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Drinking With Racists

222 posts & 65 voices | Started 11 months ago by GrahamS | Latest reply from Frankenstein

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Junkyard - Member

Exactly. Which it's why I find it interesting to discuss. I'm not looking for answers due to a lack of understanding, I'm throwing out a few Devil's Advocate questions to see what people do with them

you can only discuss if you give your view genuinely held [rather than questions] otherwise you are just trolling/anatgonising/provoking etc. The use of the devils advocate defence just further exacerbates this problem.
TBH there is enough folk on here with contrasting views that this is rarely needed.
It is rare that consensus is achieved

Posted 11 months ago #
MrSalmon - Member

Maybe not, but the reality is that it is an insidious process which starts with small issues and eventually ends up in things like ethnic cleansing.

That's one of the funniest things I've read on here! We're talking about a 50-odd year old working class Geordie, not Adolph bloody Hitler!!

Shibboleth sort of has a point here though- not that small things like this lead to things like ethnic cleansing, but that small things have an insidious effect that can persist in a sort of 'everybody knows' way if left unchallenged. If they become widespread enough people just accept them rather than thinking about them, in the same way that 'everybody knows' that lemmings jump of cliffs and drivers pay road tax. So a sort of communal subconcious belief that all Muslims are terrorists, all Jews are moneygrabbers, etc etc can persist. Then given the right circumstances like in the Balkans, Rwanda etc. these things can be exploited.

Clearly it's a long way from some BS in a pub to ethnic cleanising but still, I don't think it's a stretch to believe that casual, unthinking views like that can have some power.

Posted 11 months ago #
TuckerUK - Member

Thing about racism, some people don't fully realise what they are doing.

I was approached by an acquaintance at work once asking whether I fancied joining the BNP. I replied 'You're joking right?'. He wasn't. Had that 'doh' look when I reminded him that my partner of the time (who he actually knew and liked) was from the Dominican Republic!

Posted 11 months ago #
konabunny - Member

as I said, we're talking about the North East of England, and I doubt our 50-odd your old beer fan is planning a military coup any time soon!

Someone earlier hit the nail on the head - this is a remnant attitude of a previous generation and it's best ignored

1) well, quite, I doubt he is plotting a military coup (there was no military coup in Yugoslavia, btw). That's why he's of second tier ilk. Yer man isn't going to leave the pub to organise the lynch mob but he's probably likely to bring a pitchfork if he heard one was going on. Hitler's Willing Executioners, the Banality of Evil, blah di blah. The leaders of fascist and extremist movements are frequently not very ideological. That's what's surprising about Hitler in a way - that he actually believed in all that shit!

2) A previous generation? A 50 year old would have been 8 years old when the Rivers of Blood speech was made (its contentiousness shows that racism was an active political issue) and hitting 20 years old by 1980 - he can hardly have noticed that casual (or genuine) racism was a hot topic!

Posted 11 months ago #
Cougar - Member

you can only discuss if you give your view genuinely held

That's demonstrably not true.

otherwise you are just trolling/anatgonising/provoking etc.

"Provoking" I'll grant you. I don't think that encouraging healthy debate, or making people stop and think, are bad things though.

Trolling, no. I'm not looking to make people angry, misrepresenting myself, laughing at others' expense, winding people up, any of that. If I thought for a second that that was actually happening, I'd be mortified.

If you're going to get angry at something you've actually misunderstood then I'm sorry. I do try very hard to be as clear as possible but the nature of communicating solely in a written medium means that it's easy to be taken the wrong way.

That said, there are better things to get angry about than the undisclosed opinions of someone you don't know on the Internet. For instance, the last thing that made me really angry was Brain Gym, which is a far more deserving target for sheer blinding rage.

Posted 11 months ago #
bagpuss72 - Member

Racism isn't born, folks, it's taught. I have a two-year-old son. You know what he hates? Naps! End of list. ~Dennis Leary

I have been horrified & deleted 'friends' from facebook for telling racist jokes, I've also stood up to people for myself and for other people (yes sometimes strangers) for being homophobic, sexist and disablist (yes it is a word that should exist if it doesn't)I feel confident enough to do that some people don't I'd like to think I can make someone think a little about their actions, perhaps thats butting in but there's been times I wished someone would stand up for me when I didn't have the strength to find my voice.

If everyone was a little braver and spent less time sniping at strangers *sic* and sticking up for their fellow human beings no matter what colour, sex, age they where then the world might be a better place to live in.....

Posted 11 months ago #
deadlydarcy - Member

Stupid **** Micks...coming here with their sing-song sexy accents shagging our women.

Posted 11 months ago #
Junkyard - Member

If you're going to get angry at something you've actually misunderstood then I'm sorry

Angry ? No where near tbh. Do you often find yourself failing to read people whilst telling them they have misunderstood you?
Oh the ironing
yeah you are true abut discussion ;I should have added the word meaningful.

Posted 11 months ago #
Cougar - Member

Do you often find yourself failing to read people whilst telling them they have misunderstood you?

Read the first word in that sentence you've quoted again, would you? Ta.

Posted 11 months ago #
project - Member

Life is not all black and white, its both, its so wrong to hate people because of their colour, but oh so right because theyre being a prat, and a lot of Racist /homophobic people are just prats, living in a bygone age, so do you decline treatment from a non white health care profesional, or perhaps a nurse you may feel is gay.

Probaly the answer is NO.

Posted 11 months ago #
yunki - Member

rascists just need a flippin good cuddle.. make them feel loved.. poor sacks of hatred that they are..

Posted 11 months ago #
anagallis_arvensis - Member

I've drunk with a few Moari's who claim to "**** hate Moari's" and referred to a number of others as "**** black bastards" this despite them appearing to be blacker than the ones they were talking about. I drank my beer and kept quiet.

