You and GrahamS seems the rare exceptions that everyone seems to like even if they dont always agree with you.

On the other hand, people don’t like me even when they do agree with me…

Clearly I lack this skill so its fair enough to say it.

Probably just a lack of protein in your diet 😉

Davis is still shouting his Taking back control speech at mp, and still unable to explain his plans for Brexit.

zippykona – Member
Chewk,what kind of hardship?

Paper works. You need to have all your paper works in place in order for you to live and work all over the world. i.e. paper works to comply with the rules & laws of your host country like qualifications etc.

If you do not have the paper works in place then you need to work hard to get them. Just like me. I have gathered all the necessary paper works to qualify me to work as minor bureaucrat all over the world. I am now very good at ensuring I have all the paper works in place.

Stow away on the back of a lorry, paddle across the sea?

Not me coz I am a bureaucrat and I can deal with all bureaucratic system with ease, therefore I don’t have to paddle across the sea or jump off the back of lorry. I follow the rules. We bureaucrats Must stick to the rules regardless of who you are or what you are regardless of condition. We Must stick to the rules.

I quite like my current option of loading up my car and driving down to majorca.

If you have that choice that can make you happy why on earth do you have to put yourself through all this unhappiness now when you can simply gain your happiness instantly at Majorca?

BruceWee – Member

Yes, it is binding. Absolutely.

It’s not legally binding. It’s advisory. [/quote]
Democratically it is binding. Unless you oppose democracy in which case you fiddle with the details to prevent the system working.

Well, I’m quite liking Kier Starmer’s performance today – some opposition at last.

Chewk I’m 51 , left school with minimal qualifications and not a millionaire. What paperwork do I need that will let me move to Australia?
I really don’t see that I should have to go and get a degree so that I can go and live in Spain.

Democratically it is binding. Unless you oppose democracy

As above, which you haven’t answered: unilaterally making decisions about the future direction of this country after Brexit, decisions that will impact everyone living here, decisions that you have no mandate for, without debating those decisions in a democratically-elected parliament, THAT is “opposing democracy”.

Regarding the tone of Chewkw’s comments, perhaps he has been reading the Express lately?

There is an interesting article in the Independent online about the rising intolerance of alternative political views expressed in our wonderful right wing tabloids.
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/…-a7357591.html

These newspapers and their commentators are implying that those who disagree with them should be silenced, locked up even. That we are traitors.

The Mail and the Express seem to have decided they simply do not recognise the legitimacy of people who have a different political position.

These newspapers preen themselves as champions of free speech and traditional British liberties. Yet they are seeking to delegitimise contrary political views, to silence them through intimidation and the implied threat of violence.
To suggest that people should be locked up because they hold an alternative view to their own is surely not something anyone should accept in our ‘free’ society

molgrips – Member
Honestly you don’t really know how the system is set up. You’re not alone either so don’t take this as an insult.

I am incapable of being insulated. Please express yourself at will coz I have no problem whatsoever. I like it. The same cannot be said for our forum members unfortunately.

The UK is a representative democracy. That means that you vote for an MP and they join in parliament and it’s parliament that rules. Not us.

Yes, yes, I roughly know the concept/rules …

Very simple. What if MPs refuse to acknowledge people’s will by voting against the people will what do you think is going to happen? Ya, you are now in the process of establishing or creating “new” kind of Politburo. Democracy is dead! Long live Politburo!

And the referendum was explicitly stated as only advisory.

Comparing referendum to the principle of Democracy which do you think is more important? i.e. The concept of Democracy where the entire Western civilisation is built upon or the minority that object to the outcome of democratic referendum.

You refuse to acknowledge the democratic outcome of a referendum then you have made the entire Western Civilisation is a joke with no legs to stand on. If that is the case then Democracy is slowly deteriorating as a concept and other nations should refuse to acknowledge such system.

(jimw’s link: http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/daily-mail-brexit-daily-express-the-sun-tabloids-language-political-intolerance-traitors-a7357591.html )

zippykona – Member
Chewk I’m 51 , left school with minimal qualifications and not a millionaire. What paperwork do I need that will let me move to Australia

Me mate could not even speak English let alone write them properly yet he is now in NZ working for Harley Davison motorbike company as mechanic. He retrained for 2 to 3 years and eventually got a job there. He then migrated there with his family.

