I've having rather filthy thoughts about buying a big bike after a week of being totally undergunned on my Five in Morzine last week.
I'd want it for occasional Aston Hill / Woburn / Cwm Carn days (and maybe Alpine trips), so nothing overly daft. My current thinking is a shorter travel 'fun' DH bike, rather than a 9" monster.
Give me your thoughts...
Coil shock and bigger forks on the five.
I sold my DH bike after getting my five.
If you buy a DH bike, sure you will love it in the Alps - for your one or two week holiday.
Then back in the UK you will stuck riding only at Aston / Cwn Carn, a pale immatation of the Alps.
I built up a bike that would do it all - Transition Covert, uppy downy, big forks, big brakes, big bars etc etc. Rides XC fine, rode the Alps fine. In fact I didnt need more in the Alps, more would have been beyond my skill level. Back home Im still competitive at the Bristol Bike Fest, fine doing SITS and fine riding it everywhere.
So just sort out your bike with better suspension and brakes. Unless you really want to give up XC and just race DH in the UK all the time. One of my mates does that, the rest who dabbled at DH ended up selling them because the couldnt justify a bike that got used so little.
undergunned on a 5? surely not 
What do you mean by shorter travel "fun" DH bike tho?
low/slack like a DH race bike but lighter and shorter travel? if so, how much travel? and if you do want a light bike it's either going to cost you a fortune and/or break quicker.
unfortunately there are still pretty much no short travel bikes that actually have proper DH geomtry off the shelf, angled headset cups or switching shock length/mounts may be an option to get some bikes closer though.
Actually the thing that limited my riding in the Alps was not my bike, it was experience and the sight of all those chaps in Morzine / Les Gets with their arms in a sling.
If I lived in the Alps, sure Id have a DH rig. But you live here, where even our DH tracks are fine on agressive trail bikes.
Trimix- who did you feel you needed to justify having a DH bike to? 
once you've got one, even if you only ride it once or twice a year but do actually ride dH on it it's justified having it isn't it?
Coil shock and bigger forks on the five.
Currently running 160mm Lyriks up front, but a coil rear would be good.
It was more wheelbase/steeper head angle issues that were causing problems.
What do you mean by shorter travel "fun" DH bike tho?
Something like a Transition 250 springs to mind (no pun intended). Single crown, quite low and reasonably slack.
Funnily enough, the reason I currently own an Intense Uzzi is because its previous owner thought along exactly the same lines as you, and used it once in the following year before selling it to me. For me it's versatile enough to be used for big days out in the Peaks/Lakes/Wales as well as the gravity inspired stuff.
Real world, your 5 will be fine with some bigger wheels, tyres and a coil shock for most things - have you seen how hard Rowan Sorrell and Danny Macaskill ride theirs?
If you still want a bigger "play" bike, then look at things like the Uzzi (adjustable geo means it's still pretty useable as a trail bike, but doesn't give a lot away to a full on DH rig until it gets really steep), Bullitt, Patriot, Reign X, SX Trail or if feel hard enough/DH biased enough to warrant a single front ring, then an Intense SS2 or a Transition TR250.
You don't need a DH bike from what you've said.
Woburn? Aston Hill? Even Cwm Carn... get a Covert.
Whats the point in getting a Covert, it's virtually identical in geometry to a 5, with slightly more travel.
It won't be the bike thats holding you back riding DH on a 5, it will be you.
Unless you have a spare grand or so, then just buy a second hand Iron Horse Sunday.
What wheelbase, H/A and BB height does your 5 have?
and what do you think would be your ideal geometry for DH?
Fair point hob nob.. if the head angles are the same on the two then just learn to ride. 
Or Alpine 160 ot Patriot... really no point in a full on DH bike though.
My mate has an Alpine, the geometry is pretty much the same as my Covert. Of course the Covert has a Hammershcmitd, but his Alpine seemed as capable as mine for normal people.
When I said justify, I mean justify spending loads on a bike I only use for a few weeks. Id rather have thousands tied up in my Covert which I ride 3/4 times a week every week.
Till I win the lottery, then I will have 52 of bikes I ride once or twice a week.
i have an alpine its got the 160 forks and the cane creek barrel shock on the rear, as said above save your self tons of cash and just buy maby bigger forks for the front 160s or 180s? and get a cane creek on the rear then it will feel like an alpine 
If you want to ride DH 'properly' and do sizeable jumps and drops then a trail bike will not be as suitable geometry wize & something may break. Fair enough Rowan Sorrel and D-Mac can rag a 5 but they are experts who dont pay for their frames.
