molgrips - Member
I don't much like Sturgeon's rhetoric that Scotland stood by the EU whereas England and Wales didn't.
Here's the thing she isn't talking to you, (well she is but she isn't) we are now into the mega dealing phase where we all need to get our dress feathers and codpieces out and get strutting. Time to make the deals, press the flesh and do it. She needs something, we need something we all have to love to hate each other a little and see what happens.
And this is why people hate politics
[I]At least if I knew you had something to gain personally from this, I could rationalise what you are doing on this thread. [/I]
+1
Not wanting to speak for jamba, but in his absence, he has expressed a fair few fundamental objections to the way the EU operates and rules us, as well as the overall direction of the the EU project towards a European super-state.
That all seems fair enough to me. I don't personally agree but I think I understand his points.
It doesn't have to boil down to [i]personal[/i] gain or loss. Does it?
It doesn't have to boil down to personal gain or loss. Does it?
Well if you had backed Brexit hoping it would fail in order to become PM without having to actually cause Brexit you might be upset
It doesn't have to boil down to personal gain or loss. Does it?
Personal loss for many many people, yes.
Here's the thing she isn't talking to you, (well she is but she isn't)
Yeah she is, by implication. It was a divisive turn of phrase, that's all.
@Graham when you look at the post of Ernie's objections mine are pretty much identical. Thanks for your words.
As I said before in the short term Brexit is almost certainly negative for me, it's the medium and long term where the gains are for the country (when I will be retired) plus the principal of being an independent nation and sovereignty of Parliament.
What all this should tell us we should never ever have got ourselves into this EU headlock, straight-jacket, boa constrictors grip. Those who signed the Treaties which put us on that path should be held very publically accountable.
As for links and justifications as those who ask (demand ?) then do you really think your online behaviour towards me are going to lead to a position where I respond to any such requests ? As I said I focused my energies on campaigning, perhaps you should have done a bit more of the same. Posting links in response to others who have already made their mind up about the vote and about me - what's the point ? It's a waste of time.
Posting links in response to others who have already made their mind up about the vote and about me - what's the point ? It's a waste of time.
The point is so that you can be seen not to be fibbing. That really isn't to do with anyone's opinion of you or the vote.
At least someone is at the negotiating table
no two people are trying to score political points for their own purposes, as soon as the Catalans, Basques or Northern League try and do the same she won't get through the front door of the place
As for links and justifications as those who ask (demand ?) then do you really think your online behaviour towards me are going to lead to a position where I respond to any such requests ?
No simply, when you claim somebody said something and you read it just hit Ctrl^C then Ctrl^V
As for links and justifications as those who ask (demand ?) then do you really think your online behaviour towards me are going to lead to a position where I respond to any such requests ?
when do you reckon Medium starts? and how far back will the UK have gone before we get there?
As for links and justifications as those who ask (demand ?) then do you really think your online behaviour towards me
I think the problem is that by repeatedly making stuff up (the Jambafacts tag didnt appear without good reason) to back up you claims you lost the respect of the forum
The tactic didnt work here
sadly it seems to have worked out well for VL as a whole though
no two people are trying to score political points for their own purposes, as soon as the Catalans, Basques or Northern League try and do the same she won't get through the front door of the place
Yup. EU aint going to encourage nationalism, nor should they.
“Dumb British blonde ****s 15 million people at once.”
The tactic didnt work heresadly it seems to have worked out well for VL as a whole though
#Kimberfact
sadly it seems to have worked out well for VL as a whole though
I now see jamba's posts as something written on the side of a bus. If I was a lot cleverer I'd make a Chrome plugin to give others the option of displaying them in that way 🙂
If I was a lot cleverer I'd make a Chrome plugin to give others the option of displaying them in that way
If I was rich I would have paid for some bus adverts
If people were taking the piss out of me on the internet for trolling and/or making stuff up I'd find it fairly simple to just prove them wrong by posting a couple of sources rather than resorting to a playground attitude.
I also find it amusing that Jambaliar argues on the principle of an independent country, even in the face of economic arguments, when he's talking about the UK (which isn't a country) but is so totally unwilling to see the same point of view when talking about Scotland (which is a country). Not for the first time the hypocrisy is staggering.
I keep thinking of ways out of Brexit. My latest is: New PM has a vote in commons on submitting article 50. But tells us due to the close result of the referendum it will not be a 3 line whip. MPs may vote according to conscience. MPs vote no. Problem solved. PM cries a few crocodile tears...
If I can think of half a dozen face saving ways out you can be the Sir Humphreys will have more and better.
We aint leaving.
