If Trump came out and said the most racist thing in the world and then shot someone of ethnic origin ninfan would be arguing about a spelling mistake in the press when they quoted Trump or the fact that they got the victims age wrong. If it quacks like a duck and looks like a duck then it’s better qualified to be president than Trump.

The forum snippiness helps no one and I genuinely would like to see us all being a little nicer to one another. It’s easy to dehumanise the person you’re debating with, outside of political threads we’re all much better behaved.

Jeez, nazi apologists^4

I) Charlottesville, if anything I would argue the opposite and say that his original statement was too early (facts are often unclear, see de menezes as an example) and that the earlier statement was ‘on the bounce’ due to press interest (and likely why it was even handed) but the facts don’t change, there were lots of fine people on both sides.

2) identity politics is toxic, both sides, however I think there’s far more hysteria, hatred and bile from the centre left mass than the centre right mass.

3) trumpism. A good look at trumps history told you from the start how it would go, peg a high watermark and bargain a compromise. Easy to forget that trumps critics on the right generally want him to be more extreme, whereas I think the crutica on the left are incapable of making a deal as they have resorted to “loss without limit” mindset (one for the miners strike geeks there). Essentially their real goal on, eg, DACA is a complete amnesty and unlimited chain migration (they need it to win future elections) (hey, they had an amnesty before, right) so they can’t compromise. Trumps deal on the table, DACA for the wall is eminently reasonable, they can’t pick it up

Sorry, to finish – the old line remains true, it’s the economy, stupid (and don’t forget healthcare)

the memo will will be interesting, a potential game changer

Lots of things about Trump’s presidency worry me. Whilevheadkines are grabbed by speculation as to whether Trump has an IQ that’s bigly or if he bothers to read his briefing notes, there’s a lot going on behind the scenes with a skeleton government and a cut to the bone diplomatic corps. In addition, we’ve Pruitt rewriting the remit of climate science to the extent that climate scientists are being gagged and that scientific panels are being weighted with equal numbers of skeptics. Why would the GOP deliberately hobble scientific advisors?

There’s some huge geopolitical changes going on in the background, authoritarian regimes over the world are becoming more prominent – Turkey, Poland, Hungary, Czech Republic, Russia, The Philippines, Venezuela, Saudi Arabia, Israel, China to name but a few. America is in the midst of rewriting its nuclear doctrine which will take decades to bring to conclusion (new doctrine means new weapons, means new rules of engagement etc). Clearly there is a long term strategic plan in the offering.

At the risk of appearing to single out Ninfan again, how far would you agree with the above and how does the lurch towards looser human rights, consumer protection and away from secularism concern you, if at all?

And I would like to add that there’s no right or wrong answer – I’m looking for honest thoughts and analysis.

I think the “stripped to the core government” is, however, something that, particularly at federal level, very much a core ethos of many Americans (not just republicans). It’s alien to us but central to them (I’ve pointed out how alien the firearms as the last defence to government is alien to us, but less strange when you consider the history of immigration to the us, particularly post WW2, and that when you grown up at your granny’s knee hearing tales of totalitarian persecution and genocide it looks different)

Regards totalitarian states abroad, I ask you only this, what thanks or benefi has the US ever had for being the worlds policeman for the last seventy years? Is Trumps objection to other countries freeloading on US defence spending to build their own countries (see eg. Germany’s NATO spending) really unreasonable?

Ps, scientific advisers etc. Sorry, I think they dug their own hole through years of thoroughly partisan behaviour… much like the FBI have (and it’s worth looking carefully at the history of the FBI under Hoover to see how federal agencies can act when left unchecked)

there’s far more hysteria, hatred and bile from the centre left mass than the centre right mass

Assuming there are “hysteria types” on both sides one has to remember one is a quest for equality for all and the other the quest for the mater race/racial purity. Given this there is no way your statement ca be true.

One hates those who are racists and bigots [ this goes all the way to the far left with people such as Merkel and May BTW] the other hates anyone with the wrong skin colour. Hating fascists is what everyone but fascists do. History will explain to you why this is the case if you morality cannot.

