Viewing 40 posts - 121 through 160 (of 175 total)
  • Biomass/Solar eco experts, advice sought. Stoner +?
  • geoffj
    Full Member

    Only mrsj’s nerves when the boil valve opened!

    Dobbo
    Full Member

    Spangly new boiler stove – 14kw to water, 8kw to room

    Is that both at the same time, i.e. total output 22kw? That’s some heat, what size is it, I take it you’ll be using coal or it’ll be a full time job keeping it stoked?

    geoffj
    Full Member

    Is that both at the same time, i.e. total output 22kw? That’s some heat, what size is it, I take it you’ll be using coal or it’ll be a full time job keeping it stoked?

    Oops no, its 20kw (only 12 to boiler). I’m burning a mix of seasoned hard and softwood. Only used it for the first time last night, but it didn’t seem too bad on wood. It has a vent thermostat which cuts the draw down once the water in the boiler is up to temp, so it burns quite slowly once everything is up to temperature.

    It’s this one – linky

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    Stoner
    Free Member

    nice looking box that geoff.

    sharkbait
    Free Member

    Oops no, its 20kw (only 12 to boiler). I’m burning a mix of seasoned hard and softwood. Only used it for the first time last night, but it didn’t seem too bad on wood.

    20Kw and 41,000btu 😯 Wow, seriously? It’s not much bigger than my Clearview vision 500 and that ‘only’ produces 8Kw and 10,000btu – how do they do that??
    I can’t help but feel that it’s going to take some serious stoking to produce those figures 😐

    geoffj
    Full Member

    I can’t help but feel that it’s going to take some serious stoking to produce those figures

    Mebe – but as I managed to boil the heat store last night without really trying, I’m impressed so far.

    The best bit about that stove is that I didn’t have to re-route the flu and incur £500 worth of stove fitting bills as a result. It just slotted in almost exactly (had to take the t-piece up 15mm) where the old one was 8)

    Dobbo
    Full Member

    nice looking box that geoff.

    +1

    Good thread this one 8)

    sharkbait
    Free Member

    I managed to boil the heat store last night without really trying, I’m impressed so far

    Nice one! Don’t forget that the base water temp at the moment is a fair bit higher than it will be in February. Keep us updated on how you get on with it – it makes interesting reading.
    We live in a 1950’s ex-farmhouse that is currently running oil CH and a stove (for the last 12 months). The boiler is pretty old and at some point will need replacing. This thread has been very educational about what alternatives are available. We’re lucky in that the house faces south so PV would be OK, we also have a number of paddocks so GSHP is also an option.
    I’m going to hold off for as long as possible before making any changes though as I’m hoping there will be some big advances in alternative heat sources over the next few years.

    donsimon
    Free Member

    I’d echo what edukator has said here. Having worked with A/c I was biased towards its usage in commercial buildings, but I can not see any practical application in domestic use. It simply doesn’t get hot enough in the UK to justify. If the internal temperature does increase to uncomfortable levels it’s probably due to the rather large windows we seem to use and the solar heat gain. Solution? Ceiling fans, but this increases consumption and again I agree with edukator in that reducing consumption is the way forward. We need something that will block the sun on those rare sunny days to keep the temperature down, yet we’ll want that sunlight on cold winter days and something to prevent heat loss at night through that large window area.
    Edukator again has the experience of both significantly higher temperatures and the usage of insulated shutters. With regard to widespread usage in the UK from my point of view new installations are the way forward, but the retro-fitting isn’t necessarily impossible (bay windows offer a challenge) or even difficult and when applied we can see heat loss savings of up to 70% (the higher spec the window, the lower the figure) and something that isn’t aesthetically detrimental to a building (quite the reverse) in my opinion.

    geoffj
    Full Member

    DS – what’s your take on why shutters aren’t more popular in the UK?

    My polish builder/plumber/solar installer mate considered importing them from Poland, but he didn’t do enough research to work out the size of the market/barriers etc.

    donsimon
    Free Member

    My polish builder/plumber/solar installer mate considered importing them from Poland, but he didn’t do enough research to work out the size of the market/barriers etc.

