[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

Shifted goalposts aside, some points to consider:
1) 66% of the population voted the Tories out at the last election. Unfortunately due to our antidemocratic system, they're still there.
2) Our upper house is unelected
3) Our head of state is unelected
4) The heads of most branches of government apparatus in the civil service are unelected

Again I refer you to that Corbyn video...

Again I refer you to that Corbyn video...

It would be better if you just considered the point I was making. You stated that if the UK government did something the majority didn't like, we could just vote them out. That's a statement which is demonstrably false. Fewer than 25% of the voting age citizens of the U.K. voted for the party currently with outright majority in the lower house. We have no elections to change the upper house, or the head of state.

Again I refer you to that Corbyn video.

You do know what a debate is dont you as you seem to be avoiding addressing any counter points made to you?

If Corbyn reckons they are an unaccountable bureaucracy, that's good enough for me. Explain why he is wrong to have that impression?

All I'm doing is highlighting the [b]far greater unaccountability[/b] which rests [b]much closer to home[/b]. If you're worried about democratic representation, surely fixing the problem that is both larger, and easier, should be the priority?

Or, is this the point where it becomes obvious to you that accountability of governments to their electorate isn't that important to you after all, and your problem with the EU actually lies somewhere else?

Michael Dougan's speech.

Sovereignty. An academic argument from an academic, pedantic in the extreme. Yes we as a sovereign nation made a free choice to hand power to the EU but its like a ratchet or a boaconstrictor round your neck you can give individual powers but you can never get them back, the only option is the all-or-nothing one, to withdraw completely. That's not Soveriegn control of your own affairs. He also deliberately confused the work of Parliament and our own Civil Service suggesting one was sovereign and the other was not.

Trade. He spoke much about trade and the complexity of various agreements and their importance. He said nothing about the fact that much of the trade in the world takes place outside free trade agreements and no other free trade agreement has the kind of political oversight and control of the EU (see additional comment below). If it where such a good idea and so valuable others would be working flat out to achieve the same, and they are not. The reality is quite the contrary.

He raised very briefly control for Northern Ireland and the Republic, something which is easily resolved and has already been addressed, the border will remain open. A further Scottish Referendum, Scotland spent 2 years debating their future, enough time to consider all scenarios. Even if there was another vote sometime in the distant future, not in Salmond's lifetime as the man said himself, then we can deal with that at the time.

He also said quite clearly how much deeper the EU goes than any other trade pact. Thats is exactly the point that those of us who are Leave have identified as one of the key reasons to get shod of it.

Finally I have to say a Professor with a job for life (security of tenure?) at Liverpool University specialising in International Law and Social Justice is not who I'd pick as impartial. The Law is a subject of nuance and interpretation, thats why we have courts to weigh up the balance of the arguments

and your problem with the EU actually lies somewhere else?

what are you implying ?

66% of the population voted the Tories out at the last election. Unfortunately due to our antidemocratic system, they're still there.
2) Our upper house is unelected
3) Our head of state is unelected
4) The heads of most branches of government apparatus in the civil service are unelected

1) no they did not, they voted for someone else - it was not an against vote. If we had a French stype Presidentail election where the top two candidates have a direct run off in a second round of voting then perhaps you could say that, but we don't and you cannot.
2) Its appointed and it reviews legislation proposed by the Commons - as such in EU terms the Lords does what the EU Parliament does and the Commons does what the EU commission does. The exact opposite democratically
3) Yup, a ceremonial role
4) the Civil service does what our elected representatives tell it to do, including for example only working on Remain campaign requests

what are you implying ?

Turner they are desperately clutching at straws

Sovereignty. An academic argument from an academic

His point is incontrovertible hence why you shot the messenger rather than did a correct appeal to his authority 😆

Its appointed

and it reviews legislation proposed by the Commons - as such in EU terms the Lords does what the EU Parliament does and the Commons does what the EU commission does. The exact opposite democratically

what are you implying ?

they are desperately clutching at straws

Turner they are desperately clutching at straws

I work in the financial sector, in the city, as a programmer. Got a lot of years under my belt, in an ageist industry.

