If you're speaking from an unexperienced and uneducated (about the subject in hand) point of view your opinion is being proclaimed from a point of ignorance and no doubt based on sentimentality

That's a bit of an assumption isn't it?! One can surely express an opinion about something while remaining objective, neutral, open to changing their mind and aware of their ignorance about a subject can't they?

I hope so anyway, 'cos that's the way I've been living my life for the past few years!

I went to a fiesta in a spanish village where the highlight was chasing a bull through the streets with flaming torches strapped to its horns. My first thought was how terrified the bull must be, but it wasn't, just f*cking mad and very keen to get even. I ended up admiring the bull a lot, not so much the local village heros, who were falling over themselves to get out of its way as soon as it glanced in their direction. Fighting bulls are awesome. Just give it a fighting chance…

The same argument can be applied to humans

Almost, but not quite. For example, I know I wouldn't like to see a human be killed by a bull. 😉

The rational debate could go right down the spiral until we're talking Descartes' "cogito ergo…" stuff – but let's just agree that we'll never know exactly how thoughtful a bull is. To that extent, we cannot really emphathise with it on a meaningful level.

What we can be a wee bit more sure of its that our fellow humans can and will think about things to varying extents. But we're still made of the same basic building blocks as other animals and are still possessed of instincts and emotions which run deeper than the conscious mind.

Sometimes it takes something quite shocking to remind us that we are not as special as we think we are. Perhaps a life and death spectacle like a bullfight?

Read: Death in the afternoon by Ernest Hemmingway

I'm not reading anything written by that misogynistic, alcoholic, boorish tw4t.

Visit: Las Ventas in Madrid

That's a negative from me too.

But why? I don't need to read about or view a sport which is obviously cruel, barbaric and should have been consigned to the history books years ago.

From wiki:
Bullfighting guide The Bulletpoint Bullfight warns that bullfighting is "not for the squeamish," advising spectators to "be prepared for blood." The guide details prolonged and profuse bleeding caused by horse-mounted lancers, the charging by the bull of a blindfolded, armored horse who is "sometimes doped up, and unaware of the proximity of the bull", the placing of barbed darts by banderilleros, followed by the matador's fatal sword thrust. The guide stresses that these procedures are a normal part of bullfighting and that death is rarely instantaneous. The guide further warns those attending bullfights to "Be prepared to witness various failed attempts at killing the animal before it lies down."

Jeebus, how anyone can honestly defend this…

Can anyone explain why humans are more important

Because they pay tax?

SOOBalias – Member
are you reading the same links as the rest of us pook?

yes – and the bull was killed for the goring of people in the crowd, not as part of the spectacle.
Like I say, i don't condone bull fighting, but this bull wasn't in a bull fight, nor was it going to be killed.

Almost, but not quite. For example, I know I wouldn't like to see a human be killed by a bull.

I don't think I want to see either fight or die if that's okay! I'm not sure bulls really want to see either situation for that matter!

The rational debate could go right down the spiral until we're talking Descartes' "cogito ergo…" stuff – but let's just agree that we'll never know exactly how thoughtful a bull is. To that extent, we cannot really emphathise with it on a meaningful level. What we can be a wee bit more sure of its that our fellow humans can and will think about things to varying extents.

So, we can empathise more with the humans than we can with the bulls. Still not convinced it's a valid argument for saying their lives are worth less than ours.

But we're still made of the same basic building blocks as other animals and are still possessed of instincts and emotions which run deeper than the conscious mind.

So surely we're not so far removed from the bull after all, and should maybe be viewing both (potential) deaths equally abhorently/apathetically? Or is this a debating point against the idea that we should be appealing more to our animal instincts rather than our rational minds. To be honest, I'm struggling to try to maintain both points of view, but I think I understand what you're getting at, even if I don't subscribe to the same opinion!

Sometimes it takes something quite shocking to remind us that we are not as special as we think we are. Perhaps a life and death spectacle like a bullfight?

I think this is what I was aiming at! If we're not as special as we think we are, our lives aren't necessarily as important as we think they are. Shouldn't we therefore treat other life a bit more akin to the way we treat our own?

This is all a bit heavy for a Thursday afternoon!