I wish the blocking script was working

No, please, go on Counter, please tell me. why the quote above is racist – I’d genuinely appreciate it

Who’s ‘Counter’ when he’s at home, then?
Can’t be arsed to spend time and effort for zero reward, there’s a programme about the moon that’s of far greater interest to me than your unhealthy obsession with the Super Callous Fragile Sexist Racist Lying POTUS.

No, come on countzero (counter was autocorrect and we all know editing isn’t working) pony up and back up your words.

its easy to cast people you don’t like as a racist to score points – it seems to have fallen down when it comes to backing up your claims.

:choke:

so come on, what was racist about that quote?

To be fair to Zulu, during the Charlottesville thread, he exhorted us all to wait and see what came out at trial – while at the same time spreading fake news – the source of which he wouldn’t divulge that evening. Perhaps he’d like to now? I remember searching about for it that evening, but I assume Zulu does gets his “news” from more specialist sites.

Well, the trial was held recently and hey ho, I’ll leave Zulu to go and google “what cake out” himself.

Imagine Zulu trying to fabricate extenuating circumstances for a nitcase that drives into a crowd of “leftie” protestors, killing one and maiming others! That would never happen would it?

<span style=”color: #444444; font-size: 16px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;”>“one has to remember one is a quest for equality”</span>

<span style=”color: #444444; font-size: 16px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;”>Like Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot were seeking?</span>

Interesting observations Ninfan, I’m aware that a tenet of Reaganism/Thatcherism is that small government is tax efficient and unintrusive and that three generations of separation from WW2 paints a different perspective. I also see your point on the conduct of climate scientists, I don’t agree as climate scientists were able to operate in relative safely from corporate lobbying under one party than the other but point noted and taken.

But you didn’t fully see that I was alluding to Trump’s USA also lurching towards an autocratic government style, I would call into question why the presidency would openly declare war on the media (while keeping fringe allied media outlets close), why there’s a decree about transgender soldiers for example. Why would climate scientists – who’ve a near universal consensus of what’s happening to our climate – need to be muzzled by unnecessary bureaucracy?

And perhaps most importantly, you didn’t give any indication as to how the above scenario might make you feel?

It’s the contrasts that are interesting. Trump wants to create jobs so big fan of coal, a shrinking industry with no real future but an industry like solar panels that is growing and generating jobs he cripples. If he genuinely wanted to create jobs and support Americans this makes no sense.

To repeat my earlier post, Ninfan, <span style=”background-color: #eeeeee; color: #444444; font-size: 16px;”>What makes you think there’s anything racist about being against illegal immigration? </span>

(Daredn’t quote it just yet! )

Like Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot were seeking?

No mate they were totalitarian dictators and all of them are bad whether its one like those or Hitler, Mussolini, Pinochet etc. Dictators are just bad irrespective of political leaning.
Are you worried the equality movement may be planning a totalitarian regime. If you dont mind me saying so, its a little far fetched, even for you to try.

The reality, in this millennia remains one side wants equality one side wants racial purity. Its not a hard choice.

Are you worried the equality movement may be planning a totalitarian regime. If you dont mind me saying so, its a little far fetched, even for you to try.

It’s not like Trump just tried to start legislation to be able to remove government officials who don’t agree with him…

So we have blaming foreigners for everything

Trying to get rid of people who don’t agree with you

Expanding the military

What Next?

<span style=”color: #444444; font-size: 16px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;”>But you didn’t fully see that I was alluding to Trump’s USA also lurching towards an autocratic government style, I would call into question why the presidency would openly declare war on the media (while keeping fringe allied media outlets close), why there’s a decree about transgender soldiers for example. Why would climate scientists – who’ve a near universal consensus of what’s happening to our climate – need to be muzzled by unnecessary bureaucracy?</span>

Arguably the most autocratic government the US ever had was the one that refused to allow 13 states to secede from the union and went to war on its own people.