Or rather we aint leaving unless more detailed objective analysis by the establishment reveals it's a good idea.
I keep thinking of ways out of Brexit. My latest is: New PM has a vote in commons on submitting article 50. But tells us due to the close result of the referendum it will not be a 3 line whip. MPs may vote according to conscience
Well that has already been aired and the general objection is that MPs would find it difficult to vote in a different way to their constituencies. Mind you, there is a way around that - we didn't vote in constituencies but local authority areas.
I'm still pinning my hopes on some kind of protracted stand-off and then a tacit agreement that A50 will not be triggered. Along the lines of the countries that are still nominally at war with each other despite the actual fighting being over decades/centuries earlier.
[url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_extended_by_diplomatic_irregularity ]Someone forgot to do the paperwork[/url]
SOM - didnt we vote as individuals?
MPs would find it difficult to vote in a different way to their constituencies
But not more difficult that voting for article 51, unless you think that the consequences of pulling the article 51 trigger are pretty minor, in which case, who cares?
World Trade Organisation Tarifs. Possibly yet another thread and dicsussed a bit elsewhere already
Cameron said today that such a deal was not good for Britain, from what I've seen I don't agree. A few examples, have downloaded the tables from WTO to check further
Bike bits 4% - well as most come from Taiwan anyway we already pay that. So import directly and buy from uk seller or shock horror even a bike shop with real people working there
10% cars - we must already pay that on Japanese, Korean and American cars. Not a big deal and despite 200% taxes people in Singapore still buy many cars (not proposing that but shows how able people are to buy cars)
37% on some dairy products - well we have grass and cows too
More to follow I bet you can't wait 8)
it's not just about the magnitude of the duties, it's also about the paperwork, the customs hold-ups, the differing standards, the generalised frictional bullshit at the border. All that inefficient bureacracy that we want to get rid of, no? Single market makes that go away.
Not a big deal and despite 200% taxes people in Singapore still buy many cars
From wiki: The per-capita car ownership rate in Singapore is 149 cars per 1000 people vs 519 in the UK. So we bought three times as many cars as they did.
High taxes on cars leads to some crazy things happening in island nations.
Look at places like Sri Lanka where cars are appreciating assets due to restrictions on import.
jambalaya - Member
World Trade Organisation Tarifs. Possibly yet another thread and dicsussed a bit elsewhere alreadyCameron said today that such a deal was not good for Britain, from what I've seen I don't agree. A few examples, have downloaded the tables from WTO to check further
You have won know - it ok - no need to keep making things up. Relying solely on the WTO option is the worst of all the possible solutions
If the UK simply relied on WTO rules it would set its own import tariffs. But if it kept tariffs at zero with EU countries it would have to lower tariffs unilaterally with all other WTO members where it did not have a preferential trade agreement, giving up a key bargaining position in negotiating new trade arrangements. The alternative would be to raise tariffs with the EU with implications for UK prices and higher costs for consumers.#fakecontrol
Only the WTO alternative would free the UK from all the formal obligations that come with access to the Single Market. Under any of the alternatives, the potential gains from additional regulatory flexibility on leaving the EU would likely be significantly constrained in practice, either because of the impact on domestic policy aims or because of the UK’s wider international obligations. In any case, any such potential gains would be significantly outweighed by the losses from the additional regulatory barriers to trade from no longer being a member of the Single Market.
#fakecontrol
As I recall, if we went with the WTO option, "Business for Britain" estimated that it would cost us £7.4 billion a year....we're not really saving much on our EU membership then, are we, by doing this, and adding in a lot of administrative overhead for no real gain that I can see- apart from achieving 'sovereignty', of course.
So, whats the point?
BfB were pro-exit by the way.
It strikes me now that Leave were just hell-bent on exit at any cost, financial, social, whatever. There was little point in offering any economic argument against it as they weren't listening to this.
jambalayaMore to follow I bet you can't wait
Between this, and your rant yesterday about German tax dodging bikeshops, your lack of knowledge and understanding is quite staggering.
But hey, [b]IMMIGRANTS[/b] 🙄
Bike bits 4% - well as most come from Taiwan anyway we already pay that. So import directly and buy from uk seller or shock horror even a bike shop with real people working there
Assuming that ROW suppliers will sell at the same price to relatively small UK importers as they do to large pan-European importers and that transport costs are also equal.
[i] codybrennan - Member
It strikes me now that Leave were just hell-bent on exit at any cost, financial, social, whatever. There was little point in offering any economic argument against it as they weren't listening to this.[/i]
Well put. Yes, evidently "a few folk" were very pissed off with the EU. Who'd of thunk it!
