as theMuslim Brotherhood in Palestine and declares its members to be Muslims who “fear God and raise the banner of Jihad in the face of the oppressors.” The charter states that “our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious” and calls for the eventual creation of an Islamic state in Palestine, in place of Israel and the Palestinian Territories,[2] and the obliteration or dissolution of Israel.[3][4] The charter also states that Hamas is humanistic, and tolerant of other religions as long as they “stop disputing the sovereignty of Islam in this region”.[5] The Charter adds that “renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion” of Islam.[1]

Ideal partners for peace

ernie_lynch – Member

I would like Israel to become an unpleasant memory in the dustbin of history, like Apartheid South Africa.

Are you sure you mean this ? Its a pretty big statement to make.

Do you hate jews ?

Ideal partners for peace

Gee, I wonder why they have popular support…

Ideal partners for peace

You’re missing the point. Firstly, Hamas was created with Israel’s help. Secondly, if Israel shows an honest approach to negotiation then Hamas’ hard line will not have any support. Thirdly, you don’t get to choose who you negotiate with.

Sorry – that’s three points you missed.

Do you hate jews ?

the classic fall-back – ‘oh you disagree that the state of israel is a positive influence in the middle east? you must hate jews’

FFS that is low blow even for here:roll:
Did he hate white people for saying that about South Africa?

No he respects fairness and justice rather than hate anyone.
As for the rest he will be able to articulate his views clearly enough that he does not need my help but he is in no way shape or form a racist or Jew hater 🙄

Do you hate jews ?

Yes of course – anyone who disagrees with Israel is automatically a jew-hater. Jeeez.