Viewing 40 posts - 31,721 through 31,760 (of 77,140 total)
  • EU Referendum – are you in or out?
  • teamhurtmore
    Free Member

    What is your point? persisiting with an inaccurate analogy adds neither value nor clarity to the debate and lacks the humour of the boycott to sabotage proposal

    mattyfez
    Full Member

    Go home THM, that attitude is of no help to anybody.

    teamhurtmore
    Free Member

    Neither is making things up/complexity missing the point (deliberately or otherwise) – as you both are doing. Traditionally that is left to Brexshiteers. They are much better at it too.

    kelvin
    Full Member

    It really is very simple, other than the details.

    > rolls eyes <

    piemonster
    Full Member

    But I don’t understand what you want, THM

    For his investment to pay off?

    DrJ
    Full Member

    The clock is ticking as the EU well know so their Penelope tactic (pace Varoufakis) is highly effective, and our counter move of not showing up is looking a bit foolish.

    Unfortunately we want everything the EU have to offer, but need to pretend to want none of it. Tricky. We have allowed ourselves to be sucked into futile discussion on issues that could have been settled – the obvious example being the question of EU nationals. We could agree to do the right thing, it would cost nothing and we could move on. Instead we are hamstrung by xenophobia (as we now refer to it).

    Of course the matter is not helped that the man in charge is The Grinning Idiot and his boss is so incompetent that they need a new word for incompetent. All going swimmingly then.

    mrmo
    Free Member

    The only issue is what is on the slate and how that balances with the credit that has also been supplied to “the club”.

    Which should be solvable in a couple of hours! The EU has a number in mind, the UK should also have a number in mind, both should have an idea of what they regard as fair, pensions, assets, etc. Discuss, compromise and move on. Of all the discussion points it really is one of the easiest to deal with.

    That the UK seems so inept on this point does not bode well for anyother issue.

    binners
    Full Member
    kimbers
    Full Member

    That the UK seems so inept on this point does not bode well for anyother issue.

    Not inept, as such, just terrified of admitting it in public, in fear of their own swivel eyed MPs & voting brexies who’ve bought into the BS

    mrmo
    Free Member

    Not inept, as such, just terrified of admitting it in public, in fear of their own swivel eyed MPs & voting brexies who’ve bought into the BS

    It is their job. If they cant do it then they should resign.

    teamhurtmore
    Free Member

    The clock is ticking as the EU well know so their Penelope tactic (pace Varoufakis) is highly effective

    Wait and see – brinkmanship can work both ways. But they are doing a great job at setting the narrative and fooling many Brits, that’s true. The German CBI are less convinced, indeed rather worried about their sides tactics. They are not alone.

    and our counter move of not showing up is looking a bit foolish.

    True or made up?

    Unfortunately we want everything the EU have to offer,

    No we don’t and never had. We have always wanted to cherry pick and we want to do the same now. They don’t like that unsurprisingly.

    We have allowed ourselves to be sucked into futile discussion on issues that could have been settled – the obvious example being the question of EU nationals. We could agree to do the right thing, it would cost nothing and we could move on. Instead we are hamstrung by xenophobia (as we now refer to it).

    Yes and no. The media and many remoaners have swallowed the EUs opening gambit on sequencing. The UK rejected this and then acquiesced partially. The sensible and appropriate measure would be to have a bilateral agreement on the rights of nations’ citizens – that would be easy, agreed.. Given the history of economic and social vandalism that the EU has bought to bear elsewhere, unilateral demonstrations of doing the so-called “right thing” would be folly in the extreme. The U.K. Gov’s first priority should be to protect the rights of UK citizens. Bending over and being rogered by the EU is an abrogation of this responsibility and should neither be encouraged nor advocated.

    jambalaya
    Free Member

    Nissan announce increased Sunderland production amd a desire to substantially increase local sourcing of components. Mitigates the risk of tariffs and takes advantage of cheaper production costs associatwd with lower £.

    Perfect sunmary from yesterday’s Spectator

    Every round of UK-EU talks reminds us why the European Union has never managed to agree any trade deal with any of its biggest trade partners. Putting posturing before diplomacy is the EU’s great vice. At times, the officials in Brussels seem to judge success by how many times they can be rude to the British side, as if chiding them for respecting the results of a democratic referendum.

    kelvin
    Full Member

    No posturing on the UK side, of course.

    Edukator
    Free Member

    Given the history of economic and social vandalism that the EU ultra liberal right has bought to bear

    The U.K. Gov’s first priority should be to protect the rights of UK citizens.