So, whats the initial reaction of the EU after a vote for Brexit??
The EU aint going to change. Really? And people want to stay with such a bunch of self serving incumbents in Brussels, adhering to political principles laid down, in the 1950s!
The world is moving on, brexit can and may lead the way to a new Europe.
Fortunately, it would seem Brussels has been infiltrated by a handful of cleverer types who are now saying that perhaps the EU needs to change.
FTSE up 220 points
Gilts no real move from the elevated levels (should be lower on a FTSE move like that)
And GBP up a cent and a half
That points to foreign buyers picking up cheap (due to the previously smashing of GBP) stock.
Globalisation .... cause and remedy ... ??
Globalisation .... cause and remedy
Not for the dupes in the left behind parts of Britain that voted out, they'll just be shafted even more by even righter wing Tory government.
A lukewarm partial recovery based on the understanding that we won't be triggering Article 50 immediately.
I suspect Mark Carney pulling £250 billion out from behind the BoE sofa to calm the markets probably helped quite a lot too.
@cody I haven't seen any such analysis and we should include the revenues we receive. Also with a trade deficit of (I think) £130bn pa I can't imagine we'd be worse off. Germany alone enjoys a very healthy trade surplus with us on high value items like cars. I recall a poster here worked for a company importing coca from Belgium who felt at risk, well as Belgium doesn't produce coca we can buy direct from the same non-WU source
TMH so many other countries seem to do just fine outside the EU and its "free trade" I have every confidence we'll do likewise.
Britain's exit from the single market significantly weakens if, we are a rich country with a trade deficit buying high value items from abroad. We are a significant attraction for others. A few 100m people substantially poorer than us not so attractive. As I said they should pay us and handsomely too.
TMH so many other countries seem to do just fine outside the EU and its "free trade" I have every confidence we'll do likewise.
[b]I prefer to do well [/b]rather than just fine - bloody great step back
We have subjected ourselves to a more challenging outlook - unnecessary, foolhardy and based on shameful lies combined with xenophobia. No wonder there is so much backtracking going on.
One or our low points politically and economically.
Odds for A50 being invoked in 2018 or later (or never) have shortened from 7/2 to 3/1 over the past day. To be fair, the next 3 months are still favourite at 5/2. And of course the bookies aren't always right. But that still suggests a whole lot of people already share my view that it won't happen.
But that still suggests a whole lot of people already share my view that it won't happen.
What was your prediction for the referendum outcome?
What was your prediction for the referendum outcome?
Probably the same as bojo and the boys, have they come out of hiding yet?
Jambalaya I recall a poster here worked for a company importing coca from Belgium who felt at risk, well as Belgium doesn't produce coca we can buy direct from the same non-WU source
That's be me then, we use [url= https://www.barry-callebaut.com ]Barry Callebaut chocolate[/url] , always have done for the quality/ease of use and time will tell how it affects the business, whilst the [url= http://www.tradingeconomics.com/commodity/cocoa ]cocoa price is volatile at the best of times[/url] it is one of the most heavily traded commodities at the mercy of the market.
MSP I have only ever reported one person and that was when I recently lost patience at being called a racist. I am not big on political correctness and the factvisnthe EU is now a club of members most pf which are substabtially poorer than us and all lf the recent joiners and future members substantially so. We PAY for access to that market 😯 If you don't like what I post just scroll-on-by
Here is a quote from the Business for Britain site
Approximately 70% of the UK’s exports, of both goods and services, take place under the free market trade rules of the World Trade Organisation (WTO), with average tariff rates at 3%. The remaining 30% take place under the rules of our only trade deal. Known as the Single Market, it covers the trade of goods, but not services, within the EU.
We need to work hard to reduce our trade with the EU on a relative basis further from the 30% figure as fhe EU is bust, its madness to rely on it
TMH US, Australia, Canada, etc etc all doing terribly. We are doing better than the EU and we are propping them up ?
Thanks soma - now I don't know what the tarif would be but you could import directly form supplier or pay the extra for the convenience, thats a business choice, i understand the power of the staus-quo, don't rock the boat etc but its my view none of that was worth the cost of being in the EU
Also is cocoa not one of the commodities which the EU ensures it protects the interests of (rich) EU refiners/manufacturers at the expense of (very poor) growers in Africa etc ? If is me I'd rather help out Africans than Belgians in this scenario
5th, I thought remain would win - but only narrowly. I make no claims of infallibility, but I'm right a lot more than most people 🙂
I doubt we the only small business doing enough to get by at the moment and support 40odd very rural jobs in a shrinking job market area of scotland, it only takes a small degree of volatility in the market to make increased duties very worrisome. I'm sure other smb's are in the same boat so to speak.
