the students lost all credibility

It is a democracy let them legally have docile protests that MP’s will ignore – Iraq war for example. Perhaps if govts listened to mass peacful protest there would be no need to for violent protest?

EDIT: yes was intersting coppers show you could see the coppers getting increasingly annoyed as the day progressed then loosing it with a number of people who were subsequently not charged. Not a dig at coppers per se just a comment on human nature I doubt many of us would put with that for hours without reacting

Regardless, the students lost all credibility the moment they started smashing up property a couple of weeks back in London.

not really.. peaceful protest is a farce.. they may have lost all credibility with a certain sector of the public.. but it is an historic fact that violent protest achieves more in this country than peaceful demonstration..

Whilst I can’t condone police violence, these are indeed exciting times. After decades of complete political apathy from Britain’s youth and students, I am watching their radicalisation and politicisation before my very eyes.

I simply couldn’t believe that the police had used kettling against school children the other day. I know how much anger and frustration which to (in effect) be imprisoned for many hours despite having done absolutely nothing illegal, causes. I also know how it exposes the limitations on our democracy, and how it leaves the victim feeling powerless.

Britain’s school children and students are experiencing a very steep learning curve. What they experiencing and learning now will to an extent, stay with them for the rest of their lives.

They will very quickly move beyond the narrow issue of student fees, as they start linking their own predicament with the wider struggle against Tory ideologically motivated spending cuts. And as they start to challenge one set of “truths”, it will automatically lead them to challenge another set.

A significant proportion will join political parties and become politically active as a direct result of their initial involvement in the student fees protests. They will carry this on into adulthood.

Contrast this, with the decades of slick marketing in which Britain’s youth meekly and unquestioningly bought the empty dream that they could all personally achieve fame and fortune.

Thank you Tory/LibDem government……..you are sowing seeds. And you will reap what you sow. I really couldn’t have asked for more.

From what i’ve seen police tactics are mostly based around the fact that the average copper is unfit, overweight and cant handle overly complex organisation. Hence the ‘kettling’ fad. I think protestors are getting wise to it though; realising that the police are not their to ‘supervise’ but to harass and/or stop protest. Just keep moving faster than pc plod.

+1 ernie_lynch

Well said that man!

And for his next trick, ernie parts the Red Sea…

with a number of people who were subsequently not charged

You appear to be of the opinion that not charging someone is evidence that the arrest was not right or proper – if they’re arrested to prevent a breach of the peace, which is an established ancient common law right of arrest, then its perfectly reasonable to release them when they are no longer a threat to the peace, ie. after the protest.

From what i’ve seen police tactics are mostly based around the fact that the average copper is unfit, overweight and cant handle overly complex organisation

Have a close look at the similarities between Police tactics and Roman infantry tactics – I presume they were also based around the average Centurion being unfit, overweight and unable to handle organisation? or maybe they’re just tried, tested, proven techniques that work?

I’ve been to a number of demos where the police have deliberately antagonised an otherwise peaceful crowd, in order to stir things up. I’ve seen huge thugs in police uniform batter unarmed people just exercising their democratic rights, and not being aggressive or violent in any way. TBH, the majority of law breaking has been done by Her Maj’s Finest.

Before you judge, I suggest you go along to some demos, have a look for yourself, see what the police really get up to. It’ll open your eyes…

what he said. I got trampled by a police horse outside downing street in 1997.

I got trampled by a police horse outside downing street in 1997.

Just walking innocently down the street were you?

What’s the big deal footbal fans have been treated like this for years just for following their team.

Have a close look at the similarities between Police tactics and Roman infantry tactics – I presume they were also based around the average Centurion being unfit, overweight and unable to handle organisation?

to a certain extent yes… The Roman infantry will have often been close to physical exhaustion after marching to the battlegrounds.. unlike the fat bent coppers who are getting driven round the corner in a van to escort a bunch of stroppy teenagers..

just for following their team.

Yeah right!! 🙄

my brother and his mate got beaten up by a copper once when they were about 14, they had been out on the cider and one of them was having a piss against a set of swings

2 coppers saw them and one just layed into my brothers mate, resulting in a several stitches and a split scrotum

thing is they were both police cadets at the time, and the copper had a history (we later learnt) of disciplinarys was looking set to be charged and fired, then what do you know statements went missing and errors were found in the doctors notes making them inadmissable and the other copper(who my brother actually new and had considered a decent chap) lied to protect his mate

my brother doesnt like police now

Yeah right!!

