EU Referendum – are you in or out?

There’s some selective cause and effect going on there?

So the Greek crisis was all down to those nasty Germans, and nothing whatsoever to do with successive Greek governments cooking the books to join the Euro in the first place, borrowing shedloads of money they knew they couldn’t possibly repay, and the population all deciding that they were entitled to a highly paid public sector job, but they wouldn’t be paying any tax?

Oh … ok then.

Bloody Germans! The Bastards!

You’re right… we’re best off out of it, and we should be showing more solidarity with our left wing Greek brothers, as they fight the evil capitalist conspiracy that is the EU!

So the Greek crisis was all down to those nasty Germans,

That’s not what I said, so no point responding to the rest of your diatribe.

yes economics has laws – something politicians ignore at their peril in the LT – hence we KNOW that the Euro is toast. It confounds basic laws of currency arrangements – hence the damage that it continues to exert across Europe

There are two sided to every story. The Germans are as much to blame as the Greeks. Montagues and Capulets in the same misguided love agair. Pity the young in that story….

Indeed Hurty. The Euro is a ridiculous and unworkable nonsense. And it is indeed six of one, and half a dozen of the other when it comes to the inevitable crises. But I was just highlighting the ludicrous attitude of Corbyn and the left towards the EU.

If only there were some way of being in the EU but outside the Euro? Surely that would be perfect? The best of both worlds?

Oh….

something politicians ignore at their peril in the LT

Supposing that politicians give a flying fart about the LT. That’s someone else’s problem – the young mostly.

ut I was just highlighting the ludicrous attitude of the left towards the EU.

And I was highlighting the rose tinted specs that some people use when viewing the EU. It has benefits, and I voted Remain, but it’s far from perfect even beyond the mess that is the Euro.

I couldn’t agree more. The EU is profoundly undemocratic.

But in this case it is most definitely the lesser of two evils

I walked away from this thread some time ago, it wasn’t helping my frame of mind if I’m honest. Most of us agree Brexit is probably a disaster, those that don’t, don’t care, they’re happy for others to pay the price.

But feel I should drop this here as I recall Jamba saying loss of the EU’s agencies was of no consequence to the UK. “Good riddance”, in effect.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/aug/08/top-uk-research-agencies-will-lose-out-in-brexit-relocation-of-eu-medicines-regulator

Loved JRM trying to explain that trying to overturn Brexit is anti-democratic.
Given we all agree he’s a bright if misguided and self-centred lad, he knows that all democracies overturn previous votes. It’s what they do. The only question is does one do it via the ballot box or debating chamber (democratic) or via force or corruption (undemocratic).
Of those the Brexies and Brexit seems to be in the corrrupt, undemocratic area.

😯

[the only important news in past 48 hours is the growing, if incomplete, consensus amoung the Gov as to the nature of the transition period – progress….]

Keep negotiating guys and girls…

To negotiate you need aims and objectives, not sure there is a consensus around those two things…

Loved JRM trying to explain that trying to overturn Brexit is anti-democratic.

IS that because the majority of the MPs and probably the public now oppose it that its anti democratic or is it because he is massively pro Brexit?

I am not really sure how we get another vote given Mays insistence but it will take some cross party rebellion by both sets of Mps’s against their leaders.

It may well come to this but at this moment in time I see little likelihood of such a scenario but it could occur if Brexit negotiations are a total shambles/complete mess.

Hum interesting not a single post from the Remainers on the EU Commissioners travel disgrace or the Polish Chlorine / Formaldahide chicken issue (required treamsnt to stem Salmonella outbreak) or Dutch egg scandal. EU vested interests in farming to the fore mixed with that epically proportioned EU gravy train.

It’s taken 3 years of legal battles to get the EU to disclose anything about their travel and even then they refuse to release any detail other a brief 2 month period. Private Jets Brussels to Strasbourg. Remember these are civil servants not heads of Government (well excpet in their minds where the contrary is the case). I saw a piece on Newsnight where someone was tryin to compare Junker’s trip to Rome to Theresa May’s trip to see Trump. Internal EU meeting versus going to meet the keader of the most powerful nation on earth undertaken by our elected head of state.

