Consider what would have happened in Greece without the Euro. So entry was fudged as they never met the conditions, because the structural problems were there before they joined the Euro zone.

The IMF has admitted grossly mismanaging the Greek and other Euro debt problems yet feels free to criticise when it is at heart of the problem. The IMF saved the banks, not Greece.

The key as far as I’m concerned is that anyone in Greece with any assets took part in a capital flight transferring their assets abroad. This is also what happened to the money injected into Greece by the IMF. It was laundered through Switzerland, barely transiting by Greece.

So there are a series of issues with the EURO as one of the minor issues that cause the crisis and a major factor in preventing the country going completely tits up. From the point of view of Greek citizens, the few Euros they have in their pockets are worth something, I doubt that would have been the case if they had hung on to drachmas, they’d have ended up with hyper inflation and worthless notes in their pockets. It would be nice if the money belonging to wealthy Greeks were being recycled in the Greek economy rather than festering in Swiss vaults.

finally a debate breaks out.

How many countries met the Maastricht criteria on entry?

Yes, their structural problems predates the €. The € simply made them worse.

The IMF did a very bad job, true. They are backtracking now hence the current stand off (you are following the Greek news now I assume)

Greek debt is unsustainable – I have stated this all along. It has to be restructured. The EZ merely kick this can, or what’s left of it, down the road. making matters worse. Think about this Scotland!!

How did the Euro prevent it going tits up? That’s very odd

Of course capital flight took place, why wouldnt it? Do you expect Greeks to have not learned from Argentina?? Why would a sane Greek person not transfer assets abroad?

Greek debt would have been sustainable with a lower interest rate at the start of the crisis. You’ll find posts expressing my frustration at the German refusal to Eurobonds and the same interest rate for the whole Euro zone à la Fed on this forum since the hack. Banks have made a lot of money out of Greece paying 25% interest and yet they didn’t have to take a risk as the IMF was there to finance the next round of debt. If Greece has the same interest rate as Germany (which hover around negative) any level of debt is sustainable.

The Euro is a hard currency so the Greeks have always had a currency to trade with, that has prevented Greece going tits up in the way Argentina did with money held in banks being lost and individuals and businesses going down with the banks.

Capital flight took place because people transferred assets legally (I agree, why wouldn’t they), but illegally on a massive scale, with the help of the opacity provided by Switzerland. The Greek government couldn’t track what was happening and enforce laws.

Britain would be in the same situation as Greece but for low interest rats which are justified by the strength of the pound. Greece has a strong currency but paradoxically pays high interest rates. Eurobonds are the answer.

Well why were rates not low? I have posted the basic Maths on debt sustainability many times. Greek debt is unsustainable – period.

Why do Eurobonds not exist? You are gettingn closer to why the € is/was flawed, keep going.

The euro created the conditions that led to the unsustainable position. If you don’t trust me, read Varoufakis.

Free movement of capital – what does that mean?

No real questions there that aren’t answered in my previous post.

I’m sure you know what free legal movement of capital is. Illegal movement of capital isn’t free.

Ok, just dodge them

I do, true

No,,it’s illegal

Your point?

THM – I make no comment on whether you are right or wrong on Scots independence.
I’m a Scots ex-pat in Yorkshire as many will know, and I oppose independence for all sorts of reasons, but I can see why it appeals to some.
What I would say is I think you’re English (I may be wrong) and if I’ve got that right, then your opinion, right or wrong, will be as popular with the average Scots as a German explaining to an English audience why they should be ruled (in a devolved fashion of course) from Berlin.
Even if you are 100% right (especially this) then you are wrong.
But you know that I think.
For balance I think you’re right in the Euro and Greek debt – much as I like the Euro as a concept it just doesn’t work in reality.

Surely you are not suggesting that this is an anti-English thing?

IIRC when Canadians pour cold water on the hot iS lies, they were not that popular either!

