That what I've got, you going for pellet or log?
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Biomass/Solar eco experts, advice sought. Stoner +?
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Posted 7 months ago #
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I was shown a double pellet boiler windhager set up this weekend at a mates.
Its in a block of 6x flats with a 1500L thermal store. Very nicely installed too - wouldnt believe how packed into such a small space it is. Originally they were planning 2x different fuel boilers - one pellet, one gas. Not sure why they went with 2x pellet in the end. with the 1500L buffer I reckon a single 28kW boiler would have coped instead of 2x28=56kW!
Might have a pic on my phone which Ill put up in a bit.
Posted 7 months ago # -
We've already done the energy payback time for PV panels and solar hot water heaters on STW, SD253. The payback is a year to three years for PV in Europe depending on latitude and panel type, not the 20 years you claim. The payback on thermal solar is even faster.
I'm currently getting 255kWh/year per Solar World panel. In 20 years they'll produce over 4.7 megawatt hours each assuming a pessimistic performance deterioration. Do you really think it takes 4.7 MWh to mine the materials and manufature one little panel you can pick up with ease? I doubt it costs much more energy than digging/firing/transporting the roof tiles it replaces.
An air/air heat pump working at -7°C still beats any form of E7 electrical resistance heater in terms of COP so you are better off using a heat pump even on night tarif. With a low-temperature geothermal heat pump then a COP of 4.5 is currently achievable. Why favour something with a COP of 1?
Posted 7 months ago # -
Pellets hopefully. The windhager seemed the best for a straight replacement for an oil boiler. Alternative was a pallezetti (?) which would need a buffer (and mean we'd have to lose our 2yr old non-vented hot water) whereas the Windhager can cope with the variable demands in the same way as a regular boiler can.
Must get back to them and chivvy!
Posted 7 months ago # -
don simon - Member
Are these electric radiators what I would recognise as the old storage heaters? Charge them up over night and let the heat trickle out during the day, kind of thing?Yes apart from letting the heat out as they are highly insulated of course they must let the heat out but over much longer period of time. Note the insulation varies you have pick how high an insulation you want and they still have the bricks in them.
Posted 7 months ago # -
don simon - Member
Isn't the main problem with the E7/storage heaters the lack of control? You'd need to keep on top of the weather forecast on the previous 24 hours so that you'd know when to charge them and when not to, equally how much to charge them too. While the bills were cheap and the house warm, I often found it too warm and had to open windows, which isn't very efficient.
As stated they are much more controlable nowadays (not my views but of those who have it). Although you have a point about the weather forecast you still have to take into account the excellent insulation which means a latge proportion of the heat could be used the next day.
I often found it too warm and had to open windows, which isn't very efficient.
That view implies that your radiators were very old and not very controlable but despite this you are saying it was cheap to run!!!!!! Also as I stated huge amounts of electricity as lost at night. So much so in fact that they have dug lakes at the bottom and top of mountains in Wales and dug the centre of the mountains out and put turbines in. At night they pump the water from the bottom lake to the top lake and drop it down through the turbines at peak times. Now that shows just how much spare capacity they have at night?Posted 7 months ago # -
Edukator - Member
We've already done the energy payback time for PV panels and solar hot water heaters on STW, SD253. The payback is a year to three years for PV in Europe depending on latitude and panel type, not the 20 years you claim. The payback on thermal solar is even faster.
I claimed nothing of the sort merely giving an example of the failure to take into account investment cost to the environment,I'm currently getting 255kWh/year per Solar World panel. In 20 years they'll produce over 4.7 megawatt hours each assuming a pessimistic performance deterioration. Do you really think it takes 4.7 MWh to mine the materials and manufature one little panel you can pick up with ease?
Again as you are full aware I was giving an example and did not relate directly to solar per se. Why you are lying is beyond me.An air/air heat pump working at -7°C still beats any form of E7 electrical resistance heater in terms of COP so you are better off using a heat pump even on night tarif. With a low-temperature geothermal heat pump then a COP of 4.5 is currently achievable. Why favour something with a COP of 1?