As for declaring war on the media? Don’t you think it was them eho declared war on Trump?  It was the media who set themselves against a democratic system as the arbiters of what was “right” regardless of the Democratic outcome – all the wa6 back to the primaries.

climate scientists (etc. It’s not limited to them)? https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/aug/8/government-scientists-leak-climate-change-study-to/(there were later questions as to how much of a leak this actually was) but what you see is a consistent trait across several federal departments where they appear to think they are above democratic oversight and the rule of law – that it’s OK to break the rules wherever and whenever you feel you are ‘morally justified’ in doing so. That way utter chaos reins, it’s ultimatley anti democratic. We all have to operate within the law, and cannot rely on “oh well, the rules are flexible if you are doing it for the right cause” because that’s exactly the defence that tyrants would use

I’m still grappling with the notion that a state with an ideological goal of ultra-small government and minimilisation of costs would simultaneously threaten to withdraw from unilateral military obligations because fellow member states were alleged to be putting fewer Euros/Dollars in the pot whilst slashing social programmes from budgets would need to drastically expand its’ military spending and scope?

Eh what….

Scientists can only release what the President agrees with?

Utter BS, What you are proposing is a totalitarian regime.

The press did not declare war on Trump they held him to account, he just doesn’t like to be reminded of what he has said or done.

For instance http://trumpgolfcount.com/

Do you think it’s healthy government to be asking for lists of those scientists that are with the world consensus on climate?

“Scientists can only release what the president agrees with”

no, federal employees and federal funds are (rightly) subject to democratic oversight (by senate/congress) not free to do and say whatever they want

“The press did not declare war on Trump, they held him to account”

Then why do they keep getting caught out manipulating the news, lying about him and publishing unverified stories (later proven false)

http://thefederalist.com/2017/12/08/18-questions-cnn-needs-to-answer-after-getting-busted-for-fake-news/

Arguably the most autocratic government the US ever had was the one that refused to allow 13 states to secede from the union and went to war on its own people.

You could but you would have to have no recollection of history and be absurdly stupid.

Trump is an out and out imbecile /racist/insert other

We can wax lyrical over semantics as long as we like but it does not change the fact that he’s a discracefull specimen of the human race.

Then why do they keep getting caught out manipulating the news, lying about him and publishing unverified stories (later proven false)

Is that 18 examples in total?

https://www.factcheck.org/person/donald-trump/

http://www.politifact.com/personalities/donald-trump/

From one count that is 247-18, I don’t think the All Blacks have ever got that far ahead

no, federal employees and federal funds are (rightly) subject to democratic oversight (by senate/congress) not free to do and say whatever they want

They can be subject to oversight by Senate and Congress, they are but they can also dispute what the president says it should be on the record if the truth and facts are supressed. What you are proposing is a terrifying level of state control, we fund science and research to inform us, not to tell us what we want to hear. You accuse people of being in a leftie echo chamber but it appears Trump and possibly yourself fear the truth and will do anything to keep it secret.

If the US science community suddenly starts saying no comment when asked about it’s research into climate or other areas it becomes the laughing stock of the world.

Hold on, is Ninny preparing the ground for defending slavery?

What Next?

A peoples car?

Arguably the most autocratic government the US ever had was the one that refused to allow 13 states to secede from the union

What a stupidly facile and childish thing  to say

““Scientists can only release what the president agrees with”

no, federal employees and federal funds are (rightly) subject to democratic oversight (by senate/congress) not free to do and say whatever they want”

Wow! You really are blind and dumb. Science is above politics, and must be to be effective. When the Government starts telling the scientists what they can and can’t say, it is acting irresponsibly and not in the best interests of the Country, and the rest of the World.

Science is its own self-regulating industry: it doesn’t need some arrogant, half-witted baffoon telling them what they can and can’t publish. That is totalitarian.

This stupid forum won’t let me edit, so here’s a follow-up: Trump is only silencing the EPA and it’s scientists so he can justify his misguided obsession with revitalising the oil and coal industries, so he and his mates can reap the financial rewards.

