Thinking of upgrading my shock on my 09 Spicy 316. I've upgraded most other things and now it's the shocks turn. I'm thinking of coil but can anyone suggest a shock, have any experience of a rockshox, fox, marzocchi? I know CCDB but I cannot justify the price after already spending close on £1500 upgrading.

Help please…..

Ash

I love coil shocks but the first question is, does it suit your type of riding. next question would be, are you willing to accept the weight penalty. After that, I'd say get a basic fox model and get it custom valved for you with the correct spring rate fitted.

yep, the vanilla rc is a reat shock when ste up well, i like the new dhx rc4 too but it isnt cheap!

also thinking of a coil shock, the pushed van r from tf tuned looks like a good option.

yep, basic shock with valving, and spring for you and your bike/ride style would be the best way to go.

i have a 5th Element, TF tuned and its fab.

The CCDB is amazing but unless you really know what you want and really value the performance boost it can offer, you're better off getting the basic Van R and having it tuned, either by Mojo or TF (which could also be a 'Push' tune).

I swap between a CCDB and an RP23 Boost Valve in standard tune on my Helius AM. I can absolutely tell the difference, but for most trail riding applications, I am as happy on the RP23 BV as I am on the CCDB and I am glad of the weight saving.

Having said that, as soon as it gets rocky, the CCDB makes a big difference.

Loving my CCDB you will soon forget the weight penalty!

Stunning performance but it does take a wee bit to tweak and I still got a bit of dialing in to do.

Malcom at CCDB is a tremendous help and even sent me an FOC extra spring to try.

Agree that it does also depend on where you ride and what style of riding you do.

Good Luck!

I have a 2011 van rc and highly recommend it. Ti spring on mine saves a bit of weight and low speed compression gives you a bit of pro pedal type damping should you need it for the climb. I do have an rp23 to swap out for longer more xc orientated days in the saddle but the van rc spends more time on there.
On the downs the coil comes into its own.

Just buy a a van of DHX and have it pushed. Don't bother getting the top of the range DHX if your going to have it pushed though becuase the push tuning removes all theinternals making a DHX 5 perform the same as a DHX 3 just an example there.

Just a note: The only reason for buying a Ti spring is to save a bit of weight (not really cost effect), steel springs perform as good if not better and the spring rate is more accurate.
That said I have aTi spring on my RC4, but thats becuase I'm a tart.

RCS Ti spring are more accurate and perform better. There are some cheaper Ti springs out there, pays your money take your choice.
Think I'd go for a 2011 van RC shock. Without PUSH.

+1 Mr Frosty the 2011 Van RC's are pretty good, would go for a Diverse Ti coil on it though 😉

What about the RockShox Vivid 5.1 Coil??? anyone

Please explain why a Ti spring is better than steel spring.

I would never recommend a Ti spring over a Steel one, there simply is no no really reason to spend £1 per gram of weight saving and gain nothing in performance of the shock.

In my somewhat limited experience of coil shocks, a good Ti spring feels waaaay more supple than the equivalent steel, to the point where you might even want the next spring weight up.

As for whether they offer a performance advantage for the "average trail rider" I'm undecided.

The only time my coil shock felt better than my air shock was on low speed, large (ish) drops on DH courses, where the air shock would blow it's beans and go right through it's travel…

Coil and air shocks are a different thing. Air shocks overheat (the new vivid may not) on long fast descents and then stop working correctly.

Anway, I fail to understand how a 500lb steel spring will be more supple than a 500lb Ti spring they have the same exact compression rate therefore they are the same. Also Ti spring bind more than steel springs which means the Ti spring effectively becomes stiffer, than the steel one. Techincally that should not be a problem because coil shocks should be fitted with thrust bearings but thats another tangent.

However what you may experience is the fact that one of those springs was poorly made and therefore was not the spring rate it stated. Coil springs on bikes can have a 20% range on them if made poorly.

Personally I think the whole Ti performing better thing is all in the mind, because they cost so much and many pros are paid to use them. Looking around though and you will find lots of pros not using them.

I understand that a Ti coil should feel the same as the equivalent steel at the same spring rate.