If the city got shafted by brexit it will affect me, so an In vote seems obvious.

I was also leaning toward In, thinking that maybe the giant of the EU is maybe a good 'blocker' to the government, etc, but it seems to me that free movement is really only benefitting businesses who can get cheap labour and it isn't benefiting the lower skilled workers who now face a lot of competition and, if they have families, are not as mobile as the people they are competing against.

Combine this with the way Greece has been shafted and the attempt to bring in TTIP, and the EU looks increasingly undesirable.

He is saying the democratic deficit argument is weak because we are less democratic than they are so you cannot object to their lack of democracy whilst we have an even less democratic system. Therefore you dislike the EU for other reasons and this is a "red herring".

so you are saying that Corbyn has it wrong as well ?

[b]He is saying ....you dislike the EU[/b]

I was wary of the EU but had almost convinced myself that I had no grounds, but on looking a bit more I am changing my mind again.

Finally I have to say a Professor with a job for life (security of tenure?) at Liverpool University specialising in International Law and Social Justice is not who I'd pick as impartial. The Law is a subject of nuance and interpretation, thats why we have courts to weigh up the balance of the arguments

Jambas, how would you describe the one economist who does appear to be on your side (ok there may be a handful, let's not exaggerate) Patrick Minford? What his role and where? Do you put any value in his contribution?

Turner thanks for posting that film, I am very glad they got the Crowdfunding together to make it. Very much worth the hour to watch it in full. It makes all the points I have tried to make and does them in a firmly left wing and trade unionsists voice.

This Referendum is without doubt a cross party issue, its an issue for everybody.

TurnerGuy - Member
I work in the financial sector, in the city, as a programmer. Got a lot of years under my belt, in an ageist industry.

If the city got shafted by brexit it will affect me, so an In vote seems obvious.

Nahh ... it will Not affect you with that skill set of yours coz you are in demand.

At the moment EU is like a slow shipwreck that you know is heading into the abyss but you somehow procrastinate or simply enjoy the cruise because you only see clam water surrounding you ... Titanic did not see things coming but the current EU white elephant just ignores all the signs ...

The company you work for will wait to see before they make any moves. If your company is doing well now it is very unlikely they will depart from UK because competitors will jump in at the opportunity. It is business after all and if there is profit they are there.

Question is will your company let you go and let competitor snaps you up with the knowledge you have about them? Bear in mind, if your company let you go then they have no say whatsoever when your company no longer hold office here.

@tmh as I said I don't give a lot of weight to economists full stop, I haven't read much of any economic output from either side. I couldn't name a Remain or a Leave economist. I am with Her Majesty who during a visit to the LSE why they hadn't predicted the financial crises, they took 3 months to reply to say they did not know. It was "group think"

It makes all the points I have tried to make and does them in a firmly left wing and trade unionsists voice.

simply enjoy the cruise because you only see clam water surrounding you

I can live with that 🙂

[img] [/img]

Our trade with the EU (from the L-Exit film). As they say in the film and I've said on numerous occasions its a stagnant exonomically failing political project, "its where it was, not where it is" - Galloway is always good for a soundbyte

The EU want us in as we've deep pockets, we contribute a huge amount of money to the budget amd we are a very very good customer.

[img] [/img]

yunki - Member

simply enjoy the cruise because you only see clam water surrounding you

I can live with that

By the way you like eating bottom filter (clams)? Aren't they toxic? 😆

Truner the argument that the EU somehow "blocks" the Tories says two things, 1) people think Labour can never win and 2) that they completely ignire the possibility (or even the current reality as per the film) that the EU becomes (is) a right leaning organisation, at which point they are banjaxed as they can do nothing to unseat them.

I am thinking of blocking in terms of regulations getting in the way of the tories doing anything too radical.