    I imagine he was faced with the typically superior attitude and equally lazy British worker. I imagine he can’t unterstand how British companies can work when they are faced with public sector attitudes in the private sector and the level of ignorance of companies that claim to offer services yet don’t even have the courtesy to respond. I’m still waiting for a reply from your mates!
    I also have to ask if I have done something to offend you geoffj? As you seem to be on a bit of a mission and can’t help but have a pop at me. Interesting attitude for someone who is starting out in the business world offering to share their knowledge and experience helping start ups, don’t you think?

    geoffj
    Full Member

    don – nowt wrong at this end. I’m genuinely interested in the shutters idea. Like I say, my friend mentioned it to me 2 years ago. It made sense then, and it does in theory now. He didn’t pursue it any further and set up as a renewables installer, but he still has the Polish contacts, and I think it would be a useful additional product line for him to include in the portfolio, but its not something we have traditionally had on british houses – well not in the past 100 years or so?

    There must be an opportunity there though – good luck with it.

    donsimon
    Free Member

    There must be an opportunity there though – good luck with it.

    Clearly there’s an opportunity (or 20 million opportunities) and there’s a reason why there isn’t an uptake in the UK. The good news is that you are already in possession of the reason why there isn’t an uptake.
    Edukator knows the benefits and your Polish friend knows the benefits and the benefits that each of them see are different, and they know the benefits because of experience.
    If your Polish friend want some more info on entering the market, for a small consultancy fee…

    SD-253
    Free Member

    Accumulator tank certainly seems the way to go if you have the space and the mates to help you carry it and wide enough doors. It allowes just about everything to be connected and looses 2c in 24 hours but as you will be using it that will probably mean 1c on average.
    I am against solar because we are in the UK but and they do not offer value for money AND they are no good for the environment. Nobody seems to take in the environmental investment cost. IE something that produces 25 tonnes of carbon to make and saves 1 ton a year and has a life expectancy of 20 years. I think that solar is close to those sort of figures in the UK. Double glazing is definatly more costly both in money terms and evironmental terms.
    Now no one seems to take into account electric central heating even using electric radaitors which are fantasticaly well insulated nowdays and have a minimal loss of heat during the day. Also they are very very enviromentally friendly as huge amounts E7 overnight electricity is wasted ie they can’t reduce output of power stations to equal use. Therfore you are in effect creating no carbon whatsoever. Even if more people used it you would be increasing the efficency of power stations.
    In terms of costs LPG gives you 7.11 kw while oil gives you 10.35 kilowatts…….assuming 100% efficensy while 90% is in fact the best you can expect. My LPG costs 46.5 liter (delivery is by tanker and put into a tank in my garden). Compared to most people this is cheap a LPG price. LPG therfore cost me 7.19p per kwh. My E7 (I only have this for environmental reasons)is 6p per kw but this is a standard tarrif as I haven not changed yet to a cheaper fixed tarrif. Last year it was 3p night E7 ignoring all the money I got back at the end (63 pound and i only used 20 pound worth a month).
    A friend pays 50 pound a month DD all in for his E7. despite working at home a lot. Everytime I have been there it is overly hot and he is walking round in his underwear (not a pretty site). It is 2 bed bungalow good insulation.
    Now we come to wood chip no I would never touch it even, though it is cheapest. I am suspcious of where the price will be as it is becoming much more popular.
    Firewood? bit dodgy this as price varies hugely around the country and can easily be much more expensive than any other form of heating. Moreover the way they sell it in terms of measurements leaves a lot to be desired 100 pound per load what kind of measurement is that? Lincolnshire is one area where I believe the cost is much higher than any other form of heating………….or is it? I have had free wood for 3 years. How did I get it? Mind your own bussiness!!!!! But it paid for the wood burner with in 2 years (no back boiler).
    My choice if starting from the beginning? E7 Radiators and a wood burner. Value for money as I only have a 2 bed bungalow so I think I would be going over the top with an acumalator tank. Note if you only have electricity you cannot include the standing charge as that would be double counting. JB

    http://www.stovesonline.co.uk/wood_burning_stoves/Accumulator-hot-water-tanks.html

    sharkbait
    Free Member

    ^^ Great info. I didn’t know about E7 radiators…. interesting.

    donsimon
    Free Member

    Are these electric radiators what I would recognise as the old storage heaters? Charge them up over night and let the heat trickle out during the day, kind of thing?