Anyway that Russian sanctions thing and that oligarch list

<span style=”font-family: ff-tisa-web-pro, Georgia, Times, ‘Times New Roman’, serif; font-size: 18px; background-color: #f7f8f8;”>The Trump administration informed lawmakers Monday that new Russia sanctions called for in a bipartisan bill passed last year are not necessary yet because the measure is already “serving as a deterrent.”</span>

<span style=”font-family: ff-tisa-web-pro, Georgia, Times, ‘Times New Roman’, serif; font-size: 18px; background-color: #f7f8f8;”>The administration released the unclassified version of the oligarchs list late Monday, after its announcement on the non-issuance of new sanctions. The Treasury Department noted that the roster “is not a sanctions list” and that individuals listed do not “meet the criteria for designation under any sanctions program” as a result of their inclusion.</span>

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/01/29/russia-sanctions-white-house-congress-376813

Well seems the WH isn’t keen on actually following thru and implementing it.

Hmm quoting and editing functionality seems a bit off ATM 🙂

<span style=”color: #444444; font-size: 16px; background-color: #eeeeee;”>Hold on, is Ninny preparing the ground for defending slavery?</span>

Clearly slavery was good for the slaves.

It removed them from countries that were shitholes and gave them the chance to contribute towards the then agriculture-based economy whilst being provided with all the corn they could eat.

Shirley?

Trump is only silencing the EPA and it’s scientists so he can justify his misguided obsession with revitalising the oil and coal industries, so he and his mates can reap the financial rewards

Most definately…

Pipelines all over natural parks and the big Russian Oil deal(thats currently blocked due to sanctions.)

“https://www.politico.com/story/2018/01/29/russia-sanctions-white-house-congress-376813
<p style=”padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; font-size: 12px; vertical-align: baseline; background-image: initial; background-position: initial; background-size: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; line-height: 1.2em; color: #444444; margin: 1rem 0px !important;”>Well seems the WH isn’t keen on actually following thru and implementing it.”</p>

Donny has looked at the list and realised there would be no-one left to pay freshly-laundered top dollar for his condos and apartments.

From that well-known organ of leftie hand-wringing libtardery, George Osborne’s London Evening Standard:

“<span style=”font-family: headlinefont; font-size: 14px; font-weight: bold;”>Ever the performer,</span><span style=”font-family: headlinefont; font-size: 14px; font-weight: bold;”> </span>Donald Trump<span style=”font-family: headlinefont; font-size: 14px; font-weight: bold;”> </span><span style=”font-family: headlinefont; font-size: 14px; font-weight: bold;”>delivered his</span><span style=”font-family: headlinefont; font-size: 14px; font-weight: bold;”> </span>first formal State of the Union address<span style=”font-family: headlinefont; font-size: 14px; font-weight: bold;”> </span><span style=”font-family: headlinefont; font-size: 14px; font-weight: bold;”>in the style of an Oscar winner. Under Article II, Section 3, Clause 1 of the US Constitution, the President is mandated “from time to time [to] give to the Congress information” on the wellbeing of the republic.</span>
<p style=”font-family: bodyfont; font-size: 14px;”>But Trump’s address — one of the longest on record — was less an exercise in statesmanship or policy navigation than emotional manipulation and pseudo-civic sentimentality: a long catalogue of anecdotes and personal tributes masquerading as a plan for government. It has become common practice for presidents to salute invited guests whose valour or sacrifice embodies the best of America. In this case, it often seemed that Trump was exploiting them, one after another, as human shields.</p>
<p style=”font-family: bodyfont; font-size: 14px;”>At the beginning of a year that will culminate in November’s mid-term elections, it was no surprise that the President should make so much of the US economy’s comparative strength. It was equally predictable that so many of his claims should be misleading or downright mendacious.</p>

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<p style=”font-family: bodyfont; font-size: 14px;”>It is true that 2.4 million jobs have been created in the US since the 2016 election — but the rate of hiring during his 11 months in the Oval Office has been the slowest since 2010. To date, America’s economic resurgence has been Trump’s political oxygen supply during his most perilous moments. But that resurgence has its roots in the Obama years and tough decisions taken by the US Federal Reserve.</p>
<p style=”font-family: bodyfont; font-size: 14px;”>Claim after claim crumbled as fact-checkers assessed the speech in real time. No, Trump has not “ended the war on beautiful, clean coal” — in fact, he is trying to cut the funding of the Department of Energy’s Office of Fuel Research, which oversees cleaner, safer energy technologies.</p>