Posted 11 months ago #
LycraLout - Member

Musical racism rules

Posted 11 months ago #
highclimber - Member

I doubt he is a out and out BNP-loving Neo-Nazi but he certainly needs telling his words have no place in todays society but it needs to be done in such a way that doesn't make you sound like a gay....

Posted 11 months ago #
Junkyard - Member

Look if you want to warble on acting like a male hen and talking out your rear whilst coming over as a moron then so be it

obviously I said if so clearly no offence will be taken and I have an easy defence move really convincing eh

Have you thought about joining threads where CharlieMungus , molgrips and Don simon are involved? You could spend days not really saying anything to each other nor actually expressing an opinion. I prefer chatting with people who mean what they say.

Posted 11 months ago #
molgrips - Member

You what? I don't mean what I say? Wtf are you on about?

Posted 11 months ago #
Junkyard - Member

I genuinely cant tell if that was irony molgrips but I hope it was.
I dont mean it that broadly to be fair so sorry it was clumsy use of language. I mean like what you did on the childcare thread that kind of thing where you ...ah you describe it how you like.

Posted 11 months ago #
Cougar - Member

Ah, ad hominem. Well done.

Posted 11 months ago #
Junkyard - Member

Sensitive are we ?
I dont see an attack on you tbh I was just giving you some advice as to who to "debate" with.
Feel free to ignore it.
See easy this but ultimately pointless.

Posted 11 months ago #
Cougar - Member

Sensitive, not at all. I just think it's a bit pathetic really. You've tried repeatedly to leg me up, failed, and so resorted to insults (including randomly insulting people wholly unrelated to this discussion).

But whatever. Fire away. I'm not going to respond further to direct attacks, so knock yourself out. If you'd like to go back to discussing the topic like adults, I'm all ears.

Posted 11 months ago #
Lifer - Member

Posted 11 months ago #
deadlydarcy - Member

Cougar, do you think you haven't come over as a moron in the latter part of this thread? Say what you think now.

Posted 11 months ago #
Junkyard - Member

I'm just throwing out a few Devil's Advocate questions to see what people do with them .......

Posted 11 months ago #
crimsondynamo - Member

To the OP:

I think you've got it all ass backwards, it's the bad-chat merchant that should be feeling sheepish, not you!

Just pipe up with a bit of Louis Theroux type light-hearted logical demolition of his world view (easily done). Just approach it as you would do any other bollox that gets spouted in a boozer, whether it be about football or anything else. No reason to get all heated about it.

The issue here is not the subject matter, but the fact that you feel bad that you didn't engage in the discussion.

Posted 11 months ago #
deadlydarcy - Member

Junkyard, you're a moron.

Posted 11 months ago #
Junkyard - Member

I thought you were on my side ...turncoat... but you may have a point...ooh are you trolling ?

Posted 11 months ago #
slimjim78 - Member

As a white englishman living in/around very culturally diverse areas, I have been on the receiving end of more racist abuse than most have given out.
Ive noticed that in areas where I personally become a minority I tend to witness a more confident 'mob rule' attitude from other races (obviously).
I also have had discussions with asian friends/collegues on this and similar topics and this has been affirmed.

It is my belief that any & every culture has the tendancy to be racist/oppresive toward the minority in its immediate surroundings.
Racism truly isnt a 'white man' thing, and it will never be eradicated as culturally we are too diverse.
However, overtly liberal attitudes (which I find terribly lame) will only end up creating bigger problems in the long run as we shift the balance far too much.
We have to stop apologising, accept our differences and the very fact that we are different before we can move on.

Posted 11 months ago #
deadlydarcy - Member

No racism isn't truly a white man thing, but no race has dealt it out more severely with terrible consequences than the white man.

Posted 11 months ago #
Grimy - Member

No racism isn't truly a white man thing, but no race has dealt it out more severely with terrible consequences than the white man.

Racist!

Posted 11 months ago #
deadlydarcy - Member

Racist!

Idiot!

Posted 11 months ago #
Cougar - Member

Cougar, do you think you haven't come over as a moron in the latter part of this thread? Say what you think now.

Do you think I have? Genuine question, there's little point in me taking part in these chats in future if that's what everyone thinks.

Posted 11 months ago #
TandemJeremy - Member

You don't come over as a moron to me - but it does look like you miss the point about racism and the use of racist language completely with no desire to understand the issues at all.

If you argue devils advocate when someone makes a good point you should accept that

Posted 11 months ago #
slimjim78 - Member

''No racism isn't truly a white man thing, but no race has dealt it out more severely with terrible consequences than the white man''

Says who? Thats a sweeping generalisation at best.
Are you speaking on behalf of international rascists throughout history?
Or the fact that most of the history you are aware of is based on white man? (as you are presumably white, and educated as such).
Many other countries have far far worse racsism problems (& history) than the UK - and many of those countries are not 'white'.

Posted 11 months ago #
xiphon - Member

You will always meet people who 99% you get on with (perhaps share their views, or don't mind some). Then there's the 1% of them you don't get on with.

Local bloke in the snack van (Blackburn area) is like that - he's one of the nicest people I think I have ever met.... but don't get him started on "those bloody Asians". Not to stereotype or anything, but his usual customers who complain about "those bloody Asians" are overweight middle aged skinhead truck drivers/builders/labourers (you get the picture...)

I just don't get involved in the discussion....

Posted 11 months ago #
deadlydarcy - Member

Says who? Thats a sweeping generalisation at best.

Ah right, says me for today. So, historically, who has dealt out more shite to other races than white people (by which I mean "white Europeans, including Americans..."? I hope you get the picture. If you need me to be more explicit, we can do that.

Posted 11 months ago #