DeadlyDarcy – you seem content taking on board only the half of the argument that confirms your own prejudices. Not a very open minded outlook.

misogynistic, alcoholic, boorish tw4t

All true. Hell of a writer though.

Oh I see now, you're surely just trolling aren't you?

Almost, but not quite. For example, I know I wouldn't like to see a human be killed by a bull.

I'd not even like to see a matador killed by a bull, but I'd kinda be thinking…you sort of asked for it mate.

The rational debate could go right down the spiral until we're talking Descartes' "cogito ergo…" stuff – but let's just agree that we'll never know exactly how thoughtful a bull is. To that extent, we cannot really emphathise with it on a meaningful level.

It doesn't need to go down that level at all. Picture yourself for a second, drugged and injured, so that your superior powers of intellectual reasoning have been dulled down to your basic instincts, in a circle of men who are just popping in and out every so often, kicking you in the face, stabbing you, not quite finishing you off. How do you think you'll feel. You'll feel primal instincts…fear, confusion, pain. I'll have a tenner with you that a bull can feel those very same things. Saying "we don't really know how the bull feels" is not any kind of argument for killing it in the manner of a bullfight. It's not a fair point of reasoning.

But we're still made of the same basic building blocks as other animals and are still possessed of instincts and emotions which run deeper than the conscious mind.

Refer to my last paragraph.

Sometimes it takes something quite shocking to remind us that we are not as special as we think we are. Perhaps a life and death spectacle like a bullfight?

Life and death spectacle? You're taking the mick here aren't you? Life for the matador and his coward minions and inevitable death for the bull. Unless, of course, something goes wrong in the stage management of the slaughter. Jesus, I'd rather watch WWF…at least the outcome is kept secret from the audience until the referee's count to three.

DeadlyDarcy – you seem content taking on board only the half of the argument that confirms your own prejudices. Not a very open minded outlook.

No actually, I was once quite blase about the whole subject…having spent most Summers as a child on a beef farm in Ireland…it did give me quite a neutral view on how we treat animals. I'd prefer to think I'm a bit more enlightened as I approach middle age. Am I prejudiced against people who treat animals cruelly for their own enjoyment and then call it "art"? I sure as hell am.

Great writing. And absolutely true. However, if you want it to actually kill a man then you're more twisted than is probably healthy. In the same way that everyone secretly likes F1 for the crashes – but if you're watching it to see people die, you have crossed the line into psychopathy.

To be honest what I want isn't repeatable on here…. and it does go on for quite a while about …ahem ….. ladies bits….however, whatever else it doesn't actually include bull fighting at all. However, I am in the opinion that if one chooses a punch up with a very large beast as a way of proving ones virility it does one no credit to a) have help, and b) avoid the potential negative conclusion, it simply shows one to be a bit of a cock. So I'm in favour of the bull having back-up from its mates too, and a no holds barred approach to it all. i.e .matador can kill bull, bull can kill matador. Proper man stuff…. me, I'm a wimp and I'll be in the stands with a sangria discussing what I really want with the senioritas……..

Could I just add that I was thinking what an inspired and clear thinking gentleman you are……. well right up to the word "However" that was.

Ah, the Boggis, Bunce and Bean lobby I see….

Is it only me that’s thinking WTF ????

Still not convinced it's a valid argument for saying their lives are worth less than ours

No. But in witnessing that split second where a bull takes the upper hand, you just might change your mind.

should maybe be viewing both (potential) deaths equally abhorently

Yup – exactly. But as above, when the tables turn, perhaps the feeling starts to emerge that some animals might be more equal than others (to paraphrase another well known Spanophile).

Lets just say that viewed with the right mix of cynisism and respect it encourages mindfulness and introspection. Not altogether without merit.

cba with the more recent responses.

ta, pook, the link to the bbc site was unclear about the reason the bull was in the bullring.

but let's just agree that we'll never know exactly how thoughtful a bull is. To that extent, we cannot really emphathise with it on a meaningful level.

Personally I don't see why I can't empathise with something even if I don't know exactly how thoughtful it is.

Sometimes it takes something quite shocking to remind us that we are not as special as we think we are. Perhaps a life and death spectacle like a bullfight?

Why do you think you're special? I'd never assume that, and certainly don't need a life and death spectacle to remind me that really I'm just a lump of flesh and bones.

