Why would folk go out and vote for a fringe party when they can vote UKIP instead ( 😆 )

Yeah because UKIP are doing so well that even their leader can’t win a seat ( 😆 )

So now UKIP is the equivalent to the neo-nazi far-right in Europe?

OK, if that helps your simple take on things.

It’s not about getting the most racist badge ernie, it’s about the fact that hate crime is increasing, people seem to feel more comfortable expressing their views about foreign people etc.

I assume this below is opinion as I have no idea what stats you’d use to back it up.

No not an opinion, the claim that Britain is the most multicultural and least racist and xenophobic country in Europe is based on the fact that there no other country in more multicultural and less racist and xenophobic than Britain.

But I would be interested in your suggestions for that accolade.

Why, because I occasionally point out that Britain is the most multicultural and least racist and xenophobic country in Europe?

No, because you voted with the xenophobes, and its making you quite uncomfortable.

it’s about the fact that hate crime is increasing

Undoubtedly. But if you were to get yourself a time machine and go back in time you would find that Britain has never been less racist and xenophobic than it is today.

More hate crime doesn’t necessarily mean more racists. And compared to some other European countries in incidences of hate crime are still relatively low in Britain. Furthermore a 50% increase, for example, of a small figure isn’t much.

Germany quite likes staying in the EU, it doesn’t stop this though :

Germany hate crime: Nearly 10 attacks a day on migrants in 2016

Undoubtedly. But if you were to get yourself a time machine and go back in time you would find that Britain has never been less racist and xenophobic than it is today.

Again its not something you win by being the most or best at it. It’s fair to say the closet racists are coming out into the open. People are expressing more xenophobic views, immigrants are being targeted. None of these things are good, saying it’s not as bad as or it was worse in the past makes it all sound acceptable. It’s not.

it’s about the fact that hate crime is increasing

That is not a fact – figures haven’t been released yet as far as I can see, there was a certainly short term spike for a couple of months following the result of the referendum, but it is difficult to find any reports after that.

No, because you voted with the xenophobes, and its making you quite uncomfortable.

Leaving the EU is imo the most positive political development in Britain since Harold Wilson won the 1975 general election, I’m hugely comfortable with the result. And I couldn’t give a monkeys that UKIP supported leaving the EU for their own and very different reasons.

Edit to the above, that should read “imo the most positive political development in Britain since Harold Wilson became prime minister in 1974”.

Anyway I’ll leave it there – I went to the NHS demo in London today and didn’t fancy going out tonight, but I’ve got to get up for a bike ride tomorrow morning. Carry on….

Leaving the EU is imo the most positive political development in Britain since Harold Wilson won the 1975 general election, I’m hugely comfortable with the result. And I couldn’t give a monkeys that UKIP supported leaving the EU for their own and very different reasons.

I do believe that quite a few on the left who voted out believed the EU was some nasty free market capitalist entity, but proceeded to vote out with a bunch of ultra free market capitalists.

They even believe that this country is going to come round and say the left and its Utopian policies were correct all along, and once a socialist Government is in power all will be well again.

Well you are getting May and her bunch of see you next Tuesdays. For a long time to come.

Voting with Xenophobes and free marketeers, and ending up with an authoritarian Government. Excellent work there.

What about my lost rights Ernie?

It’s not all about you Molgrips

It’s not all about you Molgrips

Jamba does.
Bankers do.
Why not Molly?

the most positive political development in Britain since Harold Wilson became prime minister in 1974

Why do you think that.

It’s not all about you Molgrips

What about everyone’s lost rights?

Not important?

I have been reading this thread with interest, had to catch up since my last post a few weeks ago. I am still waiting for the leave camp to advance a decent argument as to:
How will it work?
What is so great about it compared to the eu relationship we have now?
As I have said, I am on the fence, I need to be persuaded, I have heard plenty of cogent remain arguments, but so far leave is just lots of optimism, but no actual theory/reasoning. There has to be a reason why the Jacob Rees Moggs of the world think leaving will be better for all of us.
Perhaps Ernie as you see it as positive, you could explain why? What convinced you?

No not an opinion, the claim that Britain is the most multicultural and least racist and xenophobic country in Europe is based on the fact that there no other country in more multicultural and less racist and xenophobic than Britain.

Facts require evidence. Got some evidence that every other country in Europe is more racist and more xenophobic than Britain?
How do you even measure xenophobia objectively?