Not convinced on the workers rights being safer with the EU either.

The company you work for will wait to see before they make any moves.

My company won't move but I was more concerned about the banks really, zee germans are always trying to move the financial centre their way.

Anyway, about the dairy graph. How much is down to the apparent appetite of the British for European cheeses and the utter lack of knowledge on the continent of our superior produce.

Oh and what impact would OUT have on that graph? Will the deficit improve or get worse?

OK would you accept that the same criticisms of both Profs?

Given that you have produced no evidence to the wild claims or been able to answer any of my simple questions, I am not sure who/what you are using to base your decisions on. But that is not unique, it seems to be true of all/most OUTers.

Since the central points of the VL/BS campaign can all be falsified with ease, this is unsurprising and were it not such a serious topic I might respect your bravado and thickness of skin. As it is, the willingness to stand up for complete nonsense and stuff that you cannot provide any evidence for beggar belief.

Even the BoE claims - in specific cases - that the impact of immigration on wages is small. From this we get wild exaggeration and bold claims built on sand.

Ditto, look at the trade graph above. Wonder why the dates are chosen for the historic period and who produces the forecasts for the future?

At what point does this become embarrassing?

TurnerGuy - Member
My company won't move but I was more concerned about the banks really, zee germans are always trying to move the financial centre their way.

Edit: I can bet you that there will be new incentives to retain/attract foreign investors ... the govt is not sitting there to rot you know.

TMH and @mefty the BoE said immigration depresses wages, Rose (ex M&S CEO) and chair or Remain said so too

lets see...

This paper asks whether immigration to Britain has had any impact on average wages. There seems to be a broad consensus among academics that the share of immigrants in the workforce has little or no effect on native wages. These studies typically have not refined their analysis by breaking it down into different occupational groups. Our contribution is to extend the existing literature on immigration to include occupations as well. We find that the immigrant to native ratio has a small negative impact on average British wages.

Hmmm, not quite the same thing is it....furthermore the small negative impact is less than the last time.

On top of that, since the last two relatively poor E European countries have been admitted and had access to the UK labour market, average earnings have risen. Which suggests either (1) a positive effect or (2) and more likely, there are other far more important factors at work.

Nevertheless, far easier to blame those nasty foreigners. Bastards.....

Not convinced on the workers rights being safer with the EU either.

The polls look to be swinging toward leave, its quite a scary prospect, Im not talking about the damage our economy might see as we leave the EU
rather that the bigots, xenophobes and racists see this outcome as a victory

"Death to traitors, freedom for Britain",

are people on here still trying to deny that Tommy Mair was a Britain First supporter?

[img] [/img]

The polls look to be swinging toward leave, its quite a scary prospect, Im not talking about the damage our economy might see as we leave the EU
rather that the bigots, xenophobes and racists see this outcome as a victory

Something mentioned to me earlier, which i hadn't considered but after events this week, what is the likelihood of some taking a brexit result as a green light to thuggery to "Evict" foreigners?

I hope it doesn't come to it, but there are people who would!

Welcome to tolerant inclusive England in 2016!

this was too good not to share...
Sorry for the cut n paste but this thread is already jammed packed full twittery and stubbbornisms..

This is a pleasant relief from all the absurdity 🙂

"Brexit: AA Gill argues for ‘In’

We all know what “getting our country back” means. It’s snorting a line of that most pernicious and debilitating Little English drug, nostalgia

It was the woman on Question Time that really did it for me. She was so familiar. There is someone like her in every queue, every coffee shop, outside every school in every parish council in the country. Middle-aged, middle-class, middle-brow, over-made-up, with her National Health face and weatherproof English expression of hurt righteousness, she’s Britannia’s mother-in-law. The camera closed in on her and she shouted: “All I want is my country back. Give me my country back.”

It was a heartfelt cry of real distress and the rest of the audience erupted in sympathetic applause, but I thought: “Back from what? Back from where?”