5th, I thought remain would win - but only narrowly. I make no claims of infallibility, but I'm right a lot more than most people
😆 no shortage of people who think like that posting here!
Go for it MSP, never even had a warning. Dig up all the old posts, knock yourself out
Approximately 70% of the UK’s exports, of both goods and services, take place under the free market trade rules of the World Trade Organisation (WTO), with average tariff rates at 3%. The remaining 30% take place under the rules of our only trade deal. Known as the Single Market, it covers the trade of goods, [b]but not services,[/b] within the EU.
So what's the score with services? Are there rules/tariffs?
Anyone?
How sweet - Jamba hurls around accusations of anti-Semitism left right and centre but gets all delicate when on the receiving end.
Hes definitely part of the problem Dr J
The moderators have been very poor in dealing with your racism, I regret not reporting you now.
I got a post deleted and a warning from a moderator for saying "a bigot's logic is something to behold" with reference to jambalaya.
So I suspect you might be wasting your time.
TMH US, Australia, Canada, etc etc all doing terribly. We are doing better than the EU and we are propping them up ?
No they are not. But note that they seek to integrate with other nations not isolate themselves.
Our relative performance versus the EU is patchy to say the least
As for propping up that is more VL BS - it doesn't take much understanding to realise that the cost of membership - even with VL lies - is not the same as the economic cost or benefit. Only politicians who are trying to deliberately trying to mislead would try to conflate the ideas
But it would be another F is KS1 Economics to add to the long list of BS from VL. Truly shameful
#outofcontrol
I think the bullying of Jamba needs to stop.. it is spreading and it all looks a bit 'lord of the flies'
Read the forum rules and if you don't like'em go play elsewhere
Well said theocb. Rein it in a bit you lot.
"And I can teach thee, coz, to shame the devil
By telling truth: tell truth and shame the devil.
If thou have power to raise him, bring him hither,
And I'll be sworn I have power to shame him hence.
O, while you live, tell truth and shame the devil!"
I think the bullying of Jamba needs to stop.. it is spreading and it all looks a bit 'lord of the flies'
+1
Play the ball not the man.
It's pretty obvious he is as divisive on here as Farage is in the real world and like Farage he revels in it and plays up to it.
You are free to admire, defend or mock this as you see fit
He is also very fast and lose with the facts to the extent that his statements almost always include things that are just clearly not true- I dont mean opinions but he twice claimed yesterday that Holland and France voted against the Lisbon treaty which is just not true
He even claimed France voted against Maastricht when they voted in favour of it. There are multiple examples of these basic factual errors daily from him
if you keep doing this on STW you will keep getting "bullied"
I have not been online today so go knows what happened today so its a general comment not a specific one.
Oh and he said that anyone who criticizes Israel is a racist who dislikes Jews which is both insulting and complete bollocks.
If a serious internet discussion on any topic is to have any value there must be some sort of gentlemans' agreement that people will as far as possible stick to the facts, and be ready to support their views with some sort of references to verifiable sources. If that agreement is not respected it spoils the forum for everybody. So it's all well and good to talk about playing the ball, but if one of the "men" has not respected the rules of the game it makes no difference to the outcome - the value of the discussion is lost.
he revels in it
If so that would be all the more reason to stop doing it.
If a serious internet discussion on any topic is to have any value there must be some sort of gentlemans' agreement that people will as far as possible stick to the facts
Indeed, and all logical fallacies including Ad Homs are not sticking to the facts which is why people need to stop using them.
If the entire forum wants to start ignoring his every post and we all collectively turn our back on him then I am happy to join in
Till then, like Farage, I will challenge his views
Time to calm it surely
Enough is enough - the ball is big enough to play IT
I think the bullying of Jamba needs to stop.. it is spreading and it all looks a bit 'lord of the flies'
I think there's a valid point there. And I did say in my response to the mod's warning "Jambalaya's one redeeming quality is that he takes robust criticism extremely imo - he takes on the chin without whingeing".
Actually he has another one imo, he's also got a sense of humour.
However if Nigel Farage's anti-foreigner anti-Muslim tendencies can be challenged on here then I can't see why Jambalaya should get a particularly easy ride when he regurgitates them.
EDIT : "Till then, like Farage, I will challenge his views" Snap!
FTSE closes above pre-Brexit level, French, German and Spanish Mkts all still down. Now in fairness FTSE 250 is still lower but I expect this to be corrected. As I said Brexit is worse for them than us
Indeed, and all logical fallacies including Ad Homs are not sticking to the facts which is why people need to stop using them.
