Hyperbole much, Cranberry?

I felt discriminated against on the grounds of my race. Very strange feeling.

I think you learn to prioritise it and the majority of casual racism is dismissed as the spouting of idiots, institutionalised racism is a bit more difficult to accept. Violent threats are something I’ve never really had to deal with, but imagine it’d keep you on your toes.

Immigration has been good for the country, but do you really think that it could go on at the rate that it has ? Would you really be happy if in 5 years they concrete over your favourite trails to build the housing that is needed because we are forbidden to control the numbers of people that come to the UK ?

Do you have a secure source?

I was going to complement her hairdresser on making her look less like Gary Oldman in Dracula, but that would be a bit shallow.

Yep after all the effort with her magnum opus you only took any notice of her hair.

you getting a crush on her 🙂

@DrJ, all I can say is having lived here and in the UK too, I see no more evidence of racism here than in the UK, just the same level as the UK but with a different attitude to change – very slow and considered.

Additionally, the UN findings on the racism inherent in ZP only annoyed more people; people that would be happy to listen to the feelings of those who don’t appreciate the ZP iconography are now resisting the changes because they’re annoyed they’re being told by someone else what the intention of their own cultural icon is. Own goal there.

I certainly haven’t seen evidence of the discrimination inherent in your post…. Though I am sure it exists somewhere I disagree about it’s prevalence (been here 16 months now).

It’s certainly not racist in intention

Would you like to come and join me – I’ve got tickets to The Black and White Mistrels show – they’ll be singing Mammy ?

We could take a pot of jam with us, you know, the one with the Gollywog on the top ?

No ?

Zwarte Piet is a slave, owned by a white man, who has had his chanins removed in the last couple of years. He is a blacked up white man.

Nevertheless, according to a 2013 survey, upwards of 90% of the Dutch public don’t perceive Zwarte Piet to be a racist character or associate him with slavery and are opposed to altering the character’s appearance.[30] This correlates to a 2015 study among Dutch children aged 3–7 which showed that they perceive Zwarte Piet to be a fantastical clownish figure rather than a black person.[31] However, the number of Dutch people who are willing to change certain details of the character (for example its lips and hair) is reported to be growing.[32][33]

Would any of that stand up to scrutiny in the UK ?

Opposition to the figure is mostly found in the most urbanized provinces of North- and South Holland, where between 9% and 7% of the populace wants to change the appearance of Zwarte Piet. In Amsterdam, the nation’s capital, most opposition towards the character is found among the Ghanaian, Antillean and Dutch-Surinamese communities, with 50% of the Surinamese considering the figure to be discriminatory to others, whereas 27% consider the figure to be discriminatory towards themselves.[34] The predominance of the Dutch black community among those who oppose the Zwarte Piet character is also visible among the main anti-Zwarte Piet movements, Zwarte Piet Niet and Zwarte Piet is Racisme which have established themselves since the 2010s. Generally, adherents of these groups consider Zwarte Piet to be part of the Dutch colonial heritage, in which black people were subservient to whites and/or are opposed to what they consider stereotypical black (“Black Sambo”) features of the figure, such as bright red lips, curly hair and large golden earrings.

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Yep it’s like debating a toddler

Once you learn that the purpose of debate is to persuade people to vote for your side, rather than generate facebook likes from like-minded individuals, you might actually achieve something.

Yeah I get it, he looks awful in 2017 but honestly, it’s not either the sticking point you say it is.

There’s many now different colour Piets – things are changing. Blackface and Gollywogs are still used here, but much more innocently than you are projecting. It’s not the same thing, and it is changing. You can quote stuff all day but how much time do you actually spend here?

And you’re wrong about the back story – there is no agreed narrative. EG my girlfriend’s school taught her (20 years ago) that ZPs are demons.

He hands out presents to the kids, it may look very odd but it’s actually a lovely idea, all the children come together in the streets and celebrate the arrival of Saint Nicholaas* an ZP, we only get that when Sports Direct had been looted.

Try googling “Rainbow Piet”… There’s plenty of progress and support for changing the iconography, it’s just very slow moving.

For the record, I am convinced the character needs to be de-blackfaced and I have argued quite sucessfully with the people who oppose it. It’s not really complex, he doesn’t need to look like that…. but you’re misunderstanding the deeper cultural context and the way most people actually feel about the character.

*he is actually a Saint – in some versions of the story he’s freed the Moorish Piets and they’re here’s with him of their own accord. I get it [again] that it looks pretty terrible, but if they’re Moorish Slaves and the Dutch population is mostly white how else would you expect them to look?

No we are not – unless we chose to be

Explain?

@molgrips the US is a country of 350m people and far richer than large chunks of Europe, job prospects for your relatives are far better there and US growth is far stronger

You really don’t get my point. This has nothing to do with simply finding a job. It’s about the experience of being able to live and work in another country. Which will now be very much more difficult from what I can tell. This isn’t melodrama, I am really upset about this.

My family really do wish for this opportunity, that up til now I’ve had but now seems to be going away.

This is a crying shame, you have to admit.