Robdob, are you suggesting that football fans have not been coralled and controlled by ‘riot police’ and not allowed to go wherever they want because a minority of them are troublemakers, just looking for a fight?

So, like it was said earlier, the many have to suffer because, as a group, they have proven that they cannot be trusted to act within the law…

Have a close look at the similarities between Police tactics and Roman infantry tactics

Bleedin Romans 😐

ROMANI ITE DOMUM

Ernie – I kind of agree with your enthusiasm for the politicalisation of the young-uns (maybe not the level of radicalisation that you applaud obviously). But dont you feel just a little bit patronised by their naivity and blatant lack of understanding of any of the detail of the issues they profess to be revolting about?

A good rantathon is one thing, but where’s the intellectual case for change? Its not clear from any of the interviewees on the TV. All thats apparent is a want, want, want attitude fueled by some tubthumping, dog-whistling, airy concepts, with no real comprehension of how to deliver…

They will very quickly move beyond the narrow issue of student fees, as they start linking their own predicament with the wider struggle against Tory ideologically motivated spending cuts

Yes, just like these Newcastle Uni Students, who clearly feel that the plight of their predicament is comparable to the suffering of millions in Africa!

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=dRtEbVJZod8[/video]

Just think about the level of arrogance, of self importance, of sheer entitlement that would allow you to think that not getting free tuition is in any way equivalent to the plight of starving millions!

But dont you feel just a little bit patronised

Not quite as patronised as what you’ve just written though.

I will of course, let ernie speak for himself. He’s more than capable.

dd – so you think that any of the students have made a substantive case for a fundable alternative policy on anything?

Or do you think that theyre just out for a few beers, bit of an “I woz there” swagger, and some Dave Spart bonus points before back to their digs and a glass of Chablis?

EDIT: anyway, keep up the faux disgust for me, Ive got to log off for a bit…

Yes Zulu and Stoner, the kids are very naive. They haven’t been politicised yet, these are early days and they have much to learn. Right now, they are just very angry.

Most young people initially get involved in politics (I’m talking about left-wing politics, I know little about what motivates right-wingers) for purely emotional reasons. The pragmatic idealogical understanding comes later.

I distinctly remember when I was just a naive angry kid who wanted to take on the system. Luckily I received excellent schooling which sorted me out.

Ive got to log off for a bit…

Remember to wipe.

Remember to wipe.

😆

In my day when a Polis smacked you in the face,you stayed smacked.And you wouldn’t tell your Mum,oh no,then you would another hiding for getting in trouble in the first place.Of course things were different then,you could go out and leave your front door open etc…
That guy just has a look of “I can’t believe you just did that” then carries on shoving/protesting etc.It is good to see a generation is starting to get off their backsides.Pity a lot of them are playing radical on Mummy and Daddy’s credit card.That muppet from Newcastle being a prime example.

ernie – They will very quickly move beyond the narrow issue of student fees, as they start linking their own predicament with the wider struggle against Tory ideologically motivated spending cuts. And as they start to challenge one set of “truths”, it will automatically lead them to challenge another set.

Already happening mate:

Tax Avoidance Protest

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0Z3kBqurIY&feature=player_embedded[/video]

As for the people saying the students are naive, I think anyone who doesn’t question why these cuts (in the wider sphere) that will make people homeless and drastically reduce sport in schools (I could go on) have to be made is the naive one.

Yes Zulu and Stoner, the kids are very naive. They haven’t been politicised yet, these are early days and they have much to learn. Right now, they are just very angry.

Angry teenagers, students protesting, was it not ever thus? A few years ago it was nuclear weapons, more recently it was fur, then animal lib, then globalisation, then self interest

Most young people initially get involved in politics (I’m talking about left-wing politics, I know little about what motivates right-wingers) for purely emotional reasons. The pragmatic idealogical understanding comes later.

Seldom, most of the ones who spent the nineties protesting live export are now the ones buying Fearnley -Whittingstall books and worrying which nursery Tarquin is going to.

I distinctly remember when I was just a naive angry kid who wanted to take on the system. Luckily I received excellent schooling which sorted me out.

Some of us embraced the system, it was far more contrary and rebellious to be a huntin’ fishin’ shootin’ t mountainbikin’ animal researchin’ type than than we could ever dream of being by wearing black and hanging round with the local Goths… 😆

I dont wipe. A swans neck passes beneath me when I need.

Just think about the level of arrogance, of self importance, of sheer entitlement that would allow you to think that not getting free tuition is in any way equivalent to the plight of starving millions!

not really in context is it. reminds me of getting told off when at primary school for not eating all my dinner as there are kids starving in africa – well send them it!

