Hello. I'm new here. 😀

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11022260

Anybody else secretly cheer for the bull?

Ahem…

And I agree with FrelfinSafety…the bull must have been terrified. What a way to spend your last few hours as such a magnificent animal.

😳

Hello Mowgli! 😀

In fairness, the 'Karma' thread title doesn't give any clue as to it's content.

I feel sorry for the poor terrified animal tbh. About time Spain banned this barbaric practice, tradition or not.

Mind you, it's about time we properly banned fox hunting too really.

(Sits back with cup of tea and plate of biscuits. Waits…)

EDIT: Actually, sorry, I should have said hello and welcome. It's one of the things you have to get used to here. Before you post up a link, you need to carefully check someone else hasn't. Or you can just have a life and do it anyway

Normally, the thread that was posted first runs…unless it was by a forum heavyweight (you'll get to know those too) in which case that inevitably takes precedence.

Cock fighting, badger baiting, burning witches and all sorts of other horrid things were 'tradition' here but we've managed, if not to eradicate them, then at least push them to the very edges of society.

Will be a while before the EU gets round to it unfortunately.

EDIT: yessir. verygoodsir. 🙂

I said "go the bull" out loud.

Having seen the clip on Sky, seems to me that the bull knew exactly where to jump to get over the barrier & surrounding wall.

Sooner it is banned, the better, although setting a bull loose among a stadium of 5,000 spanish on a weekly basis could be a half decent TV spectator sport 😮

i defend spains right to bullfighting…… but im all for the bull scoring a few points on its way out.

i have equal disregard for human and animal life.

😯

Yeah – secrety cheer for the bull… up until the point that a human gets tossed like a salad or gored in the nethers. There'd need to be something wrong with you to enjoy that.

IMO if a bull does something amazing like that it should be spared and allowed to see out it's days on prime pasture surrounded by all the heifers it wants.

Having said that – it's a bloody bull. Anthropomorphising it is not going to make it into some kind of hero – or make it think any differently. Humans are cruel bas**rds sometimes – and life is sometimes harsh – that is the lesson of bullfighting. Sometimes it's useful (not necessarily fun, or comfortable) to be reminded of that.

Yeah – secrety cheer for the bull… up until the point that a human gets tossed like a salad or gored in the nethers. There'd need to be something wrong with you to enjoy that.

Not at all, I'd hope anyone enjoying watching an animal getting killed for fun would accept that I can enjoy watching the bull get its own back.

Anyone watching an animal get killed for fun, should equally enjoy watching a human get killed for fun. Can't really see why one is worse than t'other myself.

There'd need to be something wrong with you to enjoy that.

What about watching an animal tormented to within an inch of its life before being speared to death by some cock dressed as a ballet dancer? Each and every spectator that got gored by the bull fully deserved it*

apart from maybe any youngsters that were dragged there my Mama and/or Papa

That's a load of bull (pun absolutely acknowledged) coffeeking.

You been to a bullfight?

Sad allround. I'd neither cheer the bull etc.

You been to a bullfight?

I hope you're not requiring attendance at some event for the right to comment on the barbarism of it?

That's a load of bull (pun absolutely acknowledged) coffeeking.

You been to a bullfight?

No, I've seen footage of several. Care to tell me where I'm going wrong with my assessment?

Oh, here we go…

Surely you owe it to your species to put human life above much else?

I agree that as 'entertainment' it is a barbaric spectacle – but as a reminder that we're all animals and that nature is raw in tooth and claw, it's certainly thought-provoking.

The bull was bred and reared for the purpose – in better than average conditions – by humans who treated it with a respect bordering on love. Do you know what happens to the vast majority of male calves?

I think if you eat meat at all, you should be reminded sometimes of the barbaric nature of the whole process.

No, I've seen footage of several. Care to tell me where I'm going wrong with my assessment?

In the fact that if you keep rooting for the bull once it's gored a human and has him unconscious and bleeding on the sand… then there is something seriously wrong with your sense of human compassion.

The emotional u-turn you perform at such a moment cannot be got across via youtube clips etc.