(But the alleged debate is flawed. The UK is well designed and can and does work, The Euro zone is badly designed and can’t and doesn’t work. That aside…..)

Simple point is the scottish are not likely to to be won over by a ranting englishman telling them how nice the union is for them and to stop being so stupid. I understand why you sidestepped the blindingly obvious point with a feeble straw man

The reality is someone like you – right wing tory english is unlikely to help win a vote for remain in muh the same way a pre european german would not have helped remain.
TBH it would be so bad I would imagine the SNP would pay for you to do a tour

The UK is well designed and can and does work if you are english

FTFY

The reality is this vote is an example of it not working for Scotland and always working for the english who do not get outvoted.

No THM – I’m suggesting that it can come across as “you guys need us grown ups to look after you” – a bit patronising.
Whether it’s true or not and whether you intend it or not.

And yes much as I love the euro concept, the implementation is broken and I see no practicable way to fix it.

TBH it would be so bad I would imagine the SNP would pay for you to do a tour

😀 tru dat.

Truth is had to swallow some times IGM !

I love the concept of the single market but understand why the € is fundamentally flawed. Separate things. It can’t work for very good reasons and on top of that the key elements are missing. The amusing thing for someone who gets accused of certain political biases, is how so-called lefties tolerate the appalling social and economic repercussions that stem from ignoring these basic facts. In contrast, I abhor them which is why I agree with a lot (not all) of what Varoufakis says. As he notes, there are some things that even economists can agree on.

But the ignorance that lies behind it is a the heart of your first point too. 😉

BTW, who is going to shut the window, you or me? Think it needs to be open a wee bit longer yet….quite strong today. Could be the prevailing wind.

The amusing thing for someone who gets accused of certain political biases

Are you still wanting to claim you are politically neutral 😯

Bit delusional seeing as you then followed it up with a cheap dig at the lefties – funny how there are never any at the righties eh

I have no idea why you get so upset when folk point out you are a right winger. We all have biases on here no one is neutral so why sell the snake oil you just look like a right winger who struggles with the truth and that is not a character improvement

Are you still wanting to claim you are politically neutral

You can’t be politically neutral – THM claims to be not party aligned, IIRC. There’s a difference.

He’s clearly somewhat to the right on the traditional spectrum.

well we only have one traditionally right of the spectrum party and he does – or at least has- claimed to be politically neutral.

He may actually be more impartial[ we mean centrist dont we] than most but that is not what he has claimed[ though he might now just to smite me]

I love the concept of the single market but understand why the € is fundamentally flawed.

Agreed. Doesn’t stop me wishing the € wasn’t fundamentally flawed though. Sadly I have to accept it is.

Shall we leave the window to see if young Nicola calls Indy 2 on the same day (not)mother Theresa calls A50 – make it easier to hear the commotion.

Different spectrum mol, different spectrum.

I am party agnostic, Issues interest me, parties much less so (except for amusement purposes of course, then they are brilliant and compelling in equal measure)

IGM, IIRC it’s not her decision, but that apart…..

Scotsman (daily reading) has article on ground work being made with some choice comments underneath!!

If you like the idea of a single currency union – and there are reasons in the right context and the correct design – then by defintion you have to be in favour of the UK for the current member nations. It’s a non-sequitur to argue otherwise.h

(I am keeping the window open for a while yet)

Scotsman – not the paper it was…

If you like the idea of a single currency union – and there are reasons in the right context and the correct design – then by defintion you have to be in favour of the UK for the current member nations.

I am – but I can understand why some aren’t. And I agree that belief in currency union leads towards belief in political union fairly quickly.

Nah, its pro the Union!