That's my point - mostly they do avoid personal attacks, but when one member just ignores convention then there's no point in arguing seriously and it becomes a circus.
I'd listen to his arguments if they were well constructed and backed up.
I though you also said yesterday that your predictions were for the medium and long term I did not realise that meant later this week .
We are in the eye of the storm basically
Analysts said the sharp recovery in the FTSE 100 was unexpected.
"It is safe to say that, of all the post Brexit outcomes discussed across the City over the past few months, 'buying frenzy' was not one that was viewed as very likely," said Chris Beauchamp, senior market analyst at spread betting firm IG.
"The plethora of bargains on offer, plus a welcome period of calm in the UK/EU relationship has provided the opportunity for markets to recover in impressive fashion," he added.
However Joe Rundle, head of trading at ETX Capital, warned reality was likely to bite soon.
"What we're seeing in the FTSE is hope in Britain being able to ride it out by remaining part of the single market. This looks like wishful thinking."
The FTSE 250 - which contains more UK-focused companies - closed 3.2% higher on Wednesday, but still remains more than 7% below its pre-Brexit level.
Case in point:
FTSE closes above pre-Brexit level, French, German and Spanish Mkts all still down. Now in fairness FTSE 250 is still lower but I expect this to be corrected. As I said Brexit is worse for them than us
Just yesterday he was telling us that short term figures don't prove anything. Today he says the opposite. This is why he is not taken seriously.
The mods are getting a lot of reports from all sides on this thread accusing each other of everything from trolling to out right bullying. This is the only warning I'm going to give before the ban stick comes in and brings it to an end.
The issues around the referendum are important and deserve to be debated. But if you resort to personal attacks then you are going to have your account suspended. Tale a breath, read your response through twice before you hit post.
Enough naval gazing for me...exits to do better things
well said mark
To make it clear I am only trying to challenge his arguments - I have no problem with him as a person, specifically because he is always calm and polite and I respect that.
.
Enough naval gazing for me...exits to do better things
Junkyard earlier.
[img] 
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As a casual observer please don't stop this thread, it's been excellent for some analysis of what's going on and views from a wider range of angles can be found in any other single place.
If a serious internet discussion on any topic is to have any value there must be some sort of gentlemans' agreement that people will as far as possible stick to the facts, and be ready to support their views with some sort of references to verifiable sources.
But facts are exactly what have been in short supply throughout this whole sorry exercise.
DC it has been suggested played a blinder by immediately announcing his resignation and handing the shit sandwich to his successor. There is certainly a "quote" that has been doing the rounds on facebook, and even analysed by new channels in agreement, and been posted here several times.
But actually I am beginning to think quite the opposite (and I am talking about post result here not the stupidity of holding the referendum in the first place). His statements have set out limited choices, these are not just for his successor to resolve but for the country.
He could have resigned with a very different message. He could have said that the result was close, that it was not an overwhelming victory, that the result had to taken very seriously but that his successor and the house of commons had to decide what path to take. He should not have stated that this was a definite mandate to activate clause 50, even if he believes it was he did not need to start the clock ticking now. There could have been time to plan a course of action.
IMO he has acted to spite his successor and the leave campaign, and weakened the countries position by doing so.
But actually I am beginning to think quite the opposite (and I am talking about post result here not the stupidity of holding the referendum in the first place). His statements have set out limited choices, these are not just for his successor to resolve but for the country.He could have resigned with a very different message. He could have said that the result was close, that it was not an overwhelming victory, that the result had to taken very seriously but that his successor and the house of commons had to decide what path to take. He should not have stated that this was a definite mandate to activate clause 50, even if he believes it was he did not need to start the clock ticking now. There could have been time to plan a course of action.
IMO he has acted to spite his successor and the leave campaign, and weakened the countries position by doing so.
I suspect the same myself - it does appear to be deliberately making life harder for the bloke who has to back-pedal out of this fix.
However, I do wonder if the real intention was to make it *really* look like we're leaving to spook the EU into giving us some kind of major concession in future.
Or does he just want to look like a 'good' loser and fully accept the loss?
I don't think he was just knackered and speaking of the cuff because he subsequently made similar comments, including yesterday.
I will deffo be reading any books Cameron or Corbyn write to get the inside story on the freaky events of this last week.
It just one big game for the vile people.
of course . he has been betrayed by some of his closest allies and friends .
Yep I saw that earlier, while t6hey hide, they are arguing over who gets the biggest pieces of the pie.
of course . he has been betrayed by some of his closest allies and friends
That isn't the country's fault.
And as this whole **** fest continues, Corbyn who seems to be getting the most criticism is the only one who is not serving himself.