Wanting the country back is the constant mantra of all the outies. Farage slurs it, Gove insinuates it. Of course I know what they mean. We all know what they mean. They mean back from Johnny Foreigner, back from the brink, back from the future, back-to-back, back to bosky hedges and dry stone walls and country lanes and church bells and warm beer and skittles and football rattles and cheery banter and clogs on cobbles. Back to vicars-and-tarts parties and Carry On fart jokes, back to Elgar and fudge and proper weather and herbaceous borders and cars called Morris. Back to victoria sponge and 22 yards to a wicket and 15 hands to a horse and 3ft to a yard and four fingers in a Kit Kat, back to gooseberries not avocados, back to deference and respect, to make do and mend and smiling bravely and biting your lip and suffering in silence and patronising foreigners with pity.

We all know what “getting our country back” means. It’s snorting a line of the most pernicious and debilitating Little English drug, nostalgia. The warm, crumbly, honey-coloured, collective “yesterday” with its fond belief that everything was better back then, that Britain (England, really) is a worse place now than it was at some foggy point in the past where we achieved peak Blighty. It’s the knowledge that the best of us have been and gone, that nothing we can build will be as lovely as a National Trust Georgian country house, no art will be as good as a Turner, no poem as wonderful as If, no writer a touch on Shakespeare or Dickens, nothing will grow as lovely as a cottage garden, no hero greater than Nelson, no politician better than Churchill, no view more throat-catching than the White Cliffs and that we will never manufacture anything as great as a Rolls-Royce or Flying Scotsman again.

The dream of Brexit isn’t that we might be able to make a brighter, new, energetic tomorrow, it’s a desire to shuffle back to a regret-curdled inward-looking yesterday. In the Brexit fantasy, the best we can hope for is to kick out all the work-all-hours foreigners and become caretakers to our own past in this self-congratulatory island of moaning and pomposity.

And if you think that’s an exaggeration of the Brexit position, then just listen to the language they use: “We are a nation of inventors and entrepreneurs, we want to put the great back in Britain, the great engineers, the great manufacturers.” This is all the expression of a sentimental nostalgia. In the Brexiteer’s mind’s eye is the old Pathé newsreel of Donald Campbell, of John Logie Baird with his television, Barnes Wallis and his bouncing bomb, and Robert Baden-Powell inventing boy scouts in his shed.

All we need, their argument goes, is to be free of the humourless Germans and spoilsport French and all their collective liberalism and reality. There is a concomitant hope that if we manage to back out of Europe, then we’ll get back to the bowler-hatted 1950s and the Commonwealth will hold pageants, fireworks displays and beg to be back in the Queen Empress’s good books again. Then New Zealand will sacrifice a thousand lambs, Ghana will ask if it can go back to being called the Gold Coast and Britain will resume hand-making Land Rovers and top hats and Sheffield plate teapots.

There is a reason that most of the people who want to leave the EU are old while those who want to remain are young: it’s because the young aren’t infected with Bisto nostalgia. They don’t recognise half the stuff I’ve mentioned here. They’ve grown up in the EU and at worst it’s been neutral for them.

The under-thirties want to be part of things, not aloof from them. They’re about being joined-up and counted. I imagine a phrase most outies identify with is “women’s liberation has gone too far”. Everything has gone too far for them, from political correctness — well, that’s gone mad, hasn’t it? — to health and safety and gender-neutral lavatories. Those oldies, they don’t know if they’re coming or going, what with those newfangled mobile phones and kids on Tinder and Grindr. What happened to meeting Miss Joan Hunter Dunn at the tennis club? And don’t get them started on electric hand dryers, or something unrecognised in the bagging area, or Indian call centres , or the impertinent computer asking for a password that has both capitals and little letters and numbers and more than eight digits.