    The good news last night was that a good friend received her new French identity card in the post on Saturday. She’s now a French citizen, and delighted that she can carry on her life as she pleases.

    DrJ
    Full Member

    The sensible and appropriate measure would be to have a bilateral agreement on the rights of nations’ citizens – that would be easy, agreed.. Given the history of economic and social vandalism that the EU has bought to bear elsewhere, unilateral demonstrations of doing the so-called “right thing” would be folly in the extreme. The U.K. Gov’s first priority should be to protect the rights of UK citizens. Bending over and being rogered by the EU is an abrogation of this responsibility and should neither be encouraged nor advocated

    The right thing is the right thing. Nothing to stop the UK govt also protecting the rights of UK citizens as well – it doesn’t have to be a reciprocal right thing.

    teamhurtmore
    Free Member

    The “lets swallow the EU’s financial demands up front” camp should step back and think (only three seconds required) what the financial implications for other EU nations of the UK withdrawal are and then imagine what their opening stance represents. Actuall only 1 second is required, if that….

    Glad for your friend. Let’s hope we can say the same thing for UK citizens too. Any examples of an ultra liberal right country in Europe – among the major nations, out of interest?

    Nothing to stop the UK govt also protecting the rights of UK citizens as well – it doesn’t have to be a reciprocal right thing

    With friends like this, who needs enemies?

    Don’t forget who we are dealing with here. A body that is happy to create social and economic havoc on its own members for the same of political vanity.

    Edukator
    Free Member

    The UK currently, THM.

    Does anybody know any EU citizens living in the UK who have been granted a UK passport having applied on hearing the referendum result? Anyhow I have one concrete example of French authorities doing the right thing.

    jambalaya
    Free Member

    @tmh the EU’s stance is obvious. They are truly desperate for money and know the only way they have any chance of getting us to pay money we don’t legally owe is to try and force a climb down ahead of any trade discussions.

    Edukator
    Free Member

    Best start climbing down now then, there won’t be as far to fall.

    jambalaya
    Free Member

    Edukator applications for UK passports from EU citizens have doubled. I imagine the workload is substantial to process them. The UK has made a very generous offer to them but the EU has simply insulted it (and them). EU citizens living in the UK have no chance of being under the jurisdiction of the ECJ. It’s a ludicrous request from the EU

    I do feel for Dutch citizens who are unable to aplly for a Uk passport without giving up their Dutch one. Daft rule from the Dutch

    igm
    Full Member

    EU’s offer to UK citizens was better though Jamba wasn’t it.

    The UK has also terminated the permanent right to stay of any EU citizens who already held it. Told them to apply again – under some rules yet to be agreed.

    kimbers
    Full Member

    Seems to be costing several grand to get UK residency/passport for some of my EU colleagues, shambolic lack of clarity from UK gov having major effect.
    More than 50% of eu scientists at our place are leaving 2 leaving dos this week! A French & a German, German has got a short contract in UK, but her & hubby plan to return to Germany when h is contact is up.
    French last is taking her English hubby back to France & he’s gonna apply to live there.

    Brexit achieving the goals of the little Englanders nicely !

    mrmo
    Free Member

    The “lets swallow the EU’s financial demands up front” camp should step back and think (only three seconds required) what the financial implications for other EU nations of the UK withdrawal are and then imagine what their opening stance represents. Actuall only 1 second is required, if that….

    So what is the UK response? There must be a formula that the UK are happy to accept, they have had months to get to this point agreed? It is quite simple, the UK will either cover x or they won’t. Exact sums involved will come out later. The fact that the UK is incapable of answering a very simple question points to the incompitence of the brexiteers and there cheer leaders.

    You broke it fix you can fix it, you know what you want and you said it was oh so simple.

    mrmo
    Free Member

    The U.K. Gov’s first priority should be to protect the rights of UK citizens

    Which is why they denied UK citizens the right to vote in the referendum in the first place. The UK government doesnt’ give a F*** about anything but staying in power. Hence the mess we are in.

    sbob
    Free Member

    kimbers – Member

    little Englanders

    You literally can’t help yourself, can you? 😆

    teamhurtmore
    Free Member

    Exact sums involved will come out later.

    You have answered your own question

    mrmo
    Free Member

    You have answered your own question

    So why the discussions, the formula is known and we can move on.

    kimbers
    Full Member

    You literally can’t help yourself, can you?

    its a talent!

    If you think that calling people lil englanders that voted for brexit so they could get rid of foreigners is inacurate, please explain it to me, nice & simple

    DrJ
    Full Member

    Edukator applications for UK passports from EU citizens have doubled.