However, they are often more responsive than steel so can give the impression of feeling softer i.e. They respond where a steel spring wouldn't.

It's hard to explain and in my experience wasn't to do with the quality of re spring as both were very high quality Curnutt springs…

Dirt mag really rate the vivid as great value, no experiance personally though..

http://www.locotuning.co.uk/about-ti-springs.html

RopeyReignRider – Member

I understand that a Ti coil should feel the same as the equivalent steel at the same spring rate.

However, they are often more responsive than steel so can give the impression of feeling softer i.e. They respond where a steel spring wouldn't.

It's hard to explain and in my experience wasn't to do with the quality of re spring as both were very high quality Curnutt springs…

Are you 100% sure they are identical spring rates? I bet there is a fair old tolerance on their production. From my limited understanding of springs (from failed A-Level physics I might add 🙂 ) I thought a spring was a spring, it could be made from any material but assuming it was the same spring rate it should react exactly the same.

The main reason to go for a Ti spring is because they look cooler

I've read blurb on the RCS website and a few other places that talk about less 'internal resistance' or something about Ti coils.

I've had two, and I do agree with retro83. They've felt more compliant. I don't know enough about ti to agree or disagree, and its a possibility that both my ti springs were undersprung compared to my steel ones, but maybe theres something in it?

RCS talk about it here:

http://www.rentoncoilspring.com/performance/why_titanium/

Additionally, elsewhere on the site they point out that less coils are needed in a ti spring, meaning that the total length of the coil is greater and allows greater sensitivity.

RCS talk about it here:

http://www.rentoncoilspring.com/performance/why_titanium/

So they're basically saying, because it has a lower mass, it will respond quicker:

Lower mass systems generate less inertia and accelerate faster allowing better "responsiveness".

However, the difference is going to be fairly small on a mountain bike spring, isn't it?

I don't fully understand what this means:

In demanding applications this can cause spring surge where the spring coils are moving in the opposite direction of the shock travel.

I've looked up the definition of spring surge, and it seems to be related to the resonant freq. which they say is 44% higher on ti compared to steel. What they don't mention is whether this has any real world effect on springs fitted to mountain bike suspension.

I'm neither an engineer or a physicist so I can't quantify the magnitudes of those differences.

Given the forces involved in mtb, (550lbs first inch, 1100lbs second inch in my case), perhaps the relatively small difference in percentage terms results in something appreciable on the trail?

I'm inclined to think that the longer coil length accounts for the increased sensitivity though.

I wonder if my noticing the difference was to do with the fact it was on a Foes Curnutt shock and hence the springs were fookin mahoosive?!?

This is my point.

Scienceofficer – Member

I'm neither an engineer or a physicist so I can't quantify the magnitudes of those differences.

Given the forces involved in mtb, (550lbs first inch, 1100lbs second inch in my case), perhaps the relatively small difference in percentage terms results in something appreciable on the trail?

Could well be.

I'm inclined to think that the longer coil length accounts for the increased sensitivity though.

Why is that? I thought that a s long as the spring is not binding, it should be same (again this could well be wrong)

A long shock/spring for a given travel means that its maximum stroke length will be greater, and henc you will be less likely to experience any 'notchy' feel. I guess this is more important for an air shock(?) where there is friction in the shock itself, but it also means that pivots etc. in contact with the shock will rotate over a greater range, also potentially giving a smoother feel.

Not a great explanation, I know.

poppa – Member

A long shock/spring for a given travel means that its maximum stroke length will be greater, and henc you will be less likely to experience any 'notchy' feel. I guess this is more important for an air shock(?) where there is friction in the shock itself, but it also means that pivots etc. in contact with the shock will rotate over a greater range, also potentially giving a smoother feel.

Not a great explanation, I know.

That would indeed be true if you changed the shock/damper also, but not just changing the coil as the shock itself will stay the same length.

OK, i'll fess up, i've never even used a coil shock! I just thought that (i.e. the explanation above) was what people meant.

less coils are needed in a ti spring, meaning that the total length of the coil is greater

You mean if you unraveled a Ti coil it will be longer than an unraveled steel one ? If you have less coils then the total length will be shorter, no ?