Brexit is the fond belief that Britain is worse now than at some point in the foggy past where we achieved peak Blighty

We listen to the Brexit lot talk about the trade deals they’re going to make with Europe after we leave, and the blithe insouciance that what they’re offering instead of EU membership is a divorce where you can still have sex with your ex. They reckon they can get out of the marriage, keep the house, not pay alimony, take the kids out of school, stop the in-laws going to the doctor, get strict with the visiting rights, but, you know, still get a shag at the weekend and, obviously, see other people on the side.

Really, that’s their best offer? That’s the plan? To swagger into Brussels with Union Jack pants on and say: “ ’Ello luv, you’re looking nice today. Would you like some?”

When the rest of us ask how that’s really going to work, leavers reply, with Terry-Thomas smirks, that “they’re going to still really fancy us, honest, they’re gagging for us. Possibly not Merkel, but the bosses of Mercedes and those French vintners and cheesemakers, they can’t get enough of old John Bull. Of course they’re going to want to go on making the free market with two backs after we’ve got the decree nisi. Makes sense, doesn’t it?”

Have no doubt, this is a divorce. It’s not just business, it’s not going to be all reason and goodwill. Like all divorces, leaving Europe would be ugly and mean and hurtful, and it would lead to a great deal of poisonous xenophobia and racism, all the niggling personal prejudice that dumped, betrayed and thwarted people are prey to. And the racism and prejudice are, of course, weak points for us. The tortuous renegotiation with lawyers and courts will be bitter and vengeful, because divorces always are and, just in passing, this sovereignty thing we’re supposed to want back so badly, like Frodo’s ring, has nothing to do with you or me. We won’t notice it coming back, because we didn’t notice not having it in the first place.

Nine out of 10 economists say ‘remain in the EU’

You won’t wake up on June 24 and think: “Oh my word, my arthritis has gone! My teeth are suddenly whiter! Magically, I seem to know how to make a soufflé and I’m buff with the power of sovereignty.” This is something only politicians care about; it makes not a jot of difference to you or me if the Supreme Court is a bunch of strangely out-of-touch old gits in wigs in Westminster or a load of strangely out-of-touch old gits without wigs in Luxembourg. What matters is that we have as many judges as possible on the side of personal freedom.

Personally, I see nothing about our legislators in the UK that makes me feel I can confidently give them more power. The more checks and balances politicians have, the better for the rest of us. You can’t have too many wise heads and different opinions. If you’re really worried about red tape, by the way, it’s not just a European problem. We’re perfectly capable of coming up with our own rules and regulations and we have no shortage of jobsworths. Red tape may be annoying, but it is also there to protect your and my family from being lied to, poisoned and cheated.

The first “X” I ever put on a voting slip was to say yes to the EU. The first referendum was when I was 20 years old. This one will be in the week of my 62nd birthday. For nearly all my adult life, there hasn’t been a day when I haven’t been pleased and proud to be part of this great collective. If you ask me for my nationality, the truth is I feel more European than anything else. I am part of this culture, this European civilisation. I can walk into any gallery on our continent and completely understand the images and the stories on the walls. These people are my people and they have been for thousands of years. I can read books on subjects from Ancient Greece to Dark Ages Scandinavia, from Renaissance Italy to 19th-century France, and I don’t need the context or the landscape explained to me. The music of Europe, from its scales and its instruments to its rhythms and religion, is my music. The Renaissance, the rococo, the Romantics, the impressionists, gothic, baroque, neoclassicism, realism, expressionism, futurism, fauvism, cubism, dada, surrealism, postmodernism and kitsch were all European movements and none of them belongs to a single nation.

There is a reason why the Chinese are making fake Italian handbags and the Italians aren’t making fake Chinese ones. This European culture, without question or argument, is the greatest, most inventive, subtle, profound, beautiful and powerful genius that was ever contrived anywhere by anyone and it belongs to us. Just look at my day job — food. The change in food culture and pleasure has been enormous since we joined the EU, and that’s no coincidence. What we eat, the ingredients, the recipes, may come from around the world, but it is the collective to and fro of European interests, expertise and imagination that has made it all so very appetising and exciting.