I made my Heckler into 'DH lite' and it was OK on the local DH trails, but it was to heavy and lumpen on a normal ride compared to its previous lighter spec. As my riding progressed and I got more into DH I sold the Heckler and bought a Spesh Big Hit and just had a HT for normal riding. The difference is night and day and my riding has progressed further by the confidence afforded by a bike solely designed for being thumped down a hill (and also buying a full face & armour). Several friends have also done the'DH-Lite-XC bike' and then just bit the bullet and bought a proper big bike, but we are fortunate enough to have local DH trails.
Pimpmaster Jazz - Member
I've having rather filthy thoughts about buying a big bike after a week of being totally undergunned on my Five in Morzine last week.
Guilty! 
I'm looking at a Canyon Torque. Seems awfully good value. I live out here though so should use it a bit.
If you only do the occasional run then the Orange 5 or similar would be fine, but surely if your doing it over many days, many hours a day it would get awfully tiring. Like doing the alps on a hardtail, definitely possible, but after a couple of runs when your teeth are shattered, arms screaming for mercy and knees bleeding from the joint, a bit more bike is worthwhile?
Kev
The Southern Yeti - MemberFFS! There's more to what geometry works best DH than just what H/A the bike has
Fair point hob nob.. if the head angles are the same on the two then just learn to ride.Or Alpine 160 ot Patriot... really no point in a full on DH bike though.
the second you ride your new DH bike (properly) it loses a couple of grand in value, over the following years it loses value way more slowly.
Hey,
I'm having similar thoughts currently and ride in similar locations. I started out really wanting a S/C Bullit but have recently heard that they're being discontinued (not that that's a problem per se, I was just hoping to buy a new one - you can always go the 2nd hand route.)
At the moment, the bikes that I am considering are as follow:
Transition Bottlerocket
Santa Cruz Butcher / Heckler
Orange Patriot
Knolly Chilcotin (not too sure about UK availability at the moment though...)
Patriot. That way you can still ride it up to the top of big descents where there's no uplift. Ok so it's not a DH bike, so that itch may remain un-scratched, but you'd ride it more.
And there's a world of difference between something like that and a 5.
What wheelbase, H/A and BB height does your 5 have?
68.5 I believe, with a 140mm fork.
Unknown BB height.
and what do you think would be your ideal geometry for DH?
I'm thinking about a 63 degree head angle.
My main issue with the Five is getting twitchy at speed or on prolonged steep sections. In the slower stuff and on anything other than full DH territory it's great.
You don't need a DH bike from what you've said.Woburn? Aston Hill? Even Cwm Carn...
I agree. But it's not about *needing*, it's more about wanting to have more fun on something that's a little quicker and designed more specifically for the job (as well as keep up from others on similar bikes), potentially with a little racing down the line too. It also wouldn't be replacing the Five.
Unless you have a spare grand or so, then just buy a second hand Iron Horse Sunday.
That's the line I'm looking down. I'm not buying anything new for the amount it will be used.
GW - that may be so. but personally if the head angles about right... I'll rip 
I reckon you'll have more fun at all those places on a shorter travel bike. I'd go as far as saying that Woburn is probably most fun on a HT.
I'd love to hear you explain the "world of difference" between a Patriot and a 5 molgrips 
I'd suggest keeping an eye on Ebay and picking up something second hand. One of the lads I ride with picked up a Norco with single crown Marz 66s for £650 as his Alps bike. Heavy, but built with two chainrings so he rode it at Coed-y-Brenin the other week and loved it out in the Alps last week.
you don't need a d/h but it's great to ride one.
I broke the rear mech hanger on my heckler while in cham last week and hired a commencal d/h bike. For me it gave me much more confidence and enabled me to ride faster and harder and not worry so much about which line to take. In my case i suppose it was a skill compensator.
the cost of hiring was €75 per day which is too much for a 6 or 7 day biking trip.
i am going to build a d/h bike just for the alps and uplift days in the uk as i enjoyed my time riding one in cham
There's a 2008 Stinky frame with 66s on Southern Downhill at the mo for £250...