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<p style=”font-size: 22px; font-family: headlinefont; font-weight: bold;”>Trump boasts of ‘extraordinary success’ in State of the Union speech</p>

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<p style=”font-family: bodyfont; font-size: 14px;”>And no, he has not “eliminated more regulations in our first year than any administration in history” — according to the Office of Management and Budget, Bill Clinton, George W Bush and Barack Obama all did a better job at cutting red tape in their first months. And no, he has not “enacted the biggest tax cuts and reforms in American history” — that distinction belongs to Ronald Reagan, whose measures in 1981 amounted to 2.89 per cent of GP (compared with Trump’s 0.9 per cent).</p>
<p style=”font-family: bodyfont; font-size: 14px;”>And no, those cuts will not “provide tremendous relief for the middle classes and small business” — since by 2027 those earning less than $75,000 will experience tax increases while those who earn more will continue to make savings. Truly, this president’s infatuation with “alternative facts” is undimmed.</p>
<p style=”font-family: bodyfont; font-size: 14px;”>By convention, the State of the Union Address is an opportunity to nurture bipartisanship, to heal the wounds of the nation and to extend the hand of friendship as well as the fist of resolve. In this respect Trump went through the rhetorical motions, affecting to seek common ground on immigration and prescription drug prices, declaring that: “All of us, together, as one team, one people and one American family, can do anything.”</p>
<p style=”font-family: bodyfont; font-size: 14px;”>But, really, who was he trying to fool? Even as he mouthed these platitudes, his polarising temperament seethed implacably — and broke through. When Trump insisted that “Americans are dreamers too”, he was conspicuously appropriating the word applied to immigrants brought illegally to the US as children, protected by the much-contested Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals (DACA) programme.</p>

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<p style=”font-family: bodyfont; font-size: 14px;”>When he said so pointedly that “we proudly stand for the national anthem”, he was yet again reproaching those NFL players who have knelt while it is sung in protest at police brutality against black citizens. In making so much of the Salvadoran-American gang MS-13, he sought, as he has since he launched his presidential campaign, to equate undocumented immigration with violent crime.</p>
<p style=”font-family: bodyfont; font-size: 14px;”>In announcing that the Guantanamo Bay detention camp was to stay open, he was telling the world that America can, and will, do as it pleases. This was Trump at his most deplorable, using a great occasion of state to peddle the ugliest populism.</p>
<p style=”font-family: bodyfont; font-size: 14px;”>Yet for this president the congressional pulpit is just another stage —another venue for his polarising oratory and strychnine-laced theatricality. The wrestling ring, campaign rallies, social media: all are platforms for his unchecked ego and limitless caprice.</p>
<p style=”font-family: bodyfont; font-size: 14px;”>Richard Nixon at least understood the subtleties of the US Constitution, even as he subverted them. But Trump is simply indifferent to its content, solemnity and significance (according to Michael Wolff’s Fire and Fury, the campaign aide deputed to explain the text to him reported back: “I got as far as the Fourth Amendment before his finger is pulling down on his lip and his eyes are rolling back in his head.”)</p>
<p style=”font-family: bodyfont; font-size: 14px;”>Pay no heed to those who claim — even now — that Trump can still be tamed by the institutions and conventions of Washington. He has not retreated an inch from the spirit of his inaugural address and its invocation of “American carnage”. He is still the man who claimed that “very fine people” marched alongside the neo-Nazis in Charlottesville; who has scorned Britain’s response to Islamist terrorism; who tried to sack Robert Mueller, the special counsel investigating the Trump campaign’s alleged collusion with Russia; who was vexed by the judiciary’s resistance to his proposed immigration ban from seven countries.</p>
<p style=”font-family: bodyfont; font-size: 14px;”>Soon he will be back on Twitter, raging in cyberspace at enemies real and imagined, reducing his great office to trolling with nuclear weapons. From time to time his duties compel him to wear the fancy dress of a real president. But — as last night’s masquerade made painfully clear — the illusion never lasts.</p>

Sorry about that.  I tried editing five seconds later but had already been timed out.

Is it me,  or is the site getting even worse?

I don’t want to be an Eyore about it, but I wish whatever finger is at rest on the issue,  would get itself extracted…