]Yet again I was not talking about a heat pump.......what was the point of saying I was?
Edukator - Member
We've already done the energy payback time for PV panels and solar hot water heaters on STW, SD253. The payback is a year to three years for PV in Europe depending on latitude and panel type, not the 20 years you claim. The payback on thermal solar is even faster.
I claimed nothing of the sort merely giving an example of the failure to take into account investment cost to the environment, Again as you are fully aware I was giving an example and did not relate directly to solar per se. Note if you got pay back in 3 years everyone would have one. Even using a feed in tariff no company I have checked with suggested you would get your money back in 3 never mind 1 year. And that was with a feed in tariff of 40p electricity should not be hard to find at 12p. I hope you understand what I am saying??Posted 7 months ago # -
SD253:
I am against solar because we are in the UK but and they do not offer value for money AND they are no good for the environment. Nobody seems to take in the environmental investment cost. IE something that produces 25 tonnes of carbon to make and saves 1 ton a year and has a life expectancy of 20 years.
Care to apologise for calling me a liar.
Posted 7 months ago # -
Edukator - Member
SD253:I am against solar because we are in the UK but and they do not offer value for money AND they are no good for the environment. Nobody seems to take in the environmental investment cost. IE something that produces 25 tonnes of carbon to make and saves 1 ton a year and has a life expectancy of 20 years.
Care to apologise for calling me a liar.
Let me think about it......... no pr*ck Yet again I was giving an example of the failure to take in the investment cost. Now after considering your belief that you can get back your investment in 1 year that is a belief that you think everyone who is on this site is thick. I DO NOT BELIEVE YOU. AND I HAVE CHECKED WITH FIRMS WHO HAVE SAID THE SAME. YOU ARE TALKING SHITE. As a matter of interest does anyone think they can get there money back in 1 year
The payback is a year to three years for PV in Europe depending on latitude and panel type
in 1 year you can get your money back??? Stop taking drugs there bad for you!! Before you report me I would stress that was joke.....HonestPosted 7 months ago # -
SD-253
He means carbon payback, not cash. Here are further details to back his point and refute your timescales:
http://info.cat.org.uk/questions/pv/what-energy-and-carbon-payback-time-pv-panels-uk
There is spare capacity at night in the grid - largely because we're generating that electricity from burning coal and oil. Ultimately we will run out of them and need other forms of energy, like solar and wind.
Posted 7 months ago # -
not really adding anything more than insults and a short fuse to what was an informative thread there SD253, are you?
Posted 7 months ago # -
You talked about carbon so I talked about carbon, SD-253.
If you wish to talk about financial payback we can. My own PV system is on target to pay for itself in 6.5 years thanks to a generous feed-in tarif when I signed the contract.
My solar thermal will take longer to pay for itself: 11-12 years based on a conservative estimate of gas/electricity saved of 95e a year and a total cost of 1100e. Since the middle of April I've only had to switch the immersion heater on twice (when we had guests). Depending on the weather, the sun provides all of our hot water for 5-6 months, most of it for another three months and still makes some contribution in the coldest, darkest months.
You get about 25% less solar radiation in the southern UK but even with a corresponding increase in financial payback times both PV and solar thermal are viable.
Posted 7 months ago # -
Edukator - MemberYou talked about carbon so I talked about carbon, SD-253.
If you wish to talk about financial payback we can. My own PV system is on target to pay for itself in 6.5 years thanks to a generous feed-in tarif when I signed the contract.
My solar thermal will take longer to pay for itself: 11-12 years based on a conservative estimate of gas/electricity saved of 95e a year and a total cost of 1100e. Since the middle of April I've only had to switch the immersion heater on twice (when we had guests). Depending on the weather, the sun provides all of our hot water for 5-6 months, most of it for another three months and still makes some contribution in the coldest, darkest months.
