I’m thinking specifically of this horrific case, fairly local to me

Rochdale ‘grooming’ trial

Is it getting to the point where the failure of the police in particular to even discuss the racial aspect of this case, probably because they’re scared of what it may unleash, is now completely counter-productive to racial harmony?

All along the police and politicians have said there is no racial element to this case. This is patent nonsense to anyone who’s got anything between their ears. And its incredibly patronising to try and close down discussion in this way. This is obviously a complex issue and needs open discussion. Which ‘the authorities’ seem to be doing everything to avoid

It seems that the only people who are wanting to discuss this are members of the Muslim community. From the article:

A Muslim community leader has said there is a “problem” of British Pakistani men thinking “white girls are worthless and can be abused”.

I rode through Heywood on my commute home last night and there were police absolutely everywhere. That’s all well and good to stop random misguided vigilante violence from idiots, but in the longer term this is something that clearly needs to be addressed between communities. Sadly, Judging from what I’ve seen, this is the last thing that’s actually going to happen

So is the over-sensitive treatment of racial issues now becoming ridiculously self-defeating and exasperating existing problems. Your thoughts….?

No one is willing to say there is a problem as they fear being branded racist or stirring up trouble.

It said on the BBC news last night words to the effect of – a disproportionate number of abuse cases are committed by Asian men.

It also said, the abuse was reported to the police as far back as 2008.

Multiple issues including failures of several parties.

The “expert” interviewed on R4 last night was making the point that this was not a racial problem as there are plenty of other cases where the racial mix of offender and victim is different. Could well be true – have to assume she knows what she is talking about. But in this specific case the race and nationality of both the offenders and the victims is consistent so one must assume this is not accidental and in this specific case race played a part. Not sure it teaches us much about society in general though or “lessons to be learnt” if the interviewee is correct. The bigger picture is men still praying on vulnerable girls which is worrying irrespective of race.

As all of these men come from different countries (Pakistan and Afghanistan), I’m all for ejecting them once their term is served.

All along the police and politicians have said there is no racial element to this case. This is patent nonsense to anyone who’s got anything between their ears. And its incredibly patronising to try and close down discussion in this way. This is obviously a complex issue and needs open discussion. Which ‘the authorities’ seem to be doing everything to avoid

So, you know all the facts, do you? I mean, clearly this is just a big conspiracy by the Leftist police to deny any racial issues, and no-one can see it but you.

Except that the Chief Constable of the area said last night (I saw the interview) that there were several other investigations of a very similar nature going on right now, in the same area….and the men concerned in that case were not of Asian origin.

You’re right to say that there needs to be an open discussion. But I don’t think your opening point shows a particularly open mind.

I was listening to some experts (and the Police? spokesperson) on R4 last night – not sure if same as above.

The point being made was that the ethnicity of the perpetrators was not an issue in this case, and therefore no racial implications.

But surely, the ethnicity of the victims does make it an issue?

The bigger picture is men still praying on vulnerable girls which is worrying irrespective of race.

I’m sure all agree

No one is willing to say there is a problem as they fear being branded racist or stirring up trouble.

It said on the BBC news last night words to the effect of – a disproportionate number of abuse cases are committed by Asian men.

These two statements contradict each other.

Is it racism or cultural differences?

Ok maybe a bit of a generalisation on my part, but Asian culture keeps very close tabs on girls and what they are doing at all times (rightly or wrongly).

You could argue that many white girls go out, do what they want when they want, and because Asian men want sex, they see white girls as an easier catch than Asian girls.

Maybe if white girls parents took a bit more interest in the where abouts of their daughters?

Yes I know big sweeping statements etc…

What percentage of UK population is Pakistani?

What percentage of the UK population is classed as Paedophile?

The media reported that 80% of the UK Paedophiles are white however proportionality…….

I’ll leave that there for you all to chew over…

Except that the Chief Constable of the area said last night (I saw the interview) that there were several other investigations of a very similar nature going on right now, in the same area….and the men concerned in that case were not of Asian origin.

err, in the previous sentence, Binners has made it clear is is talking about the clear racial element to…

this case

…so not the other cases currently ongoing.

I think it also raises issues about the same people who are no doubt baying for blood on the streets of Heywood. The oposite side of the racial spectrum, if you like. Which are also not being discussed.