    Dobbo
    Full Member

    I wonder if heat-pumps heat output gets higher if a heat pump running overnight on E7 charging a thermal store (+feeding rads/UF) would be viable, it must make more sense than E7 radiators or storage heaters due to the COP?

    I did some work years ago at John Lewis on Oxford Street where they had large tanks that they would freeze overnight on E7 to use for the AC during the day time and keep the chillers off.

    donsimon
    Free Member

    Isn’t the main problem with the E7/storage heaters the lack of control? You’d need to keep on top of the weather forecast on the previous 24 hours so that you’d know when to charge them and when not to, equally how much to charge them too. While the bills were cheap and the house warm, I often found it too warm and had to open windows, which isn’t very efficient.

    Dobbo
    Full Member

    Isn’t the main problem with the E7/storage heaters the lack of control?

    Defo, plus they are ugly great things (from memory), if you had room for a thermal store a heat pump on E7 would help eliminate the control problem and be nicer in the living space plus better efficiency. just need to get the heat output up on them, but I think they are heading that way.

    paul4stones
    Full Member

    Waiting for nonk’s mate to give me a price for a Windhager biomass boiler. Been waiting a while. They seem *quite* relaxed . . .

    Dobbo
    Full Member

    That what I’ve got, you going for pellet or log?

    Stoner
    Free Member

    I was shown a double pellet boiler windhager set up this weekend at a mates.

    Its in a block of 6x flats with a 1500L thermal store. Very nicely installed too – wouldnt believe how packed into such a small space it is. Originally they were planning 2x different fuel boilers – one pellet, one gas. Not sure why they went with 2x pellet in the end. with the 1500L buffer I reckon a single 28kW boiler would have coped instead of 2×28=56kW!

    Might have a pic on my phone which Ill put up in a bit.

    Edukator
    Free Member

    We’ve already done the energy payback time for PV panels and solar hot water heaters on STW, SD253. The payback is a year to three years for PV in Europe depending on latitude and panel type, not the 20 years you claim. The payback on thermal solar is even faster.

    I’m currently getting 255kWh/year per Solar World panel. In 20 years they’ll produce over 4.7 megawatt hours each assuming a pessimistic performance deterioration. Do you really think it takes 4.7 MWh to mine the materials and manufature one little panel you can pick up with ease? I doubt it costs much more energy than digging/firing/transporting the roof tiles it replaces.

    An air/air heat pump working at -7°C still beats any form of E7 electrical resistance heater in terms of COP so you are better off using a heat pump even on night tarif. With a low-temperature geothermal heat pump then a COP of 4.5 is currently achievable. Why favour something with a COP of 1?

    paul4stones
    Full Member

    Pellets hopefully. The windhager seemed the best for a straight replacement for an oil boiler. Alternative was a pallezetti (?) which would need a buffer (and mean we’d have to lose our 2yr old non-vented hot water) whereas the Windhager can cope with the variable demands in the same way as a regular boiler can.

    Must get back to them and chivvy!

    SD-253
    Free Member

    don simon – Member
    Are these electric radiators what I would recognise as the old storage heaters? Charge them up over night and let the heat trickle out during the day, kind of thing?

    Yes apart from letting the heat out as they are highly insulated of course they must let the heat out but over much longer period of time. Note the insulation varies you have pick how high an insulation you want and they still have the bricks in them.

    SD-253
    Free Member

    don simon – Member
    Isn’t the main problem with the E7/storage heaters the lack of control? You’d need to keep on top of the weather forecast on the previous 24 hours so that you’d know when to charge them and when not to, equally how much to charge them too. While the bills were cheap and the house warm, I often found it too warm and had to open windows, which isn’t very efficient.

    As stated they are much more controlable nowadays (not my views but of those who have it). Although you have a point about the weather forecast you still have to take into account the excellent insulation which means a latge proportion of the heat could be used the next day.

    I often found it too warm and had to open windows, which isn’t very efficient.

    That view implies that your radiators were very old and not very controlable but despite this you are saying it was cheap to run!!!!!! Also as I stated huge amounts of electricity as lost at night. So much so in fact that they have dug lakes at the bottom and top of mountains in Wales and dug the centre of the mountains out and put turbines in. At night they pump the water from the bottom lake to the top lake and drop it down through the turbines at peak times. Now that shows just how much spare capacity they have at night?