The restaurant was a European invention, naturally. The first one in Paris was called The London Bridge.

Culture works and grows through the constant warp and weft of creators, producers, consumers, intellectuals and instinctive lovers. You can’t dictate or legislate for it, you can just make a place that encourages it and you can truncate it. You can make it harder and more grudging, you can put up barriers and you can build walls, but why on earth would you? This collective culture, this golden civilisation grown on this continent over thousands of years, has made everything we have and everything we are, why would you not want to be part of it?

I understand that if we leave we don’t have to hand back our library ticket for European civilisation, but why would we even think about it? In fact, the only ones who would are those old, philistine scared gits. Look at them, too frightened to join in."

[quote=teamhurtmore ]
At what point does this become embarrassing?

Friday morning 🙂

Feel free not to read the quote below from Hesiod written about 3,000 years ago.

somethingion, life is s*** it was better in the past.

Anyone who thinks the past was a wonderful place is delusional, people remember what they want to remember, if you think leaving the EU will suddenly right every wrong, sorry, ask yourself what kind of country the UK was in the '70s, ask yourself what has changed in the UK between then and now, and ask yourself do you really think the politicians in charge of the UK now have a clue!

[109] First of all the deathless gods who dwell on Olympus made a golden race of mortal men who lived in the time of Cronos when he was reigning in heaven. And they lived like gods without sorrow of heart, remote and free from toil and grief: miserable age rested not on them; but with legs and arms never failing they made merry with feasting beyond the reach of all evils. When they died, it was as though they were overcome with sleep, and they had all good things; for the fruitful earth unforced bare them fruit abundantly and without stint. They dwelt in ease and peace upon their lands with many good things, rich in flocks and loved by the blessed gods.
[121] But after earth had covered this generation -- they are called pure spirits dwelling on the earth, and are kindly, delivering from harm, and guardians of mortal men; for they roam everywhere over the earth, clothed in mist and keep watch on judgements and cruel deeds, givers of wealth; for this royal right also they received; -- then they who dwell on Olympus made a second generation which was of silver and less noble by far. It was like the golden race neither in body nor in spirit. A child was brought up at his good mother's side an hundred years, an utter simpleton, playing childishly in his own home. But when they were full grown and were come to the full measure of their prime, they lived only a little time in sorrow because of their foolishness, for they could not keep from sinning and from wronging one another, nor would they serve the immortals, nor sacrifice on the holy altars of the blessed ones as it is right for men to do wherever they dwell. Then Zeus the son of Cronos was angry and put them away, because they would not give honour to the blessed gods who live on Olympus.
[140] But when earth had covered this generation also -- they are called blessed spirits of the underworld by men, and, though they are of second order, yet honour attends them also -- Zeus the Father made a third generation of mortal men, a brazen race, sprung from ash-trees [meliai]; and it was in no way equal to the silver age, but was terrible and strong. They loved the lamentable works of Ares and deeds of violence; they ate no bread, but were hard of heart like adamant, fearful men. Great was their strength and unconquerable the arms which grew from their shoulders on their strong limbs. Their armour was of bronze, and their houses of bronze, and of bronze were their implements: there was no black iron. These were destroyed by their own hands and passed to the dank house of chill Hades, and left no name: terrible though they were, black Death seized them, and they left the bright light of the sun.
[156] But when earth had covered this generation also, Zeus the son of Cronos made yet another, the fourth, upon the fruitful earth, which was nobler and more righteous, a god-like race of hero-
men who are called demi-gods, the race before our own, throughout the boundless earth. Grim war and dread battle destroyed a part of them, some in the land of Cadmus at seven- gated Thebe when they fought for the flocks of Oedipus, and some, when it had brought them in ships over the great sea gulf to Troy for rich-haired Helen's sake: there death's end enshrouded a part of them. But to the others father Zeus the son of Cronos gave a living and an abode apart from men, and made them dwell at the ends of earth. And they live untouched by sorrow in the islands of the blessed along the shore of deep swirling Ocean, happy heroes for whom the grain-giving earth bears honey-sweet fruit flourishing thrice a year, far from the deathless gods, and Cronos rules over them; for the father of men and gods released him from his bonds. And these last equally have honour and glory.
[169c] And again far-seeing Zeus made yet another generation, the fifth, of men who are upon the bounteous earth.
[170] Thereafter, would that I were not among the men of the fifth generation, but either had died before or been born afterwards. For now truly is a race of iron, and men never rest from labour and sorrow by day, and from perishing by night; and the gods shall lay sore trouble upon them. But, notwithstanding, even these shall have some good mingled with their evils. And Zeus will destroy this race of mortal men also when they come to have grey hair on the temples at their birth. The father will not agree with his children, nor the children with their father, nor guest with his host, nor comrade with comrade; nor will brother be dear to brother as aforetime. Men will dishonour their parents as they grow quickly old, and will carp at them, chiding them with bitter words, hard-hearted they, not knowing the fear of the gods. They will not repay their aged parents the cost their nurture, for might shall be their right: and one man will sack another's city. There will be no favour for the man who keeps his oath or for the just or for the good; but rather men will praise the evil-doer and his violent dealing. Strength will be right and reverence will cease to be; and the wicked will hurt the worthy man, speaking false words against him, and will swear an oath upon them. Envy, foul-mouthed, delighting in evil, with scowling face, will go along with wretched men one and all. And then Aidos and Nemesis [shame of wrongdoing and indignation against the wrongdoer], with their sweet forms wrapped in white robes, will go from the wide-pathed earth and forsake mankind to join the company of the deathless gods: and bitter sorrows will be left for mortal men, and there will be no help against evil.