Namely, WTF are 13 year old girls doing out until all hours, taking drugs and drinking, while being ferried around from town to town? And how can you take so little notice of your children that you wouldn’t notice the effects of systemic sexual abuse over a sustained period?

I think that’s one area the white community may need to take a look at too

You could argue that many white girls go out, do what they want when they want, and because Asian men want sex, they see white girls as an easier catch than Asian girls.

The police spokesman on R4 this morning suggested exactly that.

Maybe if white girls parents took a bit more interest in the where abouts of their daughters?

dear me

I’m sure all agree

Absolutely. And while the ethnicity of the perpetrators may or may not play a part (I don’t know all the facts and therefore am in no position to judge), I’d hate the fact that this is an ongoing child abuse issue to be overshadowed by yet another let’s-have-a-go-about-race in the small papers.

Maybe if white girls parents took a bit more interest in the where abouts of their daughters?

You know, that’d be asking for people to be responsible parents.

dear me

Well the police spokesman suggested something similar (not quite in those terms) – but I guess you know better?

This a problem that exists where cultural values clash. It’s not ‘racist’ per se.

If parents of all cultures in our communities took greater responsibility for the social education of their children including the need for greater respect from and to all parties then we’d be far better off as a society.

The cycnic in me says, that most xxxisms tend only to work unilaterally. An alternative side makes me ask why. Most xxxisms were a reaction to discrimination against the relevant xxx ie, race, sex, age etc. In that sense a positive discrimination or bias is understandable (albeit philosophers will still debate its logic). But as societies make progress in addressing discrimination and bias, then surely a balance is needed with all sides treated fairly. So racism/sexism is truly eradicated when the need to add a racial/sexual adjective simply becomes unnecessary. Clearly we have a long way to go here (sadly)!

Failure to do that, merely feeds cynicism and ultimately back fires on those who are being discriminated against and/or leads to a failure to tackle abuse in the alternative direction as is perhaps the case here.

The intriguing sub-plot is whether cultural/racial tolerance actually condones other forms of discrimination (eg sexual) and how that should be addressed.

I question if it should be regarded as racism – it is their religious views that make them regard “white girls are worthless and can be abused”, nothing to do with them being Indian or Pakastani.

Could it not be construed as a religious ‘hate’ crime?

From my observation, having been raised in a country that has (mostly) genuinely embraced multiculturalism, I think that British people don’t really understand concepts of race and racism, racial politics, biculturalism, multiculturalism etc.

Which is odd given the ethnic/racial/cultural mix of many big cities.

I blame the education system, and Thatcher of course.

These guys are just creeps, but as this is such a segregated society, their creepy friends are of the same ethnic group.

I am over sensitive to grammatical issues. Too sensitive, or over-sensitive. Using both is tautological.

“These guys a re just creeps, but as this is such a segregated society, their friends are of the same group.”

Thats part of the problem itself. Politicians / do gooders constantly say how multi cultural the UK is, as though we all get on as one big happy family. The reality is that the UK is a multicultural VERY segregated society. A politician will never admit that, and until people do admit it nothing will change.

I remember a long time ago a letters thread in the NME.
At a rap concert gunshots were fired in the air. People were writing in saying this was a bad thing.
One of the oh so pc journos defended shooting guns in the air at a concert as a cultural thing.
Going back on topic, a lot of people on here are blaming the girls. That’s just stupid, I see young girls on the streets. I don’t get together a bunch of sick bastards to do terrible things to them.
The men in court are totally responsible.

Oooh get Miss Molgrips !! I’ll take your tautology and over raise you with miscegenation.

R4 had a number of commentators on this am, including ex head of the prison service / head of Barnardos, Keith Vaz MP and a spokesperson for muslim community group.

(please allow some lattitude for my para-phrasing)

The head of Barnardos made the point that perhaps the white girls were an easier group to target for this sort of crime – rightly or wrongly.

Worryingly, the muslim community group spokesperson suggested that most young muslims would be as horrified as anyone else about this abhorrent crime (rightly so), but went on to say, that most community elders would see the white girls as “asking for it”. If that is the “elders” views, is it by extrapolation, also a view held by more conservatively minded younger members of the community?

I’ll keep my own personal experiences of what white girls have been called/described to myself unless I’m branded a ‘racist’.

“Going back on topic, a lot of people on here are blaming the girls.”

Quite who above was blaming the girls?

Showing results for miscegenation

Search instead for miscengenation

Nice try 🙂