You get about 25% less solar radiation in the southern UK but even with a corresponding increase in financial payback times both PV and solar thermal are viable.
You said 1 to 3 year not 6. Further more as you are getting 4 times the electtric selling cost ie 40p not 10p. Then 4 x 6 = 24years before payback without the ludicrous feed in tariff. You have now changed the environmetal payback to 24years. Are you on drugs or something ENVIRONMENTAL FEEDBCK 24 YEARS. The fact is you are ripping off other electricity users by significantly increasing there bills
My solar thermal will take longer to pay for itself: 11-12 years based
Is this the 3 year payback???????
Does it make you feel good when you have your friends round for a dinner party to tell them how you are saving the world by significantly increasing the cost of electricity for those who cannot aford to buy this fake environmental goods. I am talking of course about the working class and the retired.
As far aas I am concerened you are a typical greedy grabbing member of the Liberal (so called) middle class who pays lip service to the environment.Posted 7 months ago # -
TooTall - Member
SD-253He means carbon payback, not cash. Here are further details to back his point and refute your timescales:
http://info.cat.org.uk/questions/pv/what-energy-and-carbon-payback-time-pv-panels-uk
There is spare capacity at night in the grid - largely because we're generating that electricity from burning coal and oil. Ultimately we will run out of them and need other forms of energy, like solar and wind.
Yes you are right if you steal of the poor you can get a quick feedback. You do know that last year (january) the variation in electricity production for windpower was 1 mega watt to 124 megawatt. Therefore at all times a gas powered station is running in the background...............windpower.......junkPosted 7 months ago # -
SD - my post supports the short embodied energy claims fully. Stop arguing with a man in France over his feed in - you are not paying for it.
How do we get the UK off carbon and kick start renewables without subsidies?
Edited to add - you wanted the embodied energy payback figures (not cash payback) - I gave them. Nothing to do with subsidies.
Posted 7 months ago # -
Given that Wind production avoids turning on some of the most expensive contracted gas-fired electricty during demand peaks then it saves the consumer money.
When Spain"s windmills are running well they can turn off all the gas stations.
Posted 7 months ago # -
I said 1-3 years for to quote myself "energy payback".
Please don't misquote me SD253. I'm very carefull to read what you say and quote you accurately.
Posted 7 months ago # -
Edukator - Member
Given that Wind production avoids turning on some of the most expensive contracted gas-fired electricty during demand peaks then it saves the consumer money.When Spain"s windmills are running well they can turn off all the gas stations.
Rubbish there is always gas powered stations running in the background. Windfarms are never that reliable. The weather forecast can say winds of 30kmh and windmills can still stop as there is break in the wind. Are you saying that Spain at times runs entirely on wind?Posted 7 months ago # -
Edukator - Member
"I said 1-3 years for to quote myself "energy payback" You quote yourself? No I don't get that are you saying you get your money back in 1-3 years or carbon payback. Either way I don't believe you. By the way you are not very carefull to read what I say and quote me accuaretly.
I said 1-3 years for to quote myself "energy payback".Please don't misquote me SD253. I'm very carefull to read what you say and quote you accurately.
Posted 7 months ago # -
Edukator - Member
Why wind production be at its highest during peak needs? If they can supply during peak needs they would not need gas at all?
Given that Wind production avoids turning on some of the most expensive contracted gas-fired electricty during demand peaks then it saves the consumer money
Posted 7 months ago # -
In the UK gas fired stations are used as a quick response to winter demand peaks. It is very expensive electricity as the companies that provide it negociate high feed-in rates for the short periods the staions run for. The more cheap alternative energy production we have the less the expensive quick-response gas stations get used.
In an ideal world we would reduce overall elecricity demand and increase pump storage to the point the gas stations were never needed.
Posted 7 months ago # -
Jesus fella!!