I preferred to reserve my own opinion until I had been to a bullfight. It really is special. A man standing a few centimetres away from a killer bull, see the recent news there have been a few revenge of the bull attacks. The atmosphere is incredible and the bull receives a huge amount of respect, people who haven't ever been will tell me this is bullcrap!
When a bull is killed cleanly, ie. first attempt is spectacular. I've also seen some messy, slow kills which are not pleasant, but hey, animals die and are killed.
At least the Spanish accept that the bullfight is a sport/art rather than the w*nkers in the UK who try to say that the fox hunt is a legitimate form of pest control. Really? Why not shoot the feckers then?
Some of the antics with bulls are archaic, but in general the fighting bulls are respected and a 500kg bull against a 80kg is quite something. Would you volunteer to be in the same field as one of these bulls, let alone having in trying to charge you down?
Sorry, but it's easy to critisize when you don't understand.

I too have a wry smile when the bull gets one back!

The bull was bred and reared for the purpose – in better than average conditions – by humans who treated it with a respect bordering on love. Do you know what happens to the vast majority of male calves?

Well bully for him. The lucky bastard.
🙄

preferred to reserve my own opinion until I had been to a bullfight

True dat.

Surely you owe it to your species to put human life above much else?

I don't owe my species anything.

I agree that as 'entertainment' it is a barbaric spectacle – but as a reminder that we're all animals and that nature is raw in tooth and claw, it's certainly thought-provoking.

So?

The bull was bred and reared for the purpose – in better than average conditions – by humans who treated it with a respect bordering on love. Do you know what happens to the vast majority of male calves?

How it was treated is barely relevant, if at all. Making the first part of its life happy and pleasant does not excuse the barbaric, terrifying, miserable end.

I think if you eat meat at all, you should be reminded sometimes of the barbaric nature of the whole process.

I eat meat that has been reared kindly, treated well and killed humanely. I don't enjoy the fact that it died for me to eat, I accept it and ensure I buy responsibly reared/killed meat. I am more than aware of the barbaric nature of the whole process, but I do not take great pleasure in it. Anyone who gathers around to enjoy watching someone kill something is sick in the head, IMO.

Sorry, but it's easy to critisize when you don't understand.

I understand fully.

I tend to agree with don simon despite really enjoying the bull jump the railings. Where do you stop? Should we ban rugby for the dirty eye gougers?

findo_gask – Member
Surely you owe it to your species to put human life above much else?

why?

Sorry, but it's easy to critisize when you don't understand.

Can you just elucidate what I need to "understand" about it don? I "understand" that it's cruel and barbaric.

In fairness fella…

art

..my big fat hairy arse!

Surely you owe it to your species to put human life above much else?

Never really understood this logic. My emotional mind says, "yes" I'm biased towards my species. Yet, all rationality tells me there's no real reason to put human life above all else.

Can anyone explain why humans are more important, ideally without referring to religious texts?

I tend to agree with don simon despite really enjoying the bull jump the railings. Where do you stop? Should we ban rugby for the dirty eye gougers?

Pointless analogy, Rugby is a sport where all involved are participating out of choice. And you should ban the eye gougers.

From the website of a well known charity…

From the moment the bull enters the ring, he is destined to die. His death will be slow and painful, and the last moments of his life will be full of terror and confusion as he hears the sounds of a jeering crowd. For the bull, bullfighting is no “competition”. It is simply slaughter for human entertainment.

Sorry, but it's easy to critisize when you don't understand.

People taking enjoyment from the torture and slow death of a terrified animal.

There's nothing else to understand, sorry.

This wasn't a bull fight. The animal lived, and it wasn't involved in any matador style stuff in the first place.

Not advocating bull fighting, but just so you lot have got the facts, this was more akin to the pamplona bull run than a traditional fight.

Go bull.

are you reading the same links as the rest of us pook?

Peyote: perhaps beacuse it's the ability to rationalise on that level that makes us unique.

You might subscribe to the "virus with shoes" view of humanity but hey – you're part of the gang!

Bullfighting is amoral at best but cheapening human life is downright immoral. This response doesn't have to be logical… if nothing else it's purely evolutionary.

A bull is a glorious and noble thing – but it doesn't give a **** about you, me, or even another bull.

deadlydarcy – not sure of your point? Certain animal welfare charities* are responsible for some of the most emotionally backward, sentimental, unfounded claptrap you will ever hear. *Not all of them, not all the time.