Since 1998 at least there have been marches agains tuition fees, this is teh FIRST to get any exposure, so yeah a bit of criminal damage goes a long way.

I support them, the only other option is moving to wales 3 years before the kids go to uni so you get it free.

Its about time the government had some proper sh1t for acting like a load of lying b*****ds, no one else stands up for anything? Remember the fuel protests when the price went over £1/litre, well that came to nothing did it and as such another one they win.

Keep causing chaos every week students, next try all the local govt offices, redecorate them!

Pretty much nail on the head there Ernie. Its healthy to see.

Being bought up in the North West under Thatcher: I was angry as **** at the injustice I saw going on around me. Most of us were. I think thats why the tories then spent so long out of power. Because a generation grew up hating the ****s!!! And with very good eason. Looks like we’re about to start again with the same cycle

@ Zulu Eleven

Self interest? You realise most of the students protesting won’t be affected by fees and funding changes?

If I was easily offended I think those Northumberland students might have offended me with a entirely inappropriate choice of music which is not only in bad taste but totally out of context.

Moronic **** who are full of a misplaced sense of self importance. 👿

ernie_lynch – Member
Whilst I can’t condone police violence, these are indeed exciting times. After decades of complete political apathy from Britain’s youth and students, I am watching their radicalisation and politicisation before my very eyes.

so anything less than mass protest and street violence is apathy, I’m sure all the very politically active students of the last decades with thank you for your recognition of their efforts

I simply couldn’t believe that the police had used kettling against school children the other day.

why were children at the protest? do you know where your kids are?

I know how much anger and frustration which to (in effect) be imprisoned for many hours despite having done absolutely nothing illegal, causes.

just becuase you couldn’t go to starbucks to discuss how you “fought the state” over your fairtrade java

I also know how it exposes the limitations on our democracy, and how it leaves the victim feeling powerless.

what’s the problem? lots more people disagree with you and demonstrate this at the ballot box rather than running around city centres . As you IIRC declare yourself not to be a Labour party supporter how exactly do you get your representation in the current democratic structures used in this country?

Britain’s school children and students are experiencing a very steep learning curve. What they experiencing and learning now will to an extent, stay with them for the rest of their lives.

I hope so, a quick analysis of the “fees” issues leads me to believe that maths teaching is at a historically low level and most can’t ,won’t or CBA to work out that they will pay less than in the current system

They will very quickly move beyond the narrow issue of student fees, as they start linking their own predicament with the wider struggle against Tory ideologically motivated spending cuts. And as they start to challenge one set of “truths”, it will automatically lead them to challenge another set.

yes a lot of them will realise that getting a caution or worse for a public order offence will adversly affect their ability to get a job that requires any sort of CRB check

A significant proportion will join political parties and become politically active as a direct result of their initial involvement in the student fees protests. They will carry this on into adulthood.

brilliant, hopefully we will have another wave of far left stdents who grow up into centre right politicians

Contrast this, with the decades of slick marketing in which Britain’s youth meekly and unquestioningly bought the empty dream that they could all personally achieve fame and fortune.

you can’t blame Simon Cowell for everything 😉

Thank you Tory/LibDem government……..you are sowing seeds. And you will reap what you sow. I really couldn’t have asked for more.

I think Labour sowed the seeds,

‘Dear chief secretary, I’m afraid to tell you there’s no money left,’

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/may/17/liam-byrne-note-successor

the current government is managing the consequences

Lifer – interesting how those students, apart from the link with tax avoidance, were also able to feel a link between cuts in education spending and cuts in police spending.

Which is a pretty important point imo. And one which shows that the Bullingdon Boys really haven’t thought through the consequences of their mindless vandalism of the public sector. Thatcher at least had the common sense to give police officers massive pay rises before embarking on her destruction of British manufacturing industries …. she knew damn well that she would have to rely on the police to do her bidding. And didn’t they do well during the miners strike eh ?

Yeah, an excellent video and pretty inspiring imo. Although the most depressing aspect is that, because of the dire state of the British left and the fact that British trade unions are effectively buggered, all that youthful anger has no effective vehicle to be channelled via or to provide coordinated action. Still, they say that crises tend to throw up leaders, so let’s hope that happens and the left stops pissing in the wilderness and the trade union movement gets off its knees.

and the left stops pissing in the wilderness

I thought they lived on chat forums 😉

say that crises tend to throw up leaders,

you are missing your calling, man the barracades!

big_n_daft……point by point rebuttals are very messy…….I really can’t be bothered reading all that.

Shall I just take it that you don’t agree with me ?

