[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

Mining was not an unskilled industry in the 80's. Thousand employed as pit managers, engineers, safety advisors, pit designers, cutting machine opearatives and fitters and all the industries this serves.

To say they should all be fruit picking is very simplistic.

The same could be said of all the bank managers, asset managers, bank clerks, directors, restraunteurs and shop keepers in Canary Wharf after the crash in 2008. How darw the proles suggest such a thing.

Ditto farm labouring, too hard too poorly paid (note another STWer posted on another thread something like "yes its far to hard who would do that for the money on offer" - both he and I had done farm work when students)

Indeed, why do back breaking manual labour for minimum wage when you could make coffee for the same money?

Left in that situation, the manual employer is left with the choice of paying more to attract staff or hiring in a load of Romanians who will lap up the UK minimum wage compared with what they get paid at home.

It's nothing new, Why do you think that Oz, Barry, Neville and Bomber were living on a building site in Germany? However it sure as well pushes down domestic wages, because you only need to pay people enough to live ten to a portakabin or shipping container rather than people who need to earn enough to support a UK house and family.

when the poles first came over they worked like mad, did the work of 2 UK workers. 15 years down the line and they have to use Romanians to do the same jobs now as the Poles aren't interested in the mundane manual work any longer. Begs the question, what happens one day in the (not so distant) future when there is no-one willing to do the most shit jobs.

Anyway I'll let the Torybots keep following Dave and co.

So for all those complaining about immigrants undercutting wages what is a fair wage for picking veg?
How much more would you pay for your food?
The great shining light of immigration control of Australia relies heavily on backpackers for cheap labour and seasonal work, all of who arrive on a basic visa you pay a few quid for.

The bit a lot of people dont get is some of us see immigration as a positive, it actually works and is positive to the economy.

How much more would you pay for your food?

I don't think that it's an unreasonable proposition that we should expect to pay farmers more than the cost of production.

It's a strange world we live in when a bottle of milk is cheaper than a bottle of water.

Hora, please do not claim to speak for the working class.

if we come out will we sign up to it, or its equivalent, and then this will lead to the privitization of the NHS as a lot of this forum fear the conservatives want to do

However it sure as well pushes down domestic wages, because you only need to pay people enough to live ten to a portakabin or shipping container rather than people who need to earn enough to support a UK house and family

More unsubstantiated imipmigration nonsense - 136 pages in and anecdotes aside not a scrap of evidence to support the idea that immigration "sure as well pushes down domestic wages." Why? Because it doesn't exist. It's very simple. At best there are specific areas where it might have a small negative impact. Otherwise BS.

At least you attempt a rationale Ninfan, just a pity that it is not supported by any factual evidence. And the counter anecdote? I wrote a reference for a previous EE employee - she worked her way up in hospitality, bought a house, got married and is having a family. Not a portakabin in sight.

Good morning reading

https://next.ft.com/content/7c7f2dbe-3474-11e6-bda0-04585c31b153

Obviously it is hard to avoid all this misinformation and propoganda from both sides, and I was leaning towards in, but the uber-secret way that TTIP has been constructed combined with the content of TTIP is enough for me to seriously think that leave is the correct vote.

Corbyns idea of staying in to effect change is a nice idea but won't happen.

Bookmarked that. Thank you.

I'm seriously wavering as to in or out. The leave campaign has no real idea what would happen if we left and are pedalling a load of immigration bullshit, if we stay in we get more of what we have, I guess. More countries joining, more majority decision making from Brussels. The remain camp seem only able to pedal fear of unknown consequences.

My heart says leave. I despise the waste and inefficiency of the EU bureaucracy, the fact that we don't have a final say on things like trade deals and VAT.

My head says stay - a jump into the unknown may rock the boat and 10-20 years down the line what mess might we leave for our kids.

I don't want to make the wrong decision for the kids.

the fact that we don't have a final say on things like trade deals and VAT.

An awful lot of the big things the EU does need to be OK'd by each member, that includes us.

The remain camp seem only able to pedal fear of unknown consequences.

The official campaign, maybe, but there's lots of positive info and grassroots stuff about all the excellent things we have gained by being in the EU and what we'll continue to get if we remain.

More countries joining

Maybe, maybe not. No chance of Turkey or other countries which don't meet the criteria getting in any time soon at all.

but the uber-secret way that TTIP has been constructed combined with the content of TTIP is enough for me to seriously think that leave is the correct vote.