    SD-253
    Free Member

    Edukator – Member
    We’ve already done the energy payback time for PV panels and solar hot water heaters on STW, SD253. The payback is a year to three years for PV in Europe depending on latitude and panel type, not the 20 years you claim. The payback on thermal solar is even faster.

    I claimed nothing of the sort merely giving an example of the failure to take into account investment cost to the environment,

    I’m currently getting 255kWh/year per Solar World panel. In 20 years they’ll produce over 4.7 megawatt hours each assuming a pessimistic performance deterioration. Do you really think it takes 4.7 MWh to mine the materials and manufature one little panel you can pick up with ease?

    Again as you are full aware I was giving an example and did not relate directly to solar per se. Why you are lying is beyond me.

    An air/air heat pump working at -7°C still beats any form of E7 electrical resistance heater in terms of COP so you are better off using a heat pump even on night tarif. With a low-temperature geothermal heat pump then a COP of 4.5 is currently achievable. Why favour something with a COP of 1?

    ]Yet again I was not talking about a heat pump…….what was the point of saying I was?

    Edukator – Member
    We’ve already done the energy payback time for PV panels and solar hot water heaters on STW, SD253. The payback is a year to three years for PV in Europe depending on latitude and panel type, not the 20 years you claim. The payback on thermal solar is even faster.

    I claimed nothing of the sort merely giving an example of the failure to take into account investment cost to the environment, Again as you are fully aware I was giving an example and did not relate directly to solar per se. Note if you got pay back in 3 years everyone would have one. Even using a feed in tariff no company I have checked with suggested you would get your money back in 3 never mind 1 year. And that was with a feed in tariff of 40p electricity should not be hard to find at 12p. I hope you understand what I am saying??

    Edukator
    Free Member

    SD253:

    I am against solar because we are in the UK but and they do not offer value for money AND they are no good for the environment. Nobody seems to take in the environmental investment cost. IE something that produces 25 tonnes of carbon to make and saves 1 ton a year and has a life expectancy of 20 years.

    Care to apologise for calling me a liar.

    SD-253
    Free Member

    Edukator – Member
    SD253:

    I am against solar because we are in the UK but and they do not offer value for money AND they are no good for the environment. Nobody seems to take in the environmental investment cost. IE something that produces 25 tonnes of carbon to make and saves 1 ton a year and has a life expectancy of 20 years.

    Care to apologise for calling me a liar.
    Let me think about it……… no pr*ck Yet again I was giving an example of the failure to take in the investment cost. Now after considering your belief that you can get back your investment in 1 year that is a belief that you think everyone who is on this site is thick. I DO NOT BELIEVE YOU. AND I HAVE CHECKED WITH FIRMS WHO HAVE SAID THE SAME. YOU ARE TALKING SHITE. As a matter of interest does anyone think they can get there money back in 1 year

    The payback is a year to three years for PV in Europe depending on latitude and panel type

    in 1 year you can get your money back??? Stop taking drugs there bad for you!! Before you report me I would stress that was joke…..Honest

    TooTall
    Free Member

    SD-253

    He means carbon payback, not cash. Here are further details to back his point and refute your timescales:

    http://info.cat.org.uk/questions/pv/what-energy-and-carbon-payback-time-pv-panels-uk

    There is spare capacity at night in the grid – largely because we’re generating that electricity from burning coal and oil. Ultimately we will run out of them and need other forms of energy, like solar and wind.

    Stoner
    Free Member

    not really adding anything more than insults and a short fuse to what was an informative thread there SD253, are you?

    Edukator
    Free Member

    You talked about carbon so I talked about carbon, SD-253.

    If you wish to talk about financial payback we can. My own PV system is on target to pay for itself in 6.5 years thanks to a generous feed-in tarif when I signed the contract.

    My solar thermal will take longer to pay for itself: 11-12 years based on a conservative estimate of gas/electricity saved of 95e a year and a total cost of 1100e. Since the middle of April I’ve only had to switch the immersion heater on twice (when we had guests). Depending on the weather, the sun provides all of our hot water for 5-6 months, most of it for another three months and still makes some contribution in the coldest, darkest months.