EU Mired in Summer of Food Safety Scandals

Juncker’s Junkets: Commissioners Spent €500,000 on Travel in Two Months

Criticise the EU, point its flaws and required fixes? Absolutely. It’s far from perfect.

But leave the EU to improve food safety? Get real.

If there is a second referendum and leave win it again, would you accept the result? or would you campaign for a 3rd ,4th etc?

I’m open to a 2nd referendum if it looks like something material has changed, but I dont think it has

Post Brexit farming regulation explained…..

Julians – Well given remain won the first referendum and leave the second…

No, you accept the result of course, and I do, but not the position which you keep fighting. That’s democracy. We get to keep on fighting for what we believe in

Same as Farage who said before the second referendum that if it was 52:48 he’d want a third referendum.

julians I think I’d keep campaigning until I decide leaving is good for the country, the young in particular.

but you’re right now is certainly not the time for a second referendum. when the real world conequences of leaving start to become evident, that may be it, because leave voters will truly know what they are voting for.

personally I also struggle with the concept that other people voting my valued rights off me without my consent, and off my daughter, who was born with them, is democracy. double that when it’s the elderly (in my family too) who quite frankly have no skin in the game and are voting about how they feel about what happened 40 years ago, regardless of the consequences on those who have to live the best years of their lives with the result.

(as you see, no, I’m not over it) ;-).

Personally I would accept a vote if it was informed and not one with unachievable goals and blatant lies. Its obvious we wont get what Leave campaigned for as it was at the time.

I’m open to a 2nd referendum if it looks like something material has changed, but I dont think it has

the will of the people and the move from soft to hard Brexit?

More popel realise the “arc of propseroity” leving the EU was pie in the sky and the crushing if “red tape” means the erosion of your rights?

I think a hard core of voters will always be remain and some [ THM} will accept it now and “get on with it”

A number will always remain opposed to the result
Me less because of the result and more because of how it was won – lies, BS and more lies

Its fair to say Remain also did a risible campaign of fear, fear and more fear till the only money left safe was the money in my kids piggy bank

get over it
get on with it
get your coat and go for lunch

Bon Appetit

— redacted, not worth it.

— redacted, not worth it.

teamhurtmore – Member
get over it
get on with it
get your coat and go for lunch

Bon Appetit

Interesting. Was that aimed at leavers who didn’t support the first result or remainers who didn’t support the second?

And get over what exactly?
The result neither needs getting over or not getting over. It’s history. We’re a democracy therefore the fight to protect our children’s rights against the wrecking Brexies goes on.

It is the only morally acceptable thing to do.

it has to be a void result anyhow

these foreigners were allowed to vote

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/cotswolds-village-residents-dna-tests-not-british-gloucestershire-bledington-western-european-a7886541.html

in other news

it turns out high ranking civil servants are bent, taking backhanders and living the high life…..ooooh wiff of jealousy, who wouldnt if they could

Talk of another referendum is all well and good, as is the idea that Parliament should have a vote on the final deal but unless Article 50 is revocable (or can be made so) it’s all academic.

It is politically whether or not legally – which is why Davies et al are doing their best to alienate the Europeans to remove the political option.

get over it
get on with it
get your coat and go for lunch

Bon Appetit

Lets all jump to our deaths for Britain!

A way would be found.

Yes that’s why Davis is trying to burn the boats.

My expectation is a dramatic toys-out-of-pram walkout, and termination of talks, once the bill is put on the table. That’s why the UK’s not bothering to do anything now and just letting the clock tick.

There’ll also be no selective opt-in continuation of rights for UK citizens, which I suspect the EU would be in favour of, because the UK government won’t ask for it.

Tough shit kids, grandma knows best.

Tough shit kids, grandma knows best.