Edit: so can I its a natural consequence of post truth politics. Indeed in its current form it was the birthplace. #SDBMB

I don’t get the impression on reading the comments that many of the folk left, that they are either Scots or live in Scotland.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/nicola-sturgeon-condemns-pathetic-corbyn-over-brexit-1-4362437

this came up on my facebook feed 🙂

Switzerland isn’t in the EU!

it not out of it either though is it

Yeah and when they had a rancid referendum with a stupid result, the politicians worked out how to deal with it in a sensible manner rather than going batshit crazy and driving the country off a cliff.

if anyone here is interested more details I do like the

Office working language is English

I may apply but not really in my “comfort zone”.

and

We comply with all statutory requirements such as pension and accidental health cover.

may be useful if you were to take advantage of the hills in the background 😉

@Klunk Switzerland imo is a wonderful place to live. Be careful though of job offers which seem attractive until you see the cost of living there. For reference I have seen good graduate starting jobs at £100k equivalent

@ Edukator, the tax stat was for Greece ( from IMF report). The Germans quite rightly refused to take on responsibility for Greek debt without reforms. The Greeks should have accepted Germany’s (tongue in cheek) offer of 500 tax inspectors. The “bailout” did not save the banks it saved the eurozone’s very existence (for the time being), the IMF got involved as a failure of the euro was acknowledged to be bad for everyone globally (at that time). Blaming Swiss banks is daft, Greeks quite rightly wanted to get their money out, there is a long list of banks and countries they could perfectly legally transfer their money to. Greece has stemmed the capital outflows by capital controls one of who’s side effects is to encourage cash transactions. Why put your money in a bank if it is trapped there and quite likely to be lost

As always IMO.

igm Scotland doesn’t need anyone to look after, Scotland is very much part of our Democracy. Personally I think we’d be a lot better off if a certain Scot had not been in charge of the Economy from ’97 and the entire country after Blair. However, I would not blame Scotland for him. Styrgeon and Salmond are a quite different story.

The whole Scotland voted Remain is a means to an end Independence wise. SNP are well aware that the chances of Independence are zero once outside the EU and having to apply to rejoin.

Jambas, I fear that nos amis Edukator was getting a little confused earlier. Rather that looking at legal capital flight from bank accounts he should be looking at the correct data source for where the illegal stuff was happening – the Balance of Payments is the place to start.

On top of that more legal capital flight came to the UK than to Switzerland, but let’s just put it down to a bad morning.

Jambas – be fair Gordi saved us from the Euro and single handedly rescued the world from the global financial crisis.

Actually only one of those claims is true, sorry.

THM – Got an interesting one to work out

If Tony Blair hadn’t agreed to a reduction in the UK rebate, then what would the UK net contribution be today?

Jamba – agreed. Brown was a little free and easy on banking regulation. But those were the times – I don’t remember many asking for more regulation at the time.

No idea, you tell me.

Scotland doesn’t need anyone to look after, Scotland is very much part of our Democracy

I am sure they will be looking at the way they voted in the EU referendum and the result and coming to the exact same conclusion as you 😯
can you imagine your reaction if the UK was staying in the EU because the Germans said so ?

THM – to be honest, it seems to be remarkably complex to work out

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/BRIE/2016/577973/EPRS_BRI(2016)577973_EN.pdf

far beyond me mate – might be a good one for your students 🙂

Might pass. ;-). More intrigued by the French default story

And the ridiculous juxtaposition of Tory MPs like Letwin “threatening” the HoL while Labour peers defend it – even Peter Hain last night. Amusingly awful!!

I’ll be honest, I like one elected for x years house and one sit in perpetuity house. One body are very clearly beholden to their constituents and can be will be voted out if they act too far outside their interests, but the weakness is that they can be swayed too much by populism (that would never happen here of course). The other house can not be called to account by the electorate, but this frees them from the difficulties of making unpopular but correct decisions – they can follow their conscience.
The combination of the two is rather good, each making up for the other’s failings.
How you choose the HoL is another question of course.

Rather like a bee * the HoL works well despite its obvious design faults

The quality of the debate and papers is often excellent

* appreciate there is some urban myth there about bees!