**edit** More of a freeridey thing I know, but a bit meatier than a 5
but a coil rear would be good
I digress.
How much does it cost to hire a big bad DH bike in the Alps?
Or just have some 140mm forks for the UK and some 180mm for trips abroad, cheaper than a whole new bike...
Or something that does both
Hmmm,
I've ridden a 5, a Patriot, an Alpine, a Sub Zero (that hurt!), and a Demo 8 in the Alps. They're all great and I had as much fun on each as I did on the next.
It's all about how fast / big you want to go really. Riding at the limit of the bike is great fun - just enjoy.
Having said that my Demo was super confidence inspiring and probably did make me push myself harder.
But, given the choice, I'd choose my Patriot as I can at least pedal that up the hills should I decide to get away from the DH runs for a day.
Horses for courses - but if it's just for the Alps I'd go shopping on SDH for a cheap 2nd hand bike. There are some good deals on 222s or Norcos on there - both of which would put a smile on your face relatively cheaply, and then not annoy you by sitting doing nothing in the UK.
no need for a downhill bike in the uk unless you are racing or regularly riding fort bill. that being said if i lived next to a decent uplift i'd get one.
agree with jam bo, coil shock and some lyriks would do the job nicely. either that or flog the 5 and get something with 160 to 180mm travel as that will be more fun than a dh bike in this country
If it is just for the alps, but a second hand DH bike and sell it when you get home! Until recently I have always had a DH bike, but I don't really get that much time to ride these days and was finding my custom pitch much more fun anyway.
It is set up with a van rc at the back, van r at the front, wide bars, 1x9 with chain guide, saint brakes and I love it. Most of my riding is around Aston, Woburn etc and it is much more fun than a full on DH bike.Then I stick on my gravity dropper and light wheels and I'm ready for some trail riding.
The good thing about using one bike for everything is you have no excuses. ie I would do that jump on my big bike! The first real test for me will be my next Inners trip, but I'm sure I will be hitting all the jumps and drops I usually do.
All that said, if you have the cash and the space a TR250 would be awesome!
As a few have mentioned above and previously, there are some cheap second hand DH bikes about on SDH and Pinkbike. You will get a pretty decent set-up for £1500, and you could easily spend that turning a smaller bike in to an "All Mountain" Jack of all trades, master of none.
If you are in the Alps every year, and do a handful of uplifts/push-ups in the UK (and have the space to store it) this makes the most sense to me, especially as you will still get some dough for it in a year or two.
I bought a 4 year old Kona Stab for £750 a year or so back, with 888s up front. It's hugely heavy, and you can't pedal it on even the slightest of gradients, but for steep Alpine trails it's perfect. I've tried my hardest to kill it but not managed so far.
That said, I bought a Patriot 66 with coil Fox 36 recently which is very nearly as good, though clearly it's nowhere near as fast over any given section.
not sure bout the 'wisdom' being spouted on here
a dedicated dh bike is an excllent thing- more travel, lower cog, better angles mean you can ride faster and harder for longer without worrying about destroying the bike and your confidence to tackle big stuff gets a massive boost
for the money i dont think you can beat the kona operator at the moment if you want to buy new
http://www.cyclelane.co.uk/products.php?plid=m1b3s1p3738&rs=gb
and believe it or not theres more than just 2 dh courses in the country
some amazing uplifts available at moelfre, caersws, pearce cycles, - run very regular uplifts and new dh traisl are opening in festiniog and near afan,and my fave, nant gwetheryin is an awesome place.....
,
plus loads more if you head up to scotland, they even have chairlifts in some places!
There's a really good Session 88 on pinkbike at the moment...
Brycey, the point I'm making is that a full on DH bike is not always the most fun. The tracks mentioned by the OP, Aston, Cwmcarn are a heap of fun on a six inch bike, Aston is probably faster on one given it's pedally nature. I actually chose to ride my pitch as my DH bike gathered dust.
Up until very recently I'd only ridden long travel hardtails (well, 130mm forks on my Trailstar) and just bought a Bullit as I will be off to Canada for a while soon. I'm riding the Bullit on the same trails I usually ride (Woburn, Aston Hill, FoD etc). It's good for the FoD as it's quite rooty there in places, but at Woburn I feel way too over biked. It's really heavy, pedals a bit crap and doesn't jump as well. I think a 160mm each end AM/FR bike would be ideal.
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