You seriously think the rabid Tories wouldn't cook up something even better were we out of the EU?

I despise the waste and inefficiency of the EU bureaucracy,

Is this waste any worse than the UK's? Any specific examples? And don't forget that if we wish to keep selling into the EU after Brexit, we'd still have to meet whatever regulations the EU puts in place, only we wouldn't have any control on what they were.

the fact that we don't have a final say on things like trade deals and VAT.

And I'm afraid that's just bollocks. We (the UK) have representatives that must ratify trade deals, and we have representatives that debate pretty much anything that's cooked up in Brussels. You'll also note that the Tories, not the EU, raised VAT from 17.5% to 20% in the UK 2011.

I think you'll find the remain campaign pedals fear that is backed by facts. Facts that are rather inconvenient for the jingoistic little Englander that resides inside most of us somewhere.

I don't want to make the wrong decision for the kids.

In which case, vote remain. There's a very good reason why the demographics of voters are skewed the way they are. The overwhelming majority of younger voters want to remain in as they see the opportunity membership provides. The fact that the Leave campaign is dominated by rich old white blokes with a hankering for a long lost Empire should be no surprise.

The comparison with the Scottish independence referendum is striking. In that, at least one side was trying its best to present a positive, hopeful case for the future, and in general it was lively but civilised on both sides.

This EU referendum is toxic. Both campaigns have peddled fear and lies - more so with the overt lies on the Leave side, but the Remain side haven't held back from Project Fear either.

At the start of the campaign, those of us in Scotland tried to remind the Remain team that Project Fear in Scotland turned a 30% lead into a narrow win, they didn't have that kind of margin to play with.

A pox on both their houses. This is what happens when both sides are run by Tories, playing out an internal party struggle and dragging us all into the gutter as they do.

This is what happens when both sides are run by Tories, playing out an internal party struggle and dragging us all into the gutter as they do.

+1

The positives of remaining are clear.

The EU exists to tie all our fortunes together. So that we have no choice but to work together for the greater good. This is a good thing. We become neighbours and friends, instead of enemies and rivals.

I've lived in two other EU countries. Many people I know have done similar. My Facebook fees is full of good friends from all over Europe. This is overwhelmingly positive, in my view. I was a migrant, and we all benefited.

The money that we pay to the EU, we get back and more in terms of trade and investment.

The positives of remaining are clear.

I agree with you, the Remain campaign could have risen above all this and played a positive, hopeful campaign. But they didn't, they ballsed it up.

This was posted by mikey74, but if you're even considering voting 'out', just watch this: the man has impeccable credentials btw-:

The other thing to note is that, if your response after you've seen it is "ah, another one of those experts!, they're in the pocket of the govt/Goldman Sachs/The Illuminati, I can now ignore this" then you are Nigel Farage and I claim my £5.

Cody, unfortunately we've entered a post-logic, post-fact world with this referendum. People are voting based on emotions, and the emotions are anger and fear.

The comparison with the Scottish independence referendum is striking. In that, at least one side was trying its best to present a positive, hopeful case for the future, and in general it was lively but civilised on both sides.

Ben I do admire your positivity even when it is misplaced - who said history was written by the winners!!! 😉

Zokes largely +1

We are a successful vibrant and OPEN economy that thrives on trade and investment. Membership of the EU provides an important boosts to both and to the other key drivers of national income (consumption and government spending)

Membership of the EU allows a cooperative and harmonious relationship with our closest trading partners and with the RoW. The two are not mutually exclusive.

The costs and obligations are minimal. Financial costs is <1% of GDP, we maintain sovereignty and control of key policy areas| - monetary, fiscal and supply side policies, independent Central Bank, floating exchange rate - our Parliament remains sovereign and we maintain control over our borders.

Again, I come back to the blank sheet of paper argument. Go away and write down how you would like to interact with our neighbours and closets trading partners. Write down the things that you would want and the things that you would seek to avoid. Step back, breathe, and look at what we have.

Don't then shoot the gift horse!

Anyway, run done, tennis next, rugby watching and ride to come later. Bon Samedi as nos amis would say!