A bull is a glorious and noble thing – but it doesn't give a **** about you, me, or even another bull.

And that gives us the right to treat it so badly for our own enjoyment…how?

I'm not cheapening the lives of the humans who got gored. They did that themselves when they (no doubt) paid to see a "glorious and noble" sentient being being treated with such callous barbarity.

In the fact that if you keep rooting for the bull once it's gored a human and has him unconscious and bleeding on the sand… then there is something seriously wrong with your sense of human compassion.

But surely thats the point? Its dangerous and the heroic chappy on the ground is proving his manliness by laughing in the face of danger. I think its incumbent on all bull fighting officiandos to rigourously defend the bulls right to stick one up the odd matadors arris so as to preserve this age old and honoured art form in the correct social context. Or to put it another way hurrah for the bull

Really? Why not shoot the feckers then?

Quick thoughts that have always bothered me in the pro-fox hunting pest control argument….
1) How do foxes manage to break into factory farms… I'm out there with Darwin, but have they managed to evolve into picking locks now?? The little perishers eh??

2) When I go out riding the biggest single pest I see are rabbits, now I might be wrong, but don't foxes predate on rabbits? If so surely it would make more farming sense to protect or in fact encourage the proliferation of the fox?

What Pook said, it wasnt a bullfight.

It was a concurso recortadores:bull dodging. They dont usually kill the bull in this type of event, more often than not the bulls are bigger stars than the muppet avoiding them.
I'm not advocating anything that happens in a bullring, but besides corridas there are so many variants where the animal isnt physically harmed. Down here they even have a kids version called toro piscine, which is generally played by drunk teenagers.

Quick thoughts that have always bothered me in the pro-fox hunting pest control argument….

Ah, the Boggis, Bunce and Bean lobby I see….

A bull is a glorious and noble thing – but it doesn't give a **** about you, me, or even another bull.

really, how did you come to that conclusion?
your statement confuses me lots, seems you think its glorious and noble and thats your view, but in assuming the views of the bull, you really are overplaying your part in the whole thing.

I think its incumbent on all bull fighting officiandos to rigourously defend the bulls right to stick one up the odd matadors arris

Great writing. And absolutely true. However, if you want it to actually kill a man then you're more twisted than is probably healthy. In the same way that everyone secretly likes F1 for the crashes – but if you're watching it to see people die, you have crossed the line into psychopathy.

And that gives us the right to treat it so badly for our own enjoyment

"right" is not part of my argument. And I don't really even know if a bullfight can even be 'enjoyed' as such. At best, perhaps it could be characterised as 'thought provoking'.

in assuming the views of the bull, you really are overplaying your part in the whole thing

Absolutely true. I have strayed dangerously close there to the sort of hollow rhetoric employed by some misguided animal rights campaigners. My apologies.

Peyote: perhaps beacuse it's the ability to rationalise on that level that makes us unique.

You might subscribe to the "virus with shoes" view of humanity but hey – you're part of the gang!

Can we be certain that we're the only species that can rationalise? It's putting a lot of faith in our current knowledge of "life" if we are. I'm not comfortable with assuming this anyway. I like the "virus with shoes" view of humanity!

Bullfighting is amoral at best but cheapening human life is downright immoral. This response doesn't have to be logical… if nothing else it's purely evolutionary.

Doesn't this go against what you say earlier about us being able to rationalise? Surely, if we're so different from other life, we should be utilising rationality and logic wherever possible. Not just conforming to the baser instincts of emotion and speciesim (is that a word?!)?

Evolutionary speaking we've long since departed from this route. We've created our own version of evolution so again, logic and rationality should be teaching us that actually, treating all life as equal, is to ur advantage?

A bull is a glorious and noble thing – but it doesn't give a **** about you, me, or even another bull.

The same argument can be applied to humans…

If you're speaking from an unexperienced and uneducated (about the subject in hand) point of view your opinion is being proclaimed from a point of ignorance and no doubt based on sentimentality. I would suggest before commenting on Bull Fighting you learn a little about it.

Read: Death in the afternoon by Ernest Hemmingway
Visit: Las Ventas in Madrid

then and only then should you put forward a valid argument. Be it for or against.

in the meantime keep buying meat from a supermarket.