Are we still going round in circles on this ? Throughout Europe in partcuiar for example in Poland, Hungary, France, Germany and Holland there is a growing discomfort with immigration policy whether that is from within the EU or external. Politicians have ignored this sentiment for a very long time and it has started to reach a level where the people havng been ignored are listening to new voices. Gert Wilders called Moroccans “scum”, his one man party are leading the polls in Holland with the elction now very close. We had an EU Referendum which gave the public it’s chnace to express their desire for a change in policy. Germany is responding by changes to the law. Austria came within a hairs breadth of electing a far right President,mPoland already has a strongly anti-immigrant/refugee government …

Read the Casey report into integration in the UK. Governments of every colour have been ignoring this issue and ploughing on regardless.

5nplus8 we have explained our thoughts many times. Back at the beginning Ernie posted info from Left Leave supporting his rationale, here is an example

http://www.leftleave.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Lexit1_v1.2.pdf

Got some evidence

he is going to say it a third time without any facts thereby elevating it to a definite truth

Hopefully he will do it in an early morning tweet

Some folks dont believe we are the least racist and xenophobic people you have ever met [sad] but we are.FACT

Jambas, the rise of xenophobia across Europe that you describe is EXACTLY why the BS behind it needs to be stood up to. A simple lesson of history. Blaming Johnny is weak and misguided and ultimately SHAMEFUL

Heading right?
If Britain votes to leave, it won’t automatically mean a move to
the right. The Tories are being torn apart by debate over the EU.
If Cameron loses, he will almost certainly go. If a Conservative
government survives, it will be hopelessly fragile.
Not only will the government be weakened. The rich and powerful
overwhelmingly support British membership. The City, the Confederation
of British Industry and the Institute of Directors all support the status
quo. So do at least two-thirds of large British firms surveyed by the
Financial Times last year. A crisis for our rulers can open up a greater
space for the left.

Full of quality there Jamby, spot on I’d say 🙂 It’s probably one of the reasons a lot of people think this is going nowhere good an a complete shambles

No not an opinion, the claim that Britain is the most multicultural and least racist and xenophobic country in Europe is based on the fact that there no other country in more multicultural and less racist and xenophobic than Britain.

here’s a thought for you, why has the UK always imported low skilled workers, Irish Navvies, Jamaican bus drivers, polish abattoir workers, etc, etc??

Maybe your idea of racism and xenophobia needs looking at, maybe it is because the UK sees itself as too good to the crap jobs, those are for foreigners.

1974 was indeed a momentous point in political history – more chaos that delivered…..not long term socialism….but Ernie’s poster girl to power and all the meant. Welcome Maggie…..and labour civil war.

5plusn8

In defence of the Leavers it’d be pretty hard to be able to present any actual evidence of how good/bad/indifferent it could be, as no country had done anything as crazy/progressive/great/etc* (pick whichever suits your belief) as this before.

http://www.parliament.uk/business/committees/committees-a-z/lords-select/eu-financial-affairs-subcommittee/news-parliament-2015/eu-budget-report-publication/

So got through most of this.

There is no obligation to continue to pay into the EU budget nor to fund the €63bn pension fund deficit the EU has allowed to build up.

The Germans seem to have grasped this as they have said the 2015-2020 EU budget plan must be renegotiated (they say in 2018 conveniently after their elections 😐 ) to take into account the missing UK contributions from 2019.

No one has any real idea how to calculate anything of substance, the report uses in bold type the word speculation with regard to figures banded about. Even the EU’s own Finance representative who gave evidence was producing figures all over the shop.

Pensions. Employees pay 9.25% but the EU does nothing at all to make provision for it’s 18.5% share. Their problem, morally and legally. No doubtbif they tried to withhold pensions they would be sued.

Finally, the report provides further justification for tye £350m a week figure not least in that any rebate is paid 12 months in arrears (and is variable and subject to withdrawl). So it really is the case we pay in £363m (and rising) a week.

To the point that walking away paying nothing would be politically damaging, that’s just horsesh.t. No business wouod ever make a payment in the billions which itbwas not legally bound to do so and nor should we. Politicians in no way should hand over billions of taxpayers money with no legal obligation to do so. The report shows page after page the total chaos and disorganisation at the EU. It is no surprise they have not had a clean audit for the longest time and that fraud is rife. The whole concept of Reste a liquider (pay later) couldn’t be more French in its shambolicness (if thats a word), countries deciding what they spend as they go and asking for rebates (N+3) years later.

The EU is a diabolically dysfunctional organisation and is truely Daffy Ducked over this so called “exit bill”

@nplus have a read of this – pdf linked to after intro, partisan of course

Project Cheer Vol. 2: Reasons to be upbeat about Brexit

Finally, the report provides further justification for tye £350m a week figure not least in that any rebate is paid 12 months in arrears (and is variable and subject to withdrawl). So it really is the case we pay in £363m (and rising) a week.

and the rebate means in real terms the number is bull shit. No matter how much you spin it the figure when it’s all done and dusted is not £350 Million.