This was posted by mikey74, but if you're even considering voting 'out', just watch this: the man has impeccable credentials btw-:
>

The other thing to note is that, if your response after you've seen it is "ah, another one of those experts!, they're in the pocket of the govt/Goldman Sachs/The Illuminati, I can now ignore this" then you are Nigel Farage and I claim my £5.

I think it's worth sharing wherever you can. However, trying to bring it to people's attention feels a bit like shouting "calm down" at a football riot.

[i]It's a strange world we live in when a bottle of milk is cheaper than a bottle of water. [/i]

That's marketing - it's not that the milk is too cheap but that the water is too expensive.

You seriously think the rabid Tories wouldn't cook up something even better were we out of the EU?

but that is the point, we can vote out the tories if they did something like this, whereas the EU is so removed from us we can't.

Watch the paxman documentary on the business of us voting stuff down.

I've watched the LSU video above, but the mere fact that TTIP had to be done in so much secrecy is outrageous, let alone the content.

The only upside is that more european leaders are starting to complain.

bencooper - Member
Cody, unfortunately we've entered a post-logic, post-fact world with this referendum. People are voting based on emotions, and the emotions are anger and fear.

Indeed we have Ben. I think the man's appeal to reason may be falling on deaf ears; the madness of crowds and all that.

I've watched the LSU video above, but the mere fact that TTIP had to be done in so much secrecy is outrageous, let alone the content.

I agree, but both of our 'main' parties seem perilously close to being pro-TTIP, so how would an exit help us here?

It's a strange world we live in when a bottle of milk is cheaper than a bottle of water.

That's marketing - it's not that the milk is too cheap but that the water is too expensive.

Except the milk [i]IS[/i] too cheap. But that is another argument and has nothing really to do with EU membership

If you don't go for ****y lifestyle brands of water. Water is cheaper than milk. Some of you should visit lidl once in a while! 😆

Or just turn on your tap, the stuff comes out of there pretty cheaply! 😆

@welsh how can British farmers compete with other parts of the EU where land is so much cheaper (and they have plenty of it) and wages are so much cheaper ?

Turner thanks for that L-Exit movie, very interesting 30 more mins to go

@cody et al I have listened to the Professor, will write up my notes and post later

TMH and @mefty the BoE said immigration depresses wages, Rose (ex M&S CEO) and chair or Remain said so too

As for Remain and Leave being dominated by the Tories Labour need to take a long hard look at the real reasons they have decided to be anonymous, is it really a short term "anything but the Tories" strategy or is it that really they and their leadership don't actually believe in the EU.

Corbyns not for ttip and there are quite a few tory mps against it as well, plus we wouldn't get ttip anyway, we might get something similar one day though.

@seaso yes indeed, tap water we already pay for and bottled water can be had for 20-30p a liter

I despise the waste and inefficiency of the EU bureaucracy

but that is the point, we can vote out the tories if they did something like this, whereas the EU is so removed from us we can't.

Actually all you can do is vote for your local mp, if the rest of the country votes for something different then that's what you get. Aiui we have some vetoes or exclusions over eu decisions so the UK as a part of the EU effectively has more power than your mp as a part of Parliament.

More unsubstantiated imipmigration nonsense - 136 pages in and anecdotes aside not a scrap of evidence to support the idea that immigration "sure as well pushes down domestic wages." Why? Because it doesn't exist. It's very simple. At best there are specific areas where it might have a small negative impact. Otherwise BS.

Dustmann, Frattini and Preston conclude that the [i]average[/i] effect may be mildly positive, Immigration clearly depresses wages below the 20th percentile - it's unacceptable to dismiss this with a wave of the hand as 'specific areas of the economy' since these are the people most heavily affected by the low skill, low pay cycle, often in post industrial areas where poverty rates are high and social inclusion low, the very areas that should have benefitted most from the creation of jobs

At least you attempt a rationale Ninfan, just a pity that it is not supported by any factual evidence. And the counter anecdote? I wrote a reference for a previous EE employee - she worked her way up in hospitality, bought a house, got married and is having a family. Not a portakabin in sight.

but that is the point, we can vote out the tories if they did something like this, whereas the EU is so removed from us we can't.

the uber-secret way that TTIP has been constructed combined with the content of TTIP is enough for me to seriously think that leave is the correct vote.

