For perspective:

In an analysis of the government’s balance sheet, the National Audit Office highlighted that although a host of government reforms had helped to generate cash and reduce pension costs in the longer term, the overall liability stood at around £1,493bn across more than 100 legally separate schemes in the 2014-15 Whole of Government Accounts.

http://www.publicfinance.co.uk/news/2016/06/public-sector-pension-liabilities-increase-third-nao-finds

And the DExEU gravy train is just pulling out the station.

BnD – what about public sector pensions then? Total ponzi scheme. And in the real world, Tata and Port Talbot?

The EU issue is just bad due diligence on behalf of the BSers, not that they did proper due diligence.

and people wonder why there was a vote to detach from the gravy train for eurocrats

I don’t think many of the leavers voted on anything remotely reasonable like pension deficits but I digress.

I’ll just put this here…

Squirrel; Dont waste your time. The self-styled Sweaty lover( his chummy term for us) has decided why a large % of us like the idea of being independent. No amount of rationally pointing out why will change his view. He hinted at it in his Mel Gibson remark.

Don’t use that term duckie it’s not allowed – racist dont you know – and you will get a holiday.

It’s very clear why people voted no – its better for the people of Scotland. You don’t need a Sassenach to tell you that.

And if you really believe that Sturgeon is talking in your best interests, then as before, good luck to you. As we saw with Brexit, facts have been thrown away in the posttruth politics world. Your correct in your earlier assessment – in a world devoid of facts, the SNP have everything as planned.

If youse (?) want to be taken in by it, so be it. Good luck.

Don’t use that term duckie it’s not allowed

You mean you no longer use it since you got told off.

I think this is where you lecture us on not playing the man

You do realise you don’t know what post truth politics is, right?

You just have to hope that people can forget and forgive the historical past long time ago.

WTF?!?

If Scotland leaves it will be because of recent history, and the future.

If Scotland leaves it will be because of recent history, and the future.

Very true, like the BSers, those of the generations of recent history who have enjoyed the benefits of union and have bought forward consumption through an excessive use of debt now wish to deprive future generations of the same benefits and saddle them with the costs of our consumption. We are truly the selfish generation.

Oh and they have to fund the ponzi scheme that is (some of) our pensions.

Well wee eck is on QT tonight so the BS will be flowing in full.

kelvin – Member

You just have to hope that people can forget and forgive the historical past long time ago.

WTF?!?

If Scotland leaves it will be because of recent history, and the future. [/quote] I am referring to some still hold old grudges against the South so use that as justification for independence.

If the people have decided to vote leave what can you do? Force them to stay? The only way you can delay them leaving is to ask them to fill in tonnes of paper works but eventually, no matter how painful, they will get the paper works done and move on.

If you want to prevent them leaving then you must provide a strong reason for them to stay. You can bang on and on about how poor people will become if they gain independence but do you think they will reverse their vote to stay because of money? Is the economy(money) the only incentive?

People must be emotionally satisfied so if you start accusing them of irrational etc do you think that will satisfy their emotional needs to reverse their voting pattern?

You’ll have to elaborate, what “future benefits” would I be depriving my daughter of? It’s exacly because of the loss of benefits I’d consider leaving. The benefits of freedom of movement and the single market trump the political direction the rest of the UK seems to be taking.

If you want to prevent them leaving then you must provide a strong reason for them to stay. You can bang on and on about how poor people will become if they gain independence but do you think they will reverse their vote to stay because of money? Is that the economy the only incentive? People must be emotionally satisfied so if you start accusing them of irrational etc do you think that will satisfy their emotional needs to reverse their voting pattern?

Christ on a bike, completely agree with this.

In remarks that are likely to infuriate prominent Brexiters in the British government, Mr Tusk set out a bleak picture for the negotiations to come between the UK and the rest of the EU, saying that there would be no winners, only losers

Tusk plays it straight – cue talk about EU bullying from the BSers 😉

I suspect tusk means there will he losers on both sides of the negotiation

Its a local country for local people. http://www.nme.com/filmandtv/news/-the-league-of-gentlemen-are-plotting-a-brexity-re/419519?

I agree with him there. A lose:lose – I have argued that for a long time.

Blimey even the Torygraph are looking bleak about Brexit and this was before Tusk’s comments

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/10/13/standard–poors-warns-on-uk-reserve-currency-status-as-brexit-ha/

BnD – what about public sector pensions then? Total ponzi scheme. And in the real world, Tata and Port Talbot?