But hey………..thanks for taking the time btw *thumbs up*

big_n_daft

I hope so, a quick analysis of the “fees” issues leads me to believe that maths teaching is at a historically low level and most can’t ,won’t or CBA to work out that they will pay less than in the current system

How about an in depth analysis?

11.Knowing what it knows about the cuts that are to come, the Committee suggests that £6,000 in fees will be the amount that will allow universities to maintain funding levels equivalent to today’s (actually £6,000 would be less than today’s level of funding according to the Committee, but in an alarming return to the language of the 1990s it speaks of “efficiency” reductions to justify a figure of £6,000. These “efficiencies” are likely in reality to mean worse student:staff ratios – England already has one of the worst in the OECD area – or fewer books in the library). Many universities may feel that they will be unable to charge fees even at that level, and many will charge less. They may find ways of maintaining quality while being more “efficient” but in that case similar “efficiencies” should be required of others. Most likely, their quality will suffer. They may be able to attract students because of their price. As likely is that they will enter a spiral of decline. We cannot know, nor does anybody else. No market research underpins the report, and so a substantial risk is being taken.

Full review

And more

Much of the initial response to the Browne Report seems to have missed the point. Its proposals have been discussed almost entirely in terms of ‘a rise in fees’. Analysis has largely concentrated on the amount graduates might pay and on which social groups may gain or lose by comparison with the present system. In other words, the discussion has focused narrowly on the potential financial implications for the individual student, and here it should be recognised that some of the details of Browne’s proposed system of graduate contributions to the cost of fees are, if his premises are granted, an improvement on the present patchwork arrangements.

But the report proposes a far, far more fundamental change to the way universities are financed than is suggested by this concentration on income thresholds and repayment rates. Essentially, Browne is contending that we should no longer think of higher education as the provision of a public good, articulated through educational judgment and largely financed by public funds (in recent years supplemented by a relatively small fee element). Instead, we should think of it as a lightly regulated market in which consumer demand, in the form of student choice, is sovereign in determining what is offered by service providers (i.e. universities). The single most radical recommendation in the report, by quite a long way, is the almost complete withdrawal of the present annual block grant that government makes to universities to underwrite their teaching, currently around £3.9 billion. This is more than simply a ‘cut’, even a draconian one: it signals a redefinition of higher education and the retreat of the state from financial responsibility for it.

My emphasis just for you Big_n_daft

ernie_lynch – surely you are Dave Spart ?
and I claim my £5 🙂

and anyway too many students these days – back in my day only 2% of the year group went to Huniversity and now I believe it’s something like 97%….etc etc…..

The universities fund themselves. They don’t need extra money. Like I said, my uni generates £7.50 for every £1 the government puts in. The rise in fees just isn’t necessary and builds massive debts (with interest payable to the government…) and will stop kids from low income families (the people who wouldn’t vote Tory…) going.

I’d agree with the sentiment that students haven’t been as motivated as this for years- I think the last time I felt the need to protest was nearly 8 years ago for the Iraq war. I think that was the last time anyone I know went to a protest. The Labour government, on the whole, provided little to protest against. There were some questionable things but most of it was OK. I’d not say I was a labourite but they did good.

Now however sweeping changes that claim to be about “spending cuts” but are really unjustifiable Tory policy that wouldn’t even go near parliament under normal circumstances. And all of a sudden people feel the need to protest because what is happening is wrong.

Andy- I’ve been working in a school recently and only 3 out of 25 students want to go. However, that’s a specialist subject. In other classes that’s much lower.

Education is not a commercial industry. It is a necessity for both the country and for young people.

Also, a lot of you have a very unpleasant stereotype of students. This image of a young person drinking posh coffee, loafing around and aiming to have a kid called “Tarquin” is straight up wrong. The majority are hard working, have chosen their subject because it will be useful (while some things like Art History may not seem useful, a society with culture is a good thing to live in- so long’s it remains a minority subject) and want to make themselves more employable in a specialist field, or even just be smarter. This is NOT a bad thing.

Admittedly many are in there to kill a few years. Obviously this is the sort of thing that needs to stop- it’s simple enough to just increase the grades needed to get in and sort this chaff from the wheat. Having to work harder to get into uni will stop this, NOT higher fees.

Obviously this is the sort of thing that needs to stop- it’s simple enough to just increase the grades needed to get in and sort this chaff from the wheat. Having to work harder to get into uni will stop this, NOT higher fees

Won’t this just increase the inequality ? Surely it’s harder to obtain good grades at state schools than fee paying schools ?