Lets just say that viewed with the right mix of cynisism and respect it encourages mindfulness and introspection. Not altogether without merit.

I just don't see the merit of which you speak. If you need to watch things like that to be mindful and introspective you're already at a level I'd consider sub-human.

. In the same way that everyone secretly likes F1 for the crashes – but if you're watching it to see people die, you have crossed the line into psychopathy.

I like the crashes, yes, because I know the human is relatively safe inside and it's only cash being thrown down the drain. If I thought people or animals would be injured without doubt during the crash I'd not watch it wanting people to crash, I'd watch it for the racing action.

Picture yourself for a second, drugged and injured, so that your superior powers of intellectual reasoning have been dulled down to your basic instincts, in a circle of men who are just popping in and out every so often, kicking you in the face, stabbing you, not quite finishing you off. How do you think you'll feel. You'll feel primal instincts…fear, confusion, pain. I'll have a tenner with you that a bull can feel those very same things. Saying "we don't really know how the bull feels" is not any kind of argument for killing it in the manner of a bullfight. It's not a fair point of reasoning.

If we lived in a World with zero chance of man inflicting that sort of inhumanity upon fellow man then it would indeed be super-****'d-up. We don't. People are cruel. Maybe it's so shocking that it makes a few people in the audience think about how to live their lives better – or about the things that they value, or about how lucky they are just to be alive.

I've never said it's 'right'. It happens. There are two sides to the argument.

you're already at a level I'd consider sub-human

That's OK though – because you love all the wonders of creation as much as you love yourself, right?

Edit: CK – just so we're clear, 'creation' is only a figure of speech.

That's OK though – because you love all the wonders of creation as much as you love yourself, right?

I don't consider them creation, but I try my best to be fair and caring for them, yes. And yes, it does sadden me to see insects hit my windscreen.

No. But in witnessing that split second where a bull takes the upper hand, you just might change your mind.

I hope not, but never having experienced/witnessed it I cannot be sure I wouldn't.

Yup – exactly. But as above, when the tables turn, perhaps the feeling starts to emerge that some animals might be more equal than others (to paraphrase another well known Spanophile).

I can well believe this. It's a shame that such situations arise at all, particularly when they are deliberately manufactured.

Lets just say that viewed with the right mix of cynisism and respect it encourages mindfulness and introspection. Not altogether without merit.

I try to take the view that most of these kind of events have merit of one form or another, be it from a sociological, political or even ethical/moral point of view. Unfortunately when weighed up against the pain, distress, confusion etc… that I imagine the animals go through, not to mention the degradation of the humans involved, the cost/benefit analysis is vastly overweighted on the cost side of things, the benefits being minimal.

coffeeking – Member

Yeah – secrety cheer for the bull… up until the point that a human gets tossed like a salad or gored in the nethers. There'd need to be something wrong with you to enjoy that.

Not at all, I'd hope anyone enjoying watching an animal getting killed for fun would accept that I can enjoy watching the bull get its own back.

Besides, bulls have gored men, whether during a bullfight or not, for centuries.

Ah, the Boggis, Bunce and Bean lobby I see….

Is it only me that’s thinking WTF ????

You dont know your Roald Dahl then, Berm bandit (fantastic Mr Fox) 😆

If you're speaking from an unexperienced and uneducated (about the subject in hand) point of view your opinion is being proclaimed from a point of ignorance and no doubt based on sentimentality. I would suggest before commenting on Bull Fighting you learn a little about it.

Read: Death in the afternoon by Ernest Hemmingway
Visit: Las Ventas in Madrid

then and only then should you put forward a valid argument. Be it for or against.

in the meantime keep buying meat from a supermarket.

+1

I was talking to a Spaniard about the English revulsion to bull fighting. His answer was that they will stop killing their bulls when we stop murdering our children.

I went to a runnng of bulls in a small town in southern France. It struck me as a much healthier (for society if not the bulls) way of young men proving their virilty and prowess than the methods employed by the average Englishman on a night out.

As far as I'm concerened this a cultural thing that has got nothing to do with us and we'd be respectful to keep our noses out.

His answer was that they will stop killing their bulls when we stop murdering our children.

presumably at that point you told him he was an uneducated ****t?

why would i have done that ?