You speak the same language, same culture, perhaps even same ancestral linkage and you cannot even be arsed to scarifice a few year of your life to retrain to go over?

Me mate is about the same age as you! The bloke has NO qualification apart from the certificate gained from Harley Davison as mechanic.

I really don’t see that I should have to go and get a degree so that I can go and live in Spain.

You Do Not have to get a degree! Just something to demonstrate that you are qualify to do something like plumber, electrician etc … I mean most of the ones I know have the basic qualification to do the physical work. Just make sure the qualification is legit and you are good to go.

You refuse to acknowledge the democratic outcome of a referendum then you have made the entire Western Civilisation is a joke with no legs to stand on. If that is the case then Democracy is slowly deteriorating as a concept and other nations should refuse to acknowledge such system.

to use a fairly crude analogy, it is as if we had a referendum on whether to move, or to stay still. We voted to move.

Now we have to decide where to move, when to move, how far, how fast, in which direction.

This is all still to be decided. Should the people (or their representatives in parliament) have a say in this? Or should they be told to shut up – they voted to move and that’s the end of it?

because majority of the people have voted to leave.

This is a blatant untruth

Does this kind of thing really sound like “democracy” to you chewkw?

“Silence” the “snake-like treachery” of the “unpatriotic” opposition. Punish them. Clap them in the Tower. They “must take what’s coming to them”

😯

doris5000 – Member
Now we have to decide where to move, when to move, how far, how fast, in which direction.

You lot are really impatient.
PM May said no running commentaries so everything is as it is for now.
Once PM May signed the paper at the beginning of next year then perhaps you may want to provide your wisdom by arguing until your face is blue.
In the meantime, just relax … chill … chillax.

This is all still to be decided. Should the people (or their representatives in parliament) have a say in this? Or should they be told to shut up – they voted to move and that’s the end of it?

You can argue until your face is blue once PM May signed the paper to trigger proper exit within the next two years.

Therefore, let PM May sign the paper first.

After that you can argue until your face is blue.

rkk01 – Member

because majority of the people have voted to leave.

This is a blatant untruth [/quote] Sometimes even the Devil cannot fiddle with the details in order to manipulate the truth.

Sometimes even the Devil cannot manipulate the truth by fiddling the details. (this sounds better)

Graham and theocb well said ^. sadly like to fall on deaf ears

Back on topic – as much as I dislike the decision and distrust the motives of the three BSers in charge, the government really do have to be left to get on with much of this. We voted for Brexshit and this will be delivered in a hard, lumpy format or a soft one. Either way it will stink. But we cant be checking spools at every twist and turn of the U-bend.

Absurd to listen to some Tory backbencher BSer arguing that it was all about trade. Doh, that is what it should have been at the start instead of all the xenophobic nonsense and lies that marked the debate (sic). from the start, we had a simple question – what is the best arrangement that facilitates trade with our largest trading partner. We had avoided € and Shengen and the rest was just silly noise. Sadly the real debate didnt happen and we have thrown the near-perfect toy out of the pram (excuse the mixed metaphors)

Barmy

Therefore, let PM May sign the paper first.

Except they are making decisions, agreeing on the way forward and deciding our negotiating positions and goals NOW.

I’d rather not be in a situation where we are left saying “Actually the vast majority of the British public didn’t want to (rejoin the EFTA / deport all the foreigners / keep paying the EU / give up free trade)* but now you’ve kind of steered us irrevocably down that path without even discussing it with us.”

*delete as appropriate.

GrahamS – Member
Does this kind of thing really sound like “democracy” to you chewkw

I really don’t want to insult your intelligence but do you really believe the news from that newspaper or any news as a matter of fact?

“Silence” the “snake-like treachery” of the “unpatriotic” opposition. Punish them. Clap them in the Tower. They “must take what’s coming to them”

I mean really.

GrahamS – Member

Therefore, let PM May sign the paper first.

Except they are making decisions, agreeing on the way forward and deciding our negotiating positions and goals NOW.[/quote] That’s Govt’s role.

I really don’t want to insult your intelligence but do you really believe the news from that newspaper or any news as a matter of fact?

It’s not “news”, it is opinion.

Powerful hateful divisive invective that tries to mould the opinions of the millions that will read it.

And it is pretty damn far from “democratic”

That’s Govt’s role.

No. That is PARLIAMENT’s role.

GrahamS – Member
It’s not “news”, it is opinion.