yunki plus 1

Yunki, that summed up my thoughts a treat.
Let's hope the message gets through. Sadly I fear not.

Thanks for that Yunki - nice summing up from AA Gill - I hadn't seen that.

Good article there Yunki.

zippykona - Member
Yunki, that summed up my thoughts a treat.
Let's hope the message gets through. Sadly I fear not.

Nope. I am Not buying it not matter how cheap your EU system is ... 😆

You see you have this EU thingy for sometimes now so let's try something else coz it's the turn of someone (another system) else after all [b]EU system is not the only system we can invent ...
[/b]
You lot are so uncreative you think that it will be the end of the world if there is no EU ... 😆

So funny. 😆

ask yourself what kind of country the UK was in the '70s, ask yourself what has changed in the UK between then and now

It was like this...

and this...

When did Jimmy Pursey morph into Nigel Farage?

@yunki AA Gill put a X for the EEC [b]not[/b] the EU so he's "mis-remembered" that. What he and everyone esle got is eaxctky the sort of political organisation they where promised they would not be getting.

His last two sentences are frankly pretty patronising and insulting, I suggest he put those to the Scottish fisherman in the Lexit film and see how they are received.

what do you think Tories mean when they say cutting red tape?

86% of our economic activity does not relate to the EU so uneccessary regulation would seem to offer plenty of opportunity.

Why don't you take some time and watch Lexit and give us your critique as to why all those trade unionists are wrong

suburbanreuben - Member

ask yourself what kind of country the UK was in the '70s, ask yourself what has changed in the UK between then and now

It was like this...

When did Jimmy Percy morph into Nigel Farage?

Change? What change are you referring to?

You are still the same! Same! No change! Yes!

I mean try not to kid yourself even in 2016.

You are still stuck in the class system and are still struggling to accept that there are people who are better off than other.

The "changes" that you have seen are merely the sign of time i.e. natural occurrence in the world.

😆 -> "Change"

You lot are so uncreative you think that it will be the end of the world if there is no EU ...

Just had that Leave leaflet through the letterbox. A bit of manipulation of the size of Britain on that map - just to show what a powerful nation we are!