Your riding sounds similar to mine, up here in the Pennines. I use an '08 Patriot as my general bike. It's not so light, but it's bombproof, very fun, very low maintenance, fine for all day rides if you're not in a mad rush, good for anything in the UK and perfect in BC, Spain and the Alps. I could shed a load of weight if I ditched the heavy duty High Rollers, but they just grip too well and I've had one puncture in 2 years.
Bike Forum
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Do we over build our bikes here?
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Posted 3 years ago #
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Gw - It was a bontrager stem. Steerer end held firmly, a handlebar thru it, all my weight on one end of the bars - no noticable flex. the bars flexed a fair bit - about 2 cm but the stem did not move any visible amount - either bending or twisting.
As for brakes - don't patronise me. I know the difference between a car park test and going down a steep hill. Plenty of modulation and plenty of power even on a steep downhill stopping from high speed. I do have my brakes set up well. Single finger will lock the brake if I want under any conditions. even with all the weight on the front wheel
Posted 3 years ago # -
ive recently beefed up the build on my full sus bike bigger wheels instead of the olympics and ive swapped minis for m4 and front rear bolt thrus it feels much better and even when adding a gravity dropper and bigger tyres its only bumped the weight up 2.5 pounds so nowt really
im mid build on my new ht(will be finished tomorrow after nights ) ive sold my cannondale frame and forks and building a 456 up ive took the talas from the sus and stuck my floats on it (figured a bit of adjustability for the 456 would be good)rest is xt/hope on xm321/ and on-one race face kit fairly budget build for fun and durability and to outlast my ride into things style lol
brakes are oro biancos which i had on the dale but i tried them with bigger rotors and i love the bigger ones 203 front and rear stops on a dime with one finger and feels great (prob drop to a 180 rear when one pops up on classifieds)
reckon the 456 and the full sus will weigh about the same but both built to last and ride
Posted 3 years ago # -
I can stop my bike with a vigorous wiggle of my pinky finger.
GNARGNAR SX Trails can be built up light, my 08 SX is built up to about 33lbs without too much effort.
Posted 3 years ago # -
Plenty of modulation and plenty of power even on a steep downhill stopping from high speed. I do have my brakes set up well. Single finger will lock the brake if I want under any conditions. even with all the weight on the front wheel
If you think V2s are as good as Minis then you are an idiot, and you've never ridden fast! Or maybe you and I have a different idea of what 'plenty' of power means. If you can lock up the front wheel with one finger with 160mm rotors then all I can think is that you ride a lot of gravel or you have really slippery tyres.
As for brakes - don't patronise me.
Bloody ell, chips on shoulders lads. I never patronise anyone, I just think you're wrong or you don't ride like I do. In any case that bit about brakes was aimed at anyone not specifically you.
Posted 3 years ago # -
yeah but you mince TJ....we establised that ages ago....
Posted 3 years ago # -
Molgrips - I am not denying there are better brakes but for 90% of folk 160 mm rotors is fine if you have your brakes set up properly For sure the 160mm minis I have have enough power to exceed the grip of the tyres on any surface in any situation. And that is with good tyres on any surface.
People often mistake initial bite for outright power. IME grip is always the limiting factor not the brake
Posted 3 years ago # -
but for 90% of folk 160 mm rotors is fine if you have your brakes set up properly
Now who's patronising whom? I know what works for my style of riding thanks!
People often mistake initial bite for outright power.
Hehe.
Grip is not the limiting factor for me in my riding. In my experience.. which counts for me
Posted 3 years ago # -
For sure the 160mm minis I have have enough power to exceed the grip of the tyres on any surface in any situation.
My 165 mini, set up beautifully, couldnt stop a passing fly - it remains on the rear where it sees little use. Nothing short of a 4 pot 185 up front stops my 230lbs lump in a decent time
The 165 boiled in the alps too, and I dont hang off the brakes all the time.
Posted 3 years ago # -
yup most folk overbuild their bikes. wheels is the big one.
i run stans olympic rims on two bikes, and for the 1st time since getting them, i put a wee dink in the rear on the ht. I'm not that lightweight at 13st. just ride pretty light.Posted 3 years ago # -
This is turning into one of the best willy waving threads ever.