Yes but they aren’t what is being discussed, the Eurocrats are on pensions that would make an MP blush

The EU issue is just bad due diligence on behalf of the BSers, not that they did proper due diligence.

I don’t remember the remain campaign stating “don’t leave because the Eurocrat pensions will shaft us on Brexit” it could have been worth 3%

Scotland voting out is potentially good news. Brexit brings some short term pain for the UK as a whole but now there’s a chance to mitigate that by cutting the purse strings north of the border and letting Scotland get on and pay more for public services just like they are always talking about – but at their cost.
So more money left for the impoverished English regions. Win Win.
If we get to see less Salmond and Sturgeon on the telly that will a positive result as well.

Perfect example of the idiotic, xenophobic, nationalist fwckwittery that has characterised this disaster

I like Tusk. No lack of clarity there!

Blimey someone finally talking som sense on Brexshit – Amol Rajan – on the first question.

All the others seem to think that this is a unilateral decision rather than a negotiation. How stupid is that?

Thornberry v Oakeshott in a mud wrestling contest 😀 BBC1 now

Dude with the afro on qt, binary!

I really dislike Tusk, but I can’t fault his straight talking in this case. If anything, if you manage not to make the mistake of thinking what they are saying is bullying, the senior Eurocrats actually seem to want to be helpful to the UK. I note his suggestion that it is still possible for Brexit not to happen…

Johnson’s glib cake comment coming back to bite us all in the arse,

To all who believe in it, I propose a simple experiment. Buy a cake, eat it, and see if it is still there on the plate.
“The brutal truth is that Brexit will be a loss for all of us. There will be no cakes on the table. For anyone. There will be only salt and vinegar

It appears we have our ‘red line’ i.e. whatever Brexit looks like we must have control of our boarders, and the EU has it’s ‘red line’ which is if you want access to the single market you need to accept free movement of people. Unless compromises on these issues can be made on both sides then there will be no ‘soft Brexit’.

Despite the political manoeuvring from the opposition and remainers it was obvious what people were voting for in the referendum – it was absolutely and utterly about sovereignty and control of our boarders.

Brexit won’t harm our prospects, but uncertainty will. I hope someone is doing the analysis about the damage uncertainty will do during a long and protracted negotiation over these two key points that might be insurmountable. It might be better to just pull out of the single market altogether and crack on with finishing the deal ASAP rather than having 2 years of uncertainty only to arrive at the same conclusion – at least then there will be no uncertainty around what type of Brexit we’ll have.

Brexit won’t harm our prospects

What??

wobbliscott, who is picking up Farages pension costs. There is no way we can just walk away, minor detail of EU accrued liabilities and how much is our responsibility.

As for no harm, if you believe the French US banks are already planning to leave London and take with them a fair amount of tax revenue. Other banks may well do the same. I am sure that Renault will be looking at Nissan and considering whether it makes more sense to manufacture elsewhere.

There is also the minor issue that it appears that the home office openly lied about the number of student overstayers. Impending inflation, etc. Everything is just adding to a very toxic atmosphere.

it was absolutely and utterly about sovereignty and control of our boarders.

Was it – lots of protest votes, lots of I never thought we would leave type stuff as well. Have you a link to a credible survey as I am genuinely interested in seeing some research on this

Brexit won’t harm our prospects, but uncertainty will

Even the brexiters generally want to retain access to the free market as everyone knows we will be harmed by leaving/having less access

that really is hope over facts
Ridiculous thing to say

Is there anyway we can be sure that our current “leaders” aren’t Chinese stooges put in place to bring down our economy so that we can welcome our communist saviours with open arms?
They’ve taken over Africa without firing a shot, maybe we are next.

Is there anyway we can be sure that our current “leaders” aren’t Chinese stooges put in place to bring down our economy so that we can welcome our communist saviours with open arms?

So they’re not lizards?

Brexit won’t harm our prospects,

Welcome to the parallel universe inhabited by Brexiters

Agreed that uncertainty harms us too, but my industry is already seeing loss of funding thanks to brexishambles. It already has harmed our prospects.

it was obvious what people were voting for in the referendum – it was absolutely and utterly about sovereignty and control of our boarders

I think you might have thought you were voting for that but a lot of people thought it was for something else

THM – at risk of dragging this off topic do you have an answer to my question?

Feel free to start another topic if you feel this is going to get dragged well off course.