This Is called moving the goalposts- you are claiming your claim was something it was not rather than addressing your original claim

we have a veto @ the EU and sit at the top table as one of the big three we dont need to "vote them out"*
How do I vote out the lords and our head of ftste as it looks to me that they are elected and there by birthright...i can only imagine your reaction were the EU like this

* we can

This was posted by mikey74, but if you're even considering voting 'out', just watch this: the man has impeccable credentials btw-:

The other thing to note is that, if your response after you've seen it is "ah, another one of those experts!, they're in the pocket of the govt/Goldman Sachs/The Illuminati, I can now ignore this" then you are Nigel Farage and I claim my £5.

Very interesting thanks. Too many facts though, needs to be pared down to a catchy one word headline or an emotionally charged image to appeal to the Daily Mail/Express/Sun reading masses and compete with the vote leave campaign.

The main thing I'm taking from this referendum is that referendums are an extremely bad idea for something as important as this. The majority just don't have enough information or just aren't intelligent enough to be able to make an informed decision. And I'm including myself in that statement.

@welsh how can British farmers compete with other parts of the EU where land is so much cheaper (and they have plenty of it) and wages are so much cheaper ?

[IMG] [/IMG]

Actually all you can do is vote for your local mp, if the rest of the country votes for something different then that's what you get. Aiui we have some vetoes or exclusions over eu decisions so the UK as a part of the EU effectively has more power than your mp as a part of Parliament.

This Is called moving the goalposts- you are claiming your claim was something it was not rather than addressing your original claim

I defer to Corbyns arguments in that video I posted, as he knows better than me. He's changed his mind it seems, but that does seem based on being able to change the EU in the future.

But my case still stands, how could such an agreement even be thought up in the first place, and then to be done with such crazy amounts of secrecy.

If the tories had done such a thing you guys would all be frothing at the mouth, so I don't see why you accept it here.

I am trying to figure out if the OUTers have actually read the widely mis-quoted BoE report?

Obviously not Jambers. Or Boris for that matter:

[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/watch-the-moment-boris-johnson-admits-he-hasn-t-read-a-report-after-misquoting-it-a7082996.html ]Have you read it?[/url]

Mr Salmond, however, continued to interrogate the former London Mayor. He asked: “Have you read that study Boris? Have you actually read it,”

After a short silence, Mr Johnson replied: “I have not read that study”.

Mr Salmond added: “Can we just nail this because I’ve heard this from a number of people. So I’ve taken the trouble of reading the study… it says a 10 per cent rise in immigration would result in a one third of one pence diminution in average wages. One third of one pence."

jambalaya - Member
TMH and @mefty the BoE said immigration depresses wages, Rose (ex M&S CEO) and chair or Remain said so too

Nailed in the same article:

It comes as Lord Stuart Rose, the chair of the Remain campaign, said he had been misquoted over claims wages would go up if Britons voted to leave the EU – adding they would in fact go down.

He told the Guardian: “I would say this, wouldn’t I, but I was misquoted. I was asked a straight economic question … which is if labour goes down in availability, what happens to the cost of labour and the answer is simple economics, the cost of labour goes up.

“But that is not anything to do with the actual argument about whether we should or shouldn’t be in the bigger community. What we really have to be sure about is a continually growing economy, which I believe we have more chance of doing in a 500 million-person community and the largest economic bloc in the world.

BSers have no shame in misusing any stat.

Personally I would feel embarrassed to be caught out on every point in an argument. Obviously that have skins as thick as a rhino!

That diary graph is quite interesting, in that apparently our farmers can't compete with the lower costs of others but they somehow manage to export the best part of a £1bn.

but that is the point, we can vote out the tories if they did something like this, whereas the EU is so removed from us we can't.

Shifted goalposts aside, some points to consider:
1) 66% of the population voted the Tories out at the last election. Unfortunately due to our antidemocratic system, they're still there.
2) Our upper house is unelected
3) Our head of state is unelected
4) The heads of most branches of government apparatus in the civil service are unelected

Changing any of these four things would have a far greater material effect on the level of democratic control exerted by UK citizens than leaving the EU would. If we're all so het up about being told what to do by people we didn't put there*, why not get the guillotine out? I'm sure the French would lend us one, presumably without any import/export tariffs if we remain.

*EU elections aside 😉

This sums up my position quite nicely.

https://leftfootforward.org/2016/06/plaid-cymru-wales-outside-eu-will-be-at-the-mercy-of-westminister-elite/