As it happens, my bike is massively over built, with big chunky rims, 140mm Maxle forks, heavyweight DH stem, biggish rotors and huge tyres all year round.
I'm overweight, clumsy and ride faster than my capabilities should allow. My local trails consist of mainly granite infested technical terrain. My bike is overbuilt to offset the aforementioned factors.
If that is not all right with anyone, I couldn't give a flying ****.Posted 3 years ago # -
I don't normally pipe up in these online arguments as I don't want my day ruined but this time I shall. why do people feel the need to always shout down tandemjeremy and say he's an idiot or his thoughts are pish. He always airs his views in a good manner.
There is know doubt a 220mm disc will have more stopping power than a 160mm. Is this needed in the UK if your brakes are of good quality and set up well I would say no. I used to run 180mm mono minis horrible loud brakes I couldn't look them up without really hauling on them, perhaps organic pads would have helped but the bike got stolen.
I now run shimano saint brakes with 160mm rotors the weight penalty of the caliper (very small over XT) is negated by the rotor, they lock up if I want or are just nice and strong if thats what I want. Also servo wave is amazing. I feel perhaps disc brakes of a few seasons back were not of todays quality, with todays brakes I reckon a 160 is sufficient for a hardtail/short travel bike on any UK trail.
People run DH stems because there short rather than due to them needing a overbuilt stem.
GNAR out of the components you asked about I would buy Thomson X4 stem, easton EA70 or the easton carbon DH if your budget will allow, with slx or xt cranks.
Posted 3 years ago # -
Chaps - this was in reference to the OP - who posed the question "do we overbuild our bikes?"
For sure some - really fast riders, DH racy types or "well built chaps" will need more brakes - but for the majority a well set up 160 mm disc is plenty for XC use. I have bigger brakes on the tandem and could do with some V2s - that needs it.
Coffeeking - if your 165mm mini won't stop a passing fly then it is not set up properly cos mine have plenty of power.
Posted 3 years ago # -
TJ - instead of hangin off one side of the bars, try standing over the bike as if riding it with one hand on each grip and wrench the bars (one arm pushing while the other pulls) as you (sorry, I :wink:) would in use. I can assure you any long lightweight XC stem will flex noticably.
I use short (40mm-55mm) low rise DH stems on all my bikes as it gives me the correct position, handling and strength/stiffness, they are not overly heavy at around 250gPosted 3 years ago # -
GW - maybe its a good stem but I tried again today after the earlier post - the bars flex loads but nothing visible in the stem
Posted 3 years ago # -
Bring it here!
Posted 3 years ago # -
Thanks to all the replies, Im glad I put the thread up. Tandem Jeremy I have one very simple and easy way for you to determine stem strength - borrow a diabolous. You might not be able to actually see flex, but I guarantee you will feel the improved stiffness in something like the diabolous. It's very noticeable. Same with their cranks, stiffer than anything else - I cant honestly say I can feel the difference between saints and xt for example, but diabolous cranks are in a different league so, noticeable stiffer than saints.... there you go. Same for the stem, much stiffer than most other dh stems.
Also, speed gradient, weight and cornering forces involved in dh racing, especially on steeper stuff requires a bigger rotor. Simple as that. I've compared like for like and it's not the same, at the limits you do notice. Hence Im keeping my dh braking set up.
Posted 3 years ago # -
Gnargnar.
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For sure some - really fast riders, DH racy types or "well built chaps" will need more brakes - but for the majority a well set up 160 mm disc is plenty for XC use.
As for the stem - steering input forces are slight. I seriously doubt you could bend any stem with steering inputs. Bars flex far more
Posted 3 years ago # -
My 7yr old daughter has a Diablos stem/bars (cut down) on her wee 20" hardtail.. overbuilt? slightly!! ha ha
(fitted to replace the overly long cheap pish Spesh spec.)forgetting lack of balls, IMO along with steepness, it's rider weight, length of descent and number of corners that requires a rider to run a larger rotor.
Posted 3 years ago # -
Jeremy, i don't think it's a case of bending it. A stiffer stem feels stiffer. Makes steering input feel more direct, more immediate, makes you feel more in tune with the bike, gives you more confidence. Might not be strictly necessary but it feels good. Never mind the fact it will out last you.