It’s certainly not racist in intention, it just looks odd. He’s actually generally said to be black from having come down the chimney, though it’s taking a long time to change the standard outfit.

Certainly not my understanding from living there, St Nicholas (who as everyone knows is Turkish) lands in Southern Spain, which was controlled by the Moors at the time, and picks up Zwart Piet there.

Sorry I looked away for a minute. Is this the why on earth are we committing economic suicide (while taking as many down with us as possible) thread or the who’s the most racist thread?

Sorry I looked away for a minute. Is this the why on earth are we committing economic suicide (while taking as many down with us as possible) thread or the who’s the most racist thread?

That seems to be the long and short of it, just look at Express/Mail headlines or most of Farage’s soundbites, who’s great grandfather was an immigrant. 😕

That’s easy – it’s Morris Dancers. Allegedly.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/08/25/shrewsbury-folk-festival-bans-blackface-morris-dancers/

Once you learn that the purpose of debate is to persuade people to vote for your side, rather than generate facebook likes from like-minded individuals, you might actually achieve something.

And to be able to call out the other side and dare to ask them to provide proof for their claims…. Debating brexiters goes generally one way they argue a point, ignore requests to prove it and change the subject when provided with evidence. Followed by a bit if a flounce from the delicate snowflakes

Also for the record – I would never dream of dressing up like that.

When you have the established thing that brings everyone together and is generally regarded as a really sweet and community-driven moment, how would you proceed? Especially in a country where everything is slow to change as people default to taking everyone else’s point of view into consideration. In my experience the issue is that they don’t want to lose the coming-together, and falling out over the colour is harming that as well.

Overall the Dutch are keen to have good relations with everybody, they built everything on trade after all. Let them get on with adapting, but the harder you push they harder they want to push back [reminds me of a certain referendum]…

Anyway – I fear this is a little OT. Again, in case anyone wants to paint* me as racist: I think it looks terrible, but I also think only the Dutch know the meaning of the cultural event. Some things just can’t translate – like “gezellig” “nog” or “slag” which just don’t have English equivalents.

*pink with sparkles please.

He’s actually generally said to be black from having come down the chimney,

I have heard that rationalisation – I’m not sure how chimneys give you curly hair and big lips!

After a good chat with her this morning on the way to school, here is the considered opinion of my 12 (nearly 13) year old….

Her generation have been totally betrayed by a much older, selfish generation who are inherently racist, and not very bright, and are depriving her of the opportunities that they themselves enjoyed

Difficult to argue with that assessment really

Would you like to come and join me – I’ve got tickets to The Black and White Mistrels show – they’ll be singing Mammy ?

We could take a pot of jam with us, you know, the one with the Gollywog on the top ?

No ?
I watched the B&W Minstrel show, I ate robinsons jam, I do believe that there was a toy golliwog in the toy cupboard, and there were frequent appearences in books.
Guess what? It didn’t make me a racist, I wasn’t at the time and I am not now.
I can even look at those images and not be a racist.
What exactly is your point? Apart from saying racism is ok in this country because it’s worse in The Netherlands. 😕

I watched the B&W Minstrel show, I ate robinsons jam, I do believe that there was a toy golliwog in the toy cupboard, and there were frequent appearences in books.
Guess what? It didn’t make me a racist, I wasn’t at the time and I am not now.

I did too, and you know what? I’m not sure I can put my hand on my heart and say it never affected the way I saw things, if not now, at some point in my life.

I also read “Little Black Sambo” books, which incidentally are still on sale in Denmark.

After a good chat with her this morning on the way to school, here is the considered opinion of my 12 (nearly 13) year old….

Her generation have been totally betrayed by a much older, selfish generation who are inherently racist, and not very bright, and are depriving her of the opportunities that they themselves enjoyed

Difficult to argue with that assessment really

Too bad our “leaders” are not as smart as your 12 year old 🙁

My daughter (older than 12) was not happy about discovering that in a couple of years she may only be able to see her mum on holiday visits.

DrJ – Member
He’s actually generally said to be black from having come down the chimney

I have heard that rationalisation – I’m not sure how chimneys give you curly hair and big lips![/quote]

No it sucks. Anyway, I am sorry you had a bad experience here. I can only say from my time in Gelderland [pretty damn rural] the majority of people are kind, generous and don’t want to offend. Your posts usually make me smile, so let me know if you happen to travel near Arnhem and we can have a beer and swap stories.

so let me know if you happen to travel near Arnhem and we can have a beer and swap stories.

Deal 🙂

Look on the bright side binners, if your daughter is that articulate at 12 then she is destined to great things!ww

+1 – it’ll be smart people like her (and I’ll add my similarly aged daughter to that) will be the ones who dig us back out of this mess.

and are depriving her of the opportunities that they themselves enjoyed

We are going to lose the Greggs Steak Bake when we leave the EU, how come this didn’t emerge in the campaign, it would have been a game changer.

And to be able to call out the other side and dare to ask them to provide proof for their claims….

And you know what, by doing so you fell right into their trap, as Dominic Cummings made clear, the £350 million figure was a tactic, they knew it was an exaggeration, but also knew while everyone discussed our EU contribution, Leave were gaining votes. The Leave campaign are no doubt grateful for your efforts, you were really stitched up like a kipper.