SD why the
chill out F F S!only seen a few of your post on here but every one seems to end up with you having a pop at somebody for having an opinion
No neeeeed! calm down[edit] oh and btw I won't be back to enter into an argument, simply not interested, thanks again for everyone's input on the thread[/edit]
Posted 7 months ago # -
Edukator - Member
We've already done the energy payback time for PV panels and solar hot water heaters on STW, SD253. The payback is a year to three years for PV in Europe depending on latitude and panel type, not the 20 years you claim. The payback on thermal solar is even faster.[quote]I'm currently getting 255kWh/year per Solar World panel. In 20 years they'll produce over 4.7 megawatt hours each assuming a pessimistic performance deterioration. Do you really think it takes 4.7 MWh
Stagerring that I missed this 255kWh/year times 20 = 5100kw
In 20 years they'll produce over 4.7 megawatt
4.7 megawatts = 4,700,000 kilowatts
From wikipedia
Megawat
The megawatt is equal to one million wattshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watt
Expalin pleasePosted 7 months ago # -
29erKeith - Member
Thats crisp not a chip! I am assuming thats what it should be?
oh and btw I won't be back to enter into an argument, simply not interested, thanks again for everyone's input on the thread
I thought not as 255kWh/year times 20 = 5100kw not 4,700,000. So that appears to be a gross lie? Please tell me where I got it ........No I doubt you will be on this part of the forum again. opps wrong personPosted 7 months ago # -
SD-253 - Member
4.7 megawatts = 4,700,000 kilowatts
Maybe I'm missing something but I thought
4.7 megawatts = 4,700,000 watts = 4,700 kilowatts
Therefore 255kWh/year times 20 = 5100kw is 5.1 megawatts which is more than 4.7 megawatts.
So you are saying Edukator underestimated what he'll get rather than over estimating!!
Explain please.
Posted 7 months ago # -
yep, a megawatt is a million watts. So 255kilowatt hours for 20 yrs (and allowing for performance degradation as Edukator has - although I dont know his basis) gets you to 4,700 kilowatt hours which is 4.7 megawatt hours.
I think if SD is having that much trouble with his maths, he might want to tone his manners down a bit.
Posted 7 months ago # -
Solar World guarantee their panels to lose no more than 0.7% output per year for 25 years. I've therefore assumed the worst case and come up with about 4.7 MWh per panel in 20 years. There's no point trying to be super accurate with something so weather dependant.
Posted 7 months ago # -
Two cloudy days and the water coming out of the solar tank is now 33°C. Cloud forecast for tomorrow, time to start running the water through the immersion heater for a top up. five months and three weeks of 100% solar hot water this year thanks to the Idian summer.
Posted 7 months ago # -
good work. Im going to stop manually turning the boiler on and of (to give the solar a chance to do most of the water) this weekend, it's time now to leave it on full time and just glean what we can from solar without screwing around too much.
Posted 7 months ago # -
it's time now to leave it on full time and just glean what we can from solar without screwing around too much.
Thats where a hot water pre-heater calorifier would help.
Posted 7 months ago # -
yep.
But lack of space really. Might have a go one day when I can get hold of a free tank.
Posted 7 months ago # -
Well I've finally got my quote.
£15k for a Windhager BW26 fitted, inc plumbing and VAT.
Seems quite a lot but then someone on page 1 said Windhagers are expensive. Think I'll go and talk through some options
Posted 7 months ago # -
for a windhager, that sounds about right.
£10k for a lower spec brand.
Posted 7 months ago # -
15k. How about 9.5k of insulating materials, 2.5k for a solar hot water heater, 2k for a wood burner and 1k for a basic air/air DC converter air con unit.
Edit: we've used the immersion heater once in the last week and the temperature in the house has just dipped below 20°C for the first time this Autumn. The weather is improving though so we might get another week before lighting the wood burner. 2nd edit: having checked the weather forecast again that migh tbe optimistic, -1°C forecast for the mornings.
Posted 7 months ago # -
That's for a top spec Windhager too - there is a cheaper version which I'm thinking we'll go for. Only thing that's putting me off is he compared it to an Audi
Posted 7 months ago #
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