    I wonder why? Something about people desperate for certainty, in the absence of any meaningful reassurance by UK?

    I imagine the workload is substantial to process them.

    Could well be. And quite predictable. Poor planning by the Home Office.

    The UK has made a very generous offer to them but the EU has simply insulted it (and them).

    Nope – repeating Tory head office parrot fashion doesn’t change the facts. The UK offer was inadequate and was quite properly rejected.

    EU citizens living in the UK have no chance of being under the jurisdiction of the ECJ. It’s a ludicrous request from the EU

    Not ludicrous at all given the evident lack of credibility of the UK to treat foreigners fairly.

    teamhurtmore
    Free Member

    the formula is known

    No it is not. Far from it. On top of that, the outcome will depend on fundamental political choices and compromised yet tbd. Only a fool would commit at this stage and our guys may not be great but they are not THAT foolish.

    The fact that each side has such a wide range of estimates for the final amount indicates as clearly as imaginable that it is anything but a simple formula.

    The HoL committee even confused that there is no legal obligation here, only a common sense one in terms of securing preferential trading relationships with EU in future, ergo, you negotiate both in tandem.

    teamhurtmore
    Free Member

    Not ludicrous at all given the evident lack of credibility of the UK to treat foreigners fairly.

    Amazing that any of them want to cone or even stay here isn’t I? Alternatively the accusation could be without basis, which is far more likely (indeed covered in parliamentary records if facts are deemed to be relevant to the debate at all)

    DrJ
    Full Member

    Or you could be getting muddled up. People came for jobs or relationships. Until recently they could that without needing permission. Now that has all changed -read up on “freedom of movement”.

    mrmo
    Free Member

    Amazing that any of them want to cone or even stay here isn’t I? Alternatively the accusation could be without basis

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/oct/15/judge-attacks-governments-grotesque-conduct-in-denying-woman-uk-passport

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4518022/Australia-born-British-mum-branded-illegal-immigrant.html

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/dec/28/dutch-woman-with-two-british-children-told-to-leave-uk-after-24-years

    etc etc etc

    If you manage to keep out of it, as EU citizens have been able to there is no issue, now the incompitence matters.

    mikewsmith
    Free Member

    well either reporting is getting better, or believing or just more hate
    https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/559319/hate-crime-1516-hosb1116.pdf
    or all 3

    TurnerGuy
    Free Member

    now the incompitence matters.

    teamhurtmore
    Free Member

    As long as the UK remains a member state of the EU (ie now) it is subject to laws guaranteeing EU citizens the right to FOM throughout the union. This will continue until we leave. On top of that the June White Paper set out the proposals for the status and rights of EU citizens post Brexshit. Rather than scaremongering we have a duty to EU cons to stick to the facts on these issues. Telling lies for political expediency should be avoided at all costs, this is peoples’ lives we are talking about.

    Reading up on FoM confirms this.

    So all the hate crime has occurred while we are members and while we have FoM guaranteed. I will leave you to determine what, if any, causation exists.

    mikewsmith
    Free Member

    So all the hate crime has occurred while we are members and while we have FoM guaranteed. I will leave you to determine what, if any, causation exists.

    Closet racists feel the power to be outside racists?
    FOM is ending or perceived to be so they can tell people to **** off home
    The campaign had a massive element of xenophobic* or racist* behaviours and encouraged people to put the UK first

    *Depends on how sensitive the racists are about being called racists

    binners
    Full Member

    [video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zkL91LzCMc[/video]

    DrJ
    Full Member

    As long as the UK remains a member state of the EU (ie now) it is subject to laws guaranteeing EU citizens the right to FOM throughout the union. This will continue until we leave.

    Reading up on FoM confirms this

    Excellent – well done. Did your reading lead you to a view on what might happen after the UK ceases to be a member state of the EU?

    So all the hate crime has occurred while we are members and while we have FoM guaranteed. I will leave you to determine what, if any, causation exists.

    Before I rush off and do that, remind me what hate crime has to do with this?

    mrmo
    Free Member

    So all the hate crime has occurred while we are members and while we have FoM guaranteed. I will leave you to determine what, if any, causation exists.

    And growing up i was called a f***ing Paddy, racists are racists, the only thing that has changed replace Irish with Muslim and Polish. Brexit has allowed the racists to come out into the open and express their opinions. We have also gained a government that is racist and xenophobic that has empowered them still further. Being in the EU with all it entails prevented the racist scum from being open in their racism.

Viewing 40 posts - 31,721 through 31,760 (of 77,140 total)

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