Posted 3 years ago # -
As for the stem - steering input forces are slight. I seriously doubt you could bend any stem with steering inputs. Bars flex far more
TJ - I'm guessing by "bend", you actually mean "flex" - Sorry, but you haven't got a clue what you're talking about, controlling a bike is far more complex than sitting there turning the bars while ambling along in a deerstalker hat.
Here's something for you to think about - when you are pushing the bondaries of front wheel grip in a corner and you feel the front end start to break free, what do you do to save it from washing out completely?Posted 3 years ago # -
GW - I do not doubt that for some its needed. My point simply was (in answer to the op) that many folk seem to overspec bikes. I fully accept I am not the fastest or gnarliest of riders - very much middle of the pack. You and gnar might be able to tell these sorts of things, but from what I have seen many folk seem to go for burly components without the need for them or the skills to use them
As for your question I do it by instinct so can't really tell you. I probably do it all wrong anyway as my reflexes are also from riding the tandem and motorbikes.
Posted 3 years ago # -
if you go back and re-read my posts I've already given you the answer
Posted 3 years ago # -
There are a lot of people suggesting their brakes are well set up. I don't get it.
Back when you had the one rider in a big group who had zen-like powers with cantilevers I'd understand the comment, but with hydraulic discs, what is there to set up that will affect power (other than basic bleeding)?
I'm curious.
Posted 3 years ago # -
basic bleeding
take away the basic bit as some find it a nightmare. some brakes are harder to bleed than others. i really should buy a bottom up bleed kit but at £50 bit priceyPosted 3 years ago # -
Fair point, I accept some are probably worse than others. I used to find my old Maguras a bit tricky and relied for most of the time on zip-ties to keep the brakes open over the course of a few days. Did the tick, albeit lazy...
But I was wondering if there was some other trick others were using (I'm guessing not, but thought I'd ask).
Posted 3 years ago # -
iamtheresurection - maybe its all subjective - but some folk claim insufficient power for their (for example) hope minis on 160mm but mine have plenty of power ( if not a great deal of initital bite)
My guess is that the folk who say they don't have much power from these brakes actually dont have them working properly. I am convinced that small discs working at a high % of their capacity give better performance than big discs working at a low % of their capacity.
There are other variables other than bleeding - sticky pistons, glazed pads for example.
It may be that the soft initial bite leads folk to believe there is not enough power? Maybe its about expectations?
Posted 3 years ago # -
am convinced that small discs working at a high % of their capacity give better performance than big discs working at a low % of their capacity.
You might be right, but I've got no idea if working temperature versus performance on mountain bike brakes is parabolic or linear. I'd also have thought that a larger rotor has better leverage.
I ride 180/160 and for the kind of riding I do it's more than enough power. The same size rotors on current XTR wasn't confidence inspiring, but great on Louise/Saints. You're almost certainly right that it's all about expectaion.
We've had complete brake failure on our tandem on long (road) descents with Magura Louise 180/180 - which I think a larger rotor still would have resisted more. Had a few scary corners, with cleat marks left in the tarmac...
Posted 3 years ago # -
Iamtheressurection - tandems need all the brakes you can get! A couple of times we have cooked ours - 205 front 185 rear
A larger rotor will give more stopping power for sure all other things being equal - but might not be getting up to its best temperature which could reduce performance?
Too many variables to be sure - pad compounds for instance will vary as to what their best operating temperature is, riding style and so on will make a difference as well.
Posted 3 years ago # -
There are other variables other than bleeding - sticky pistons, glazed pads for example.
Correct caliper alignment, mounts faced, pistons moving equally/freely, pads hitting the disc at the same time, all make a significant difference to brake performance.
Posted 3 years ago # -
yes
Posted 3 years ago # -
If you want perfect brakes bleed from the caliper up using a kit such as this
£52?! Unbelievable!
Posted 3 years ago # -
GW - Member
Here's something for you to think about - when you are pushing the bondaries of front wheel grip in a corner and you feel the front end start to break free, what do you do to save it from washing out completely?
Easy! Big, huge, handfuls of brake
Posted 3 years ago # -
foot out, flat out....
Posted 3 years ago #
Topic Closed
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