Tough shit kids, Grandma’s coming home, along with another million ailing pensioners we’ll be swapping for a big chunk of our workforce. Including the key NHS and Social Care workers that would have come in so handy.

No need to jump anywhere – apart from into the dark!

Much better to get beyond the denial and grief phases, accept what is in front of us, and focus on what you can control and do positively

And much, much better than wallowing in self-pity, recriminations (those nasty Brexshiteers lied to us, it’s not fair) and wild exaggerations. That just make a bad situation worse.

Its not whether something is bad or good that is important, it’s about the character we show in responding

unless Article 50 is revocable (or can be made so) it’s all academic

As noted the EU can do fudges easily so if they want us to stay then it is

IGM is wise that the pro brexit nutters may well just be trying to be complete arseholes to make sure this is not an option though I personally go for hopelessly inept dullards guided by a hubris only surpassed by their lack of skill in diplomatic areas

Much better to get beyond the denial and grief phases, accept what is in front of us, and focus on what you can control and do positively

Agreed THM. There’s no denial here, a little sadness perhaps for what the Brexies have done to my children, but not grief.
Now in terms of control I am doing what I can (a little here, a little there, nudging the odd company’s managers, whispering to the odd civil servant, ranting and raving on here for the humour of it – this forum ain’t going to change anything directly, but…) and it is absolutely positive to try and dismantle Brexit. The means are sometimes murkier but the end justifies them.

One thing that the pre-vote forecasts showed us was that the real hit was actually surprisingly small and subject to very large sensitivity to different assumptions. The damage to our children is far greater from other sources.

Whatever happens over the next 2 (10?) years we are still going to be trading with our European friends, we will still be interdependent with all parts of the world – that is what we do – we will still have our skills and resources and we will still be successful. The degree to which we are the latter depends on how sensibly we react to what is in front of us and how quickly we move on.

It’s is very difficult to do what no one else has ever done – hence our expectations re timing etc should be realistic not silly pipe dreams (that goes for remoaners and Brexshiteers). We will get through it. Why? because that is what is in EVERYONEs interests.

I don’t need to “get through it” everything was perfectly good before.
How many anti eu demonstrations were there before the referendum? None.
No one really gave a ****. The eu was on par with moaning about the repeats on telly.
A large part of my business is selling Belgian chocolates.
The cost has already rocketed. Once the tariffs go on we won’t be able to sell them anymore.
Of course it will all be the fault of those nasty euros.
We try and swallow as much of the price increases as we can.
Your stupid pathetic flag waving is costing me money and maybe even my staff their jobs.
Well done you ignorant ****.

What %age of the Belgium export market for chocolate is to the UK?

I don’t know and it doesn’t matter.
What matters is me being able to trade and my staff getting their wages.

Much better to get beyond the denial and grief phases, accept what is in front of us, and focus on what you can control and do positively

Thanks for telling us we are in grief and denial over the result its good to know there is no issue you cannot patronise us on so somethings have not changed.

What we can do is oppose it and try and reverse it which is as positive as we can be with this cluster **** of an idea and this omnishambles of a “plan”/implementation.

I can accept your view of just getting on with it but I am not sure why you cannot accept that some folk still wish to oppose it [and they are not all in denial or grief].
Both seem perfectly fine positions for a person to have – only an instance it will be of [economic short term]benefit to us to leave deserves such levels of derision.

Well it does matter. If the UK market is an important export market for Belgium then there is a greater likelihood that the margins squeeze could be greater for the exporter than the importer. What happens if you stop importing B chocs tomorrow. What would your suppliers do?

Tell you what THM I’m going to **** those nasty **** euros right over by going bust now.
That’ll really show them.
All over this country people like me are facing similar problems
Of course we will face going to the wall with our heads held high.
Maybe in 10 years our glorious leaders will have sorted a free trade on chocolate but by then it will be too late.

That’s not answering the question – it’s a serious one. What pricing power do you have?