And I took a RP23off myheckler an dput on a DHX 5. Coud only tell the difference when going very fast over bumpy rocky ground TBH.

My initial thought is that yes, Ti springs are lighter, but also that the idea of them 'responding quicker' or being 'more responsive' has a whiff of BS about it.

As far as I was aware both these materials should behave elastically in their operational range and hence should feel pretty much identical, no?

I'm not an expert in these matters so am more than willing to submit to greater knowledge/understanding though!

less coils are needed in a ti spring, meaning that the total length of the coil is greater

I said that, but I didn't mean it. Sorry.

The logic is that because there are less coils there is more 'free coil space' for compression is can somehow be more supple. A spring works in torsion, so I guess its ultimate length (if unwound) is of little importance.

I'm not saying its right, just trying to see the logic.

Back to the topic. I've been running my Nicolai Helius AM with an air shock for three months, first run today with a coil and I think I prefer the air… the horror of it!!!
It runs higher with the coil shock and I actually prefer the way the bike settles into the air shock travel. Spring weight is correct and sag is bang on with both shocks so interesting results. Not 100% happy with the air shock as it packs down a bit so next stop is a chat with tft about options such as PUSH which I did with great results on my last bike. Or maybe a new Manitou ISX6???

Upgrade for performance only… figure out what you want to change and why.

A shedload of how a shock feels is down to the damping. Its why I ended up with a Pushed VanR and a Pushed RP3 so I could isolate the differences of the spring medium.

On those particular two, once they were valved the same, there was not alot of difference. It'll be different on different bikes mind, due to leverage ratio and whether they're rising or falling rate.

I did my little experiment on a HL 5spot.

hmmmm it's quite interesting though and I do wonder how much of a performance advantage a coil shock has for most "normal" trail riders.

I can't for example, imagine that an air shock would overheat to the point where the damping goes wobbly at say a trail centre.

However, I have experienced several air shocks turning to mush on fast, rocky and very long descents (e.g. down the back of the hill opposite Jacob's Ladder).

I dunno

*shrugs*

Great thing with coil shocks is reliability. Since they are full of oil the internals stay better longer, rather like the old Marz oil-bath forks.

If you have a few bikes you dont need to fiddle around checking air pressures when you ride. With air shocks especially where high pressures are used they can be prone to loosing air when stored.

I use a ti spring as its lighter and looks bling… saves a bit of weight but not a lot!

Ive had a few air shock bikes. Although TF managed to make them better I never found the shock reliable and changed to coil.

I dont think there is that much weight difference between Coil and Air shocks either if you compare like for like.

If you buy a new Fox & get it custom valved or Pushed it will be "heaven". My new Fox (2010 middle of range model) I bought from TF and had pushed is absolutely brilliant. Its on my old favourite '05 Enduro SX Trail. TF recommended that I go for the vanilla as after their work I wouldnt need the pedal pro adjustments. I still went for the model with pedal pro adjustments just in case. TF were right though. The platform is so good they set i never need to adjust it, and the Push tuning makes it feel "bottomless".

Great thing with coil shocks is reliability. Since they are full of oil the internals stay better longer, rather like the old Marz oil-bath forks.

Assume you mean the damper? In which case so are air shocks.

If you have a few bikes you dont need to fiddle around checking air pressures when you ride. With air shocks especially where high pressures are used they can be prone to loosing air when stored.

Not experienced this in the last 4 years of running air shocks, but clearly less seals = less to go wrong.

I dont think there is that much weight difference between Coil and Air shocks either if you compare like for like.

DHX Coil is 1lb heavier than a DHX Air, or 1.4lb heavier than an RP23.

However, I have experienced several air shocks turning to mush on fast, rocky and very long descents (e.g. down the back of the hill opposite Jacob's Ladder).

Piggy back coils have much more oil in than a regular air shock does, I reckon a DHX air wouldn't have that issue (I certainly never noticed it on mine)

If your on a budget, you can pick up new Manitou Swingers a good prices. These were made by Progressive. The 6 way is near identical to the 5th Element 😉

I've over heated my RP3 a couple of times on some of the descents on little old Mendip when I left it in the mid setting by accident.