Powerful hateful divisive invective that tries to mould the opinions of the millions that will read it.

And it is pretty damn far from “democratic”
You want to curb opinions? What about opposing opinions? Should we curb them too?

No. That is PARLIAMENT’s role.

Like I said previously PM May will sign the paper to exit then you can decide and debate until everyone’s face is blue. My understanding is that govt is doing what govt supposed to do. i.e. background work.

Not running commentaries.

My understanding is that govt is doing what govt supposed to do. i.e. background work.

As you’d need too, if you were suddenly faced with a situation of which you’d previously had no prior warning, and you also had no previous knowledge – not even 40 years or so – of how these organisations actually functioned.

Because if that wasn’t the case then you’d either be either

a) A totally clueless ****-wit who was making it up as they went along
b) A devious bastard who was flagrantly distorting the situation to further an unspoken agenda you wanted kept from both parliament and the people

Because if that wasn’t the case then you’d either be either

a) A totally clueless ****-wit who was making it up as they went along
b) A devious bastard who was flagrantly distorting the situation to further an unspoken agenda you wanted kept from both parliament and the people

You could be *both* of those things of course….

You want to curb opinions? What about opposing opinions? Should we curb them too?

No, I don’t.

The people that wrote those articles are the ones saying that the opposing opinions are “disgusting” “unpatriotic” “treachery” “cannot go unpunished” and must be silenced.

I’m the one saying that wanting to curb mainstream opinions because you don’t agree with them is undemocratic.

My understanding is that govt is doing what govt supposed to do. i.e. background work.

Did you watch any of the Tory conference or listen to any of the news? They are not quietly doing “background work”. They are setting out our stall. And while they are at it they are using the vote as a mandate for introducing measures that no one asked for.

Like I said previously PM May will sign the paper to exit then you can decide and debate..

No actually she caved and there will be some debate on the negotiating strategy, as there blimming well should be in a democracy.

My god can you lot not get on to the they real issue, a free Yorkshire (an it better be cheap). Once again an international bike race has been awarded to Yorkshire, not England or the UK but gods country Yorkshire.
ITs about time we had a freedom for Yorkshire referendum, that there Scotlandshire could tag along with us.

Cry Freedom, cry Yorkshire! Makes me cry every time I hear Northern Power House.

Here’s a thought. Since Article 50 says that it can be invoked by a member state “in accordance with its own constitutional requirements” then isn’t the EU going to have to verify that it is being invoked in accordance with the UK’s own constitutional requirements?

I mean, presumably if I rocked up to the EU and said “We’re invoking Article 50. Don’t worry, I checked, it’s in accordance with our constitutional requirements. OK, bye.” then you would hope they would have a lawyer check that I was allowed to invoke Article 50.

Presumably when May invokes Article 50 then the EU is going to have to check that she actually has the right to?

Just take one look at the absolute headbangers people presently trying to silence any debate. John Redwood? Bill Cash? Paul Dacre? Jacob Rees Mogg? Just look at the ultra-right wing, frankly bonkers policies and agenda’s they champion.

And they want to be left to get on with it all behind closed doors, with no democratic oversight?

Given that they’re effectively being handed a blank sheet of paper to re-write this countries constitution, are you happy with the editor of the Daily Mail, and his mates, being the ones to do that? And for them to just give us a shout when they’ve finished?

Just skim-reading the last page, noting jamby’s continued absence and chewkw’s somwhat rampant bellicose BS, has anyone seen those two in the same room?

And they want to be left to get on with it all behind closed doors, with no democratic oversight?

That’s why we have an opposition.

Oh, wait….

If i ever start arguing i am always polite and considered in my opinions

you believe in an unevidenced sky fairy

Doesn’t look very polite or considered. Actually it reads as damn insulting. There are numerous terms you could have used there; deity, god & omnipotent being for example but instead you choose to use a childish insult. Tell me, how many thersauruses do you think have “sky fairy” listed as a synonym of deity?

That was Jamba level.

TBH i think we all many of us debate in a more robust manner on here than ofline
For example three of my closest friends are devoutly religious and a friend from school now teaches RE. I am not as rude to religious folk in the real world as I am on here but they all know how strong my views are but that I respect their choice.

So you’re a self acknowledged keyboard warrior. Says even more about you that you think it’s fine to talk to folk like this when it’s anonymous but wouldn’t do the same in real life.