The Leave campaign are no doubt grateful for your efforts, you were really stitched up like a kipper.

In a bigger way they stitched up the people ho believed them, those that will suffer the most and gain nothing.
Regardless of the way of the modern world it’s just not cricket as they say.

Look on the bright side binners, if your daughter is that articulate at 12 then she is destined to great things!

Luckily she takes after her mum Hurty! 😉

And you know what, by doing so you fell right into their trap, as Dominic Cummings made clear, the £350 million figure was a tactic, they knew it was an exaggeration, but also knew while everyone discussed our EU contribution, Leave were gaining votes. The Leave campaign are no doubt grateful for your efforts, you were really stitched up like a kipper.

Is this what our democracy has come to – tricking people into voting a certain way by avoiding substantive debate? Sad.

binners daughter for PM!

Leave were gaining votes. The Leave campaign are no doubt grateful for your efforts, you were really stitched up like a kipper.

I think that nicely exemplifies what the right are all about these days

I can only say from my time in Gelderland [pretty damn rural] the majority of people are kind, generous and don’t want to offend.

Currently watching Braindead on Amazon Prime which is a stunningly good show, quite appropriate to this thread in many ways. They (re) made the point that people can be lovely individually but vicious when you get them together.

Funny that, isn’t it?

Is this what our democracy has come to – tricking people into voting a certain way by avoiding substantive debate?

Yep. As I’ve always said, the concept only works if everyone is a rational actor. And we are far from that. So how to fix it? As in almost everything in the world, the bottom line is EDUCATION.

@gofastr as a point of order I made no comment about Black Piet, I do know my mate with a Dutch wife thinks he’s a very “dodgy” chatacter in today’s world.

tjagain – Member
I find the allegations of racism in the netherlands being worse than here laughable. I have family in the netherlands and while there is some racism there and they even have their own farage figure the racism and xenophobia in the netherlands is nothing like as prevalent as it is in the UK

TJ “Holland’s Farage” is on track to be the largest party in Parliament after the elections. The Dutch where sufficiently hacked off with the EU to pass a law requiring ANY Treaty modification to require a binding vote in Parliament. They are arguably far more Eurosceptic than the UK.

Being concerned about the level of immigration amd the inability to control it is neither racist nor xenophobic, its just asking that the UK be like the 150 other countries in the world not part of the EU

tricking people into voting a certain way by avoiding substantive debate?

Remain totally failed to show what the real figure was, eg “its ok it’s only £190m” per week and how that represented value for money when we have a trade deficit.

£363m a week comes from Government Budget report. You can ask the EU what our net contribution is and you will get more than 30 different answers. Chaos.

@br I am willing to bet our “exit” payment will be limited to MEP pensions or less. EU is facing massive budget problems with cost of Greek default and contagion, increased NATO member spending demanded by Trump, excessive national debts giving little room for manoeuvre all in the face of very weak economies already facing youth unemployment of 25-50%.

Kimbers. – why is leave synonymous with the right?

. The Leave campaign are no doubt grateful for your efforts, you were really stitched up like a kipper.

:D. A tad too subtle perhaps!!! 😀

Is this what our democracy has come to – tricking people into voting a certain way by avoiding substantive debate? Sad.

You misunderstand the tactic, they weren’t trying to trick people to vote for them, they were trying to trick the other side into spending time arguing on territory that suited them. You always want to fight on the terrain that suits you, that has been the case since time immemorial, Cicero certainly understood its importance.

Kimbers. – why is leave synonymous with the right?

Because the right are wrong and Leave is wrong too.

]£363m a week comes from Government Budget report. You can ask the EU what our net contribution is and you will get more than 30 different answers. Chaos.

Jambas you guys won. It’s ok. You do not need to keep posting stuff that is untrue. Enjoy the victory but don’t kick the unfortunates when they are down. That too much!!!

At least he is partially correct 😉

they were trying to trick the other side into spending time arguing on territory that suited them. You always want to fight on the terrain that suits you,

Always true but leave were also weak on those grounds, the lies were there to make it all sound worse and keep the lies in the press.

Oh, it was indeed cranberry that posted the 90% figure! Sheesh, I should coffee before posting. My apologies, Jambalaya.

Looking at that post again – the “cars catching fire” bit is odd. The Dutch set fireworks off in the street for newyears, EVERYWHERE. But they only do it for 4 days a year ‘else it’s illegal*.

Not sure what that has to do with anything, however.

*they do also do this, however. ALL THE SODDING TIME. FOR DAYS AND DAYS…

[video]https://youtu.be/m7D029mTgAM[/video]

The Dutch far right party is predicted to get 21% in the legislative elections and have very little influence as it’s a proportional representation system, Jamba. The Dutch population is very much in favour of the Euro and less eurosceptic than the UK. They express their euroscepticism by voting against changes to EU treaties and proposing reforms. Just as the UK could have done while still a member but will no longer have any say at all in.

Les Echos on the Netherlands.