Because it would be factually correct?

because he made a very dumb statement, attempting to link the organised and keenly observed taunting, then slaughter of an animal, with criminal and rare deviant behavior in the UK. with the added suggestion that Spanish kids never get murdered? or was he suggesting that they're actually comparable – bull fighting = child murder? either way he's a retard

Because it would be factually correct?

he had a degree so actually it wouldn't have been

The point he was alluding to was that Spanish culture is far more centred on caring for and respecting children than English culture. A point which after travelling with my children in Spain, I wholeheartedly agree with. His point being that we have our own issues to deal with before sorting theirs out.

I went running with the bulls in a fiesta last weekend – great fun and just a little scary!

A liquid breakfast helped soothe the nerves.

Erm, in the context of his knowledge of British cultural practices, he would be uneducated.

You see, we don't actually murder our children as part of a national sport.

As far as I'm concerened this a cultural thing that has got nothing to do with us and we'd be respectful to keep our noses out.

So we should keep our noses out of anything that we find unpleasant about other people's cultures? Such as the treatment of women in places like Iran, Saudi and Afghanistan etc? Should we bollocks. Every person has the right to speak out against something they find abhorrent.

I love Spain, the people and most aspects of it's culture. However, I find bullfighting repugnant and morally bankrupt. Time it was abolished.

Edit – actually I just thought better of that comment. 'Scuse me.

I think this is one of those areas where people have very clearly defined views and one camp is not goingto convince the other to change their mind. I respect people who disagree with the sport, yes, I see it as a sport and not an art. It is often an easy way for the less educated to make money (Jesulin), pretty much like footballers. There is something quite powerful when the bull is killed first time, something quite horrible when it takes ages. There is something quite frghtening seeing a fighting bull up close and equally exciting. Whether I agree or disagree with bullfighting, I have a certain respect for the toreros, and I respect the right for the tradition.

Does the bull suffer during the corrida, well ultimately, yes? Do you suffer when you cut yourself while riding and full of adrenaline? Do bulls have adrenaline??

I went running with the bulls in a fiesta last weekend – great fun and just a little scary!

A liquid breakfast helped soothe the nerves.

A combination of two of the worst aspects of Spanish and British culture there for you. Weren't you the brave guy 🙂

His point being that we have our own issues to deal with before sorting theirs out.

What a crap justification for barbarity in this day and age. I too recommend you tell him he's an uneducated tw@ the next time you see him.

It is often an easy way for the less educated to make money

Bit like dogfighting in the parks here…

Erm, in the context of his knowledge of British cultural practices, he would be uneducated.

You see, we don't actually murder our children as part of a national sport.

LOL excellent ! ………..10/10 😀

What a crap justification for barbarity in this day and age. I too recommend you tell him he's an uneducated tw@ the next time you see him.

Because calling someone an uneducated tw@ to their face would be a perfectlty civilised thing to do in this day and age wouldn't it ?

Although in your defence, I somehow doubt that it's something you do on a regular basis.

Because calling someone an uneducated tw@ to their face would be a perfectlty civilised thing to do in this day and age wouldn't it ?

It would be a lot more civilised than what he said to you.

Although in your defence, I somehow doubt that it's something you do on a regular basis.

🙂 @ the personal stuff again. 🙄

I dunno, was he a big fella?

Legally make money then! 😀

Bit like dogfighting in the parks here…

I imagine not, there are vets on hand, the bulls which don't want to fight are led out and not burnt with cigarettes to make them fight, the bulls are killed relatively quickly and not, I assume, left to die without feeling or respect.

As I said I respect the fact that you don't like, neither have I said whether I agree or not. But I might spend a bit of time this summer with a photo assignment of the corridas and try to learn a bit more.
😉

I was of course being a tad facetious there don 😉

the stadium in madrid is bloody impressive though

Because calling someone an uneducated tw@ to their face would be a perfectlty civilised thing to do in this day and age wouldn't it ?

I would not have any problem whatsoever in calling someone who accused the English of murdering their children something a lot less civilised than "you uneducated ****t"

I take it you would trailmonkey ?

I take it you would trailmonkey ?

well i didn't, so no.

i agreed with the point he was making. we treat our kids poorly in comparison to them. we should put our own house in order before dictating what is moral/immoral to the spanish.

not a tw@

I was of course being a tad facetious there don

😆 tired dude. 😆