Anyway, moving on…

More evidence that the fall of the pound will be good for the economy*

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/oct/12/tesco-running-low-key-unilever-brands-price-row-supplier-supermarket-falling-pound?CMP=fb_gu

*strong sarcasm

Doesn’t look very polite or considered. Actually it reads as damn insulting. There are numerous terms you could have used there; deity, god & omnipotent being for example but instead you choose to use a childish insult. Tell me, how many thersauruses do you think have “sky fairy” listed as a synonym of deity?

Invisible friend?

That’s why we have an opposition.

Oh, wait….

Indeed. But luckily it appears the less unhinged elements of the Tory party appear ready to step up to the plate. And in the midst of all this right wing triumphalism, Theresa seems to have forgotten a very important fact. She has a majority of only 12.

Or maybe that’s the very reason she wants this kept out of parliament. Because she knows full well that she hasn’t got a hope of getting this ‘hard Brexit’ nonsense past her own party if it goes to a vote

Point 1 – Clearly I am accepting i am rude sometimes on here so I am not sure why you did that – was it to be rude ?
Point 2- you have deliberately misrepresented what i said on order to paint the worst picture with the choice of keyboard warrior- was it to be rude?

that both of these should happen whilst you are appealing for greater politeness is amusing

as i said yes I am,sometimes, rude and now we have established you are but you wish others were not so yes lets move on

FWIW the only definition i found was in the urban dictionary – well known for its politeness
and it was this

The name of any god, spirit or divine presence of which there is no evidence

Not that rude really but certainly dismissive of religion.
the definition of keyboard warrior is much less polite its a bit long so here is a link
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Keyboard%20Warrior

I dont know what it says about irony 😉

.

At the risk of going further down the rabbit hole, and not specifically in defence of JY, I think there’s an important distinction between respecting someone’s right to a view or belief and respecting the belief itself. I think it’s absolutely right that anyone can believe in whatever they choose, but believe in something that is obviously (to me anyway) ridiculous and I reserve the right to ridicule. Again, it’s the belief that is ridiculed not the right of the person to hold said belief. I don’t see that belief in the christian god is any more or less ridiculous than belief in the flying spaghetti monster, so to me they are equally fair game.

It’s another thing altogether when there are some points of view so objectionable that I don’t think a person has a right to hold them. I’m taking here about racism for example. In those cases I think it’s important to challenge those beleifs very robustly indeed.

This article kind of sums things up nicely. Brexit means… what ever the eu wants it to mean.

The Brexit command is totally deluded about there own power or negotiating strength. It may go down well to get U.K. Votes to knock the eu but it makes for a terrible negotiating strategy.

I find it really interesting the control of language that brexit has. The brexit vote was a slight majority in favour but somehow has become an overwhelming mandate. A brexit campaign that campaigned on the money we could save , sovereignty and a declining Europe becomes about resolutely controlling immigration.

To all whom it concerns-
A. This is serious
B. We have a narrow marginal vote for Brexit (but it is a vote for Brexit)
C. We have an unelected PM with significant power
D. Those in charge of Brexit are shall we say are questionable
E. Our elected representatives have no vote on the terms (therefore we have no vote – forget the referendum folks it’s done)

So in conclusion our collective future (regardless of politics) has been handed to an unelected pm and the gang of four (of which Hammond is the only nervous about brexit rep)

How is this democracy? A 4% swing vote of the voters has handed 5 people the future of this country with what appears to be little accountability? To parody Churchill never have so many been so dependent on so few.

47% (probably a lot more now the realisation is setting in) of this country has NO representation politically or economically- I think this is as close as it is possible to get to a dictatorship within the UK.

I have seen some shit in my 53 years and after Thatcher; Miners strikes etc I never thought anything more divisive would ever happen. Well here we are.

well at least they have the carefully laid out manifesto promises to fulfill.

oh wait, no hang on. it was a load of screaming bullshit by liars.

Not generally a fan on Tesco’s business practices but at least they have “called out”
Unilever for trying to up prices on British goods due to Brexit / £

Boarding – just bored really, same old stuff same old thread conduct so why bother. Maybe for amusement I should dig up all the abuse and ridicule I got when I said I was actively campaigning for Leave. How many here stood on street stalls or dropped leaflets round for Remain ? An object lesson in winning nothing by arguing on an internet forum