Politicians in no way should hand over billions of taxpayers money with no legal obligation to do so.

There may be a legal liability but it is simply unenforceable – this is quite common in international situations where public policy is involved. You should know this if you read any of the legal opinions that accompany bond issues.

1) The lexit document, (here) is a series of moans, some of which are incorrect and indefensible. They do not outline any proposals about how things will be better, just what people do not like. I understand why people do not like these things, but you need to replace them with something better, what are those things? Its kind of like saying I do not like parachutes, 1 in 10000 people die in parachute accidents, so I am going to stop using parachutes when I jump out of planes. What I am asking for is brexits proposals for parachutes 2.0 or maybe jet packs that are cheaper and more reliable. All we have so far is not parachutes. That is a bit scary.
2) project cheer is also laughable, in between all the guff and massive font quotes, there is some quality bullshit . a) int trade, their best example is trump, once saying that he would do a good deal with us, when in fact all the us reps are licking their lips over trade they will steal from us and how much they are going to charge us to export to the USA.
b)confidence in Britain , quoting nissan, apple and google, all of whom have now rowed back on their commitment.
c) growing economy, arguably the economy has partly been shored up in the short term by carney, and the populace are spending like crazy because the think the end is nigh. And the economy is booming, whilst still being in the EU, so that hardly illustrates brexit does it?

Anyway whether you agree with these or not, none are proposals about how britain will be better off in the long term, what is outlined in both pdfs is debatable observed phenomena about the state of the country today, before brexit. And do not give concrete proposals about how brexit will make us better off (socially, financially whatever your measure.)

I really do not want to come off as a remainer, but I would like to be convinced. It seems this thing is going to happen, so the best thing to do is understand it and work with it. I want to know how it will work. Concrete proposals.
I am a bit thick Jambyala and Ernie so just right a number proposals that simply comprehensively cover how the theory of brexit works. Why are you so convinced its brilliant.

I am a bit thick Jambyala and Ernie so just right a number proposals that simply comprehensively cover how the theory of brexit works.

In short we had a really great deal from the worlds largest trade area that includes some of the richest economies in the world, and we are leaving to trade with New Zealand. This is being sold to us as a really good idea, since we no longer have to accept immigrants our economy needed if we’d stayed.

I might be missing some details though, since that sounds like a really stupid idea.

milleboy, thanks for answering me directly. Unfortunately it does not really illuminate matters, I am very familiar with the remain argument. There must be some sensible counter to this, otherwise what do Murdoch, Rees Mogg, May etc get out of it? Why is it so great?

what do Murdoch, Rees Mogg, May etc get out of it?

I guess more than 3 people think it’s a good idea though?
May got a bigger office and car, Rees Mogg got to look relevant (unbelievable, I know).

I’m not helping I know, but I struggle to come up with any ‘real’ benefits from it. It’s like cancelling a really good ski holiday to stay at home and do the decorating.

In short we had a really great deal from the worlds largest trade area that includes some of the richest economies in the world, and we are leaving to trade with New Zealand. This is being sold to us as a really good idea, since we no longer have to accept immigrants our economy needed if we’d stayed.

I don’t think that is quite right, India are demanding immigration relaxation as are Australia, and i suspect so will NZ.

And what will Spain demand in return for keeping the UK expats? Gibraltar? Or how about a Trade deal with Argentina?

It’s like cancelling a really good ski holiday to stay at home and do the decorating plant spuds.

FTFY

And what will Spain demand in return for keeping the UK expats? Gibraltar?

Good point, do we have enough capacity for production of elasticated waisted slacks if they all have to come back?

5+

The case (FWIW) can still be found in the Vote Leave website. As (chillingly) amusing now as when it was first made up.

Still worked better than the truth…..

I don’t think that is quite right, India are demanding immigration relaxation as are Australia, and i suspect so will NZ.

Be interesting to see whether relax their entry requirements for Brits.

And what will Spain demand in return for keeping the UK expats? Gibraltar? Or how about a Trade deal with Argentina?

Who knows but I’m watching with interest as my father lives in Spain, the local authority have said they will support as much as they can, but that’s not Spanish central government policy. So who knows what will happen if everyone shuts up shop on immigration.

He’s got residential status though but I’m not sure how much protection that could offer.

The EU is a diabolically dysfunctional organisation

So is the UK government though. We’ve not gained anything in that area.