Brexit will massively enhance our prospects, massively.

bring down our economy

Manufacturing up (due to lower pound)
Record service sector revenues (lower pound helps a lot)
Best growth of G7 nations
….

I see the Germans have a little more hard data that the UK Government will share with us. As noted Germany with its different welfare system is able to prevent EU nationals claiming benefits which they will do until they have been working in Germany for 5 years.

130,000 EU Nationals claim unemployment benefit at an annual cost of €800m (£720m)
450,000 claim in-work benefits, this represnts 1 in 8 of EU Nationals – I would wager this is a much higher percentage than German Nationals
135,000 from Bulgaria and Romania being the largest two nationalities who work but require welfare support

Very clear EU Nationals are more likely to be in lower paid jobs and having to be subsidised by the Government.

Welcome to the parallel universe inhabited by Brexiters

Very odd isn’t it. I’m wondering at what point they are going to realise that it’s a complete clusterf*** and all their fantasies about being free from the evil empire are just that, fantasy. It seems pretty clear to anyone with half a brain that nothing good is going to come out of this. The tragedy is that there’s still time to stop it and pull back from the brink, but of course we won’t, we’ll career over the cliff because those in power don’t have the courage to acknowledge the cold hard reality of the hole we’ve put ourselves in, or because they cynically see an opportunity to consolidate their power no matter what damage it does to the country.

The only positive I can see is that when the sh*t really hits the fan after we press the button, and things start unravelling in a couple of year’s time, the tories are going to be so tainted and discredited that their chances at the next election will not be the shoe-in that everyone assumes.

Brexit will massively enhance our prospects, massively.

Why? How? Serious question BTW. I’ve yet to read a convincing argument for this that isn’t based on jingoistic optimism and pipe-dreams. It’s a fact that the EU will seek to make the UK suffer economically from brexit, it’s a fact that trade will be much more expensive, it’s a fact that the pound will be weaker, it’s a fact that there will be less inward investment to the UK, it’s a fact that the UK will have less influence internationally. So how is this enhancing our prospects?

Brexit will massively enhance our prospects, massively.

Did anyone else read that out in trump voice or was it just me?

We have the best prospects, like my hands, massive. Everyone says so.

if you believe the French US banks are already planning to leave Londo

The French have an election going on, make of that what you will.

French are trying to attract financial services, this is nothig new they have been trying for years. Why woukd any bank go to France when its impossible to fire anyone without 2 years of 80% salary, where national insurance starts out at 100%, where anyone making €1m pa faces employer NI of 66% or where personal taxes are substantially higher ?

US Investment banks are in London not least as the UK is their most important market, countries like France and Germany have very restrictive corporate law which meams there is little advisory business for them there other than dull, low fee bond issuance.

Mark to market in 5 and 10 years. By that time the EU quite possibly won’t exist.

Manufacturing up, best growth in G7, etc. Facts dear boy, facts.

Once the impact of the lower currency kicks in we are going to move further ahead in growth terms. There will be so e inflation / higher prices but we have been far below BoE target and we will be encouraged to spend more on UK products and less on imports is good for our economy.

Very clear EU Nationals are more likely to be in lower paid jobs and having to be subsidised by the Government.

which is terrible, oh wait

Providing for the migrants and refugees is adding to German government spending. Partly as a result of this, the growth rate of government consumption in Germany has risen from an average of 2.5% year on year in the first half of 2015 to 4.1% in the first half of 2016.

This amounts to a fiscal stimulus worth 0.3% of GDP. The mostly state-financed consumer spending of migrants and refugees and the impact on housing construction add to that.

The German bank says the number of new arrivals has fallen sharply this year for a number of reasons, including the German government’s decision to tighten its policies since early 2016. It follows a huge surge in 2015, when about 890,000 asylum seekers went to Germany, adding 1.1% to the resident population.

The equivalent annual number for 2016 is about 160,000-170,000, which the bank says should be manageable in “economic, fiscal and political terms

meanwhile our xenophobic self harm referenmdum spectacular does nothing to our ageing poorly educated population = demographic timebomb

Manufacturing up (due to lower pound)

and yet our trade defecit is widening and construction is down, still with a chronic housing crisis and a skills shortage about to be made far worse by a hard brexit 😯

Record service sector revenues (lower pound helps a lot)

until the banks relocate to single market countries, and falling £ means for the real world… increased food prices, petrol prices etc

Best growth of G7 nation

thanks in part to our access to the EU single market, yet with our own currency in our unique position within the EU !