    You get about 25% less solar radiation in the southern UK but even with a corresponding increase in financial payback times both PV and solar thermal are viable.

    SD-253
    Free Member

    Edukator – MemberYou talked about carbon so I talked about carbon, SD-253.

    If you wish to talk about financial payback we can. My own PV system is on target to pay for itself in 6.5 years thanks to a generous feed-in tarif when I signed the contract.

    My solar thermal will take longer to pay for itself: 11-12 years based on a conservative estimate of gas/electricity saved of 95e a year and a total cost of 1100e. Since the middle of April I’ve only had to switch the immersion heater on twice (when we had guests). Depending on the weather, the sun provides all of our hot water for 5-6 months, most of it for another three months and still makes some contribution in the coldest, darkest months.

    You get about 25% less solar radiation in the southern UK but even with a corresponding increase in financial payback times both PV and solar thermal are viable.

    You said 1 to 3 year not 6. Further more as you are getting 4 times the electtric selling cost ie 40p not 10p. Then 4 x 6 = 24years before payback without the ludicrous feed in tariff. You have now changed the environmetal payback to 24years. Are you on drugs or something ENVIRONMENTAL FEEDBCK 24 YEARS. The fact is you are ripping off other electricity users by significantly increasing there bills

    My solar thermal will take longer to pay for itself: 11-12 years based

    Is this the 3 year payback???????
    Does it make you feel good when you have your friends round for a dinner party to tell them how you are saving the world by significantly increasing the cost of electricity for those who cannot aford to buy this fake environmental goods. I am talking of course about the working class and the retired.
    As far aas I am concerened you are a typical greedy grabbing member of the Liberal (so called) middle class who pays lip service to the environment.

    SD-253
    Free Member

    TooTall – Member
    SD-253

    He means carbon payback, not cash. Here are further details to back his point and refute your timescales:

    http://info.cat.org.uk/questions/pv/what-energy-and-carbon-payback-time-pv-panels-uk

    There is spare capacity at night in the grid – largely because we’re generating that electricity from burning coal and oil. Ultimately we will run out of them and need other forms of energy, like solar and wind.
    Yes you are right if you steal of the poor you can get a quick feedback. You do know that last year (january) the variation in electricity production for windpower was 1 mega watt to 124 megawatt. Therefore at all times a gas powered station is running in the background……………windpower…….junk

    TooTall
    Free Member

    SD – my post supports the short embodied energy claims fully. Stop arguing with a man in France over his feed in – you are not paying for it.

    How do we get the UK off carbon and kick start renewables without subsidies?

    Edited to add – you wanted the embodied energy payback figures (not cash payback) – I gave them. Nothing to do with subsidies.

    Edukator
    Free Member

    Given that Wind production avoids turning on some of the most expensive contracted gas-fired electricty during demand peaks then it saves the consumer money.

    When Spain”s windmills are running well they can turn off all the gas stations.

    Edukator
    Free Member

    I said 1-3 years for to quote myself “energy payback”.

    Please don’t misquote me SD253. I’m very carefull to read what you say and quote you accurately.

    SD-253
    Free Member

    Edukator – Member
    Given that Wind production avoids turning on some of the most expensive contracted gas-fired electricty during demand peaks then it saves the consumer money.

    When Spain”s windmills are running well they can turn off all the gas stations.
    Rubbish there is always gas powered stations running in the background. Windfarms are never that reliable. The weather forecast can say winds of 30kmh and windmills can still stop as there is break in the wind. Are you saying that Spain at times runs entirely on wind?

    SD-253
    Free Member

    Edukator – Member
    I said 1-3 years for to quote myself “energy payback”.

    Please don’t misquote me SD253. I’m very carefull to read what you say and quote you accurately.

    “I said 1-3 years for to quote myself “energy payback” You quote yourself? No I don’t get that are you saying you get your money back in 1-3 years or carbon payback. Either way I don’t believe you. By the way you are not very carefull to read what I say and quote me accuaretly.

    SD-253
    Free Member

    Edukator – Member
    Given that Wind production avoids turning on some of the most expensive contracted gas-fired electricty during demand peaks then it saves the consumer money

    Why wind production be at its highest during peak needs? If they can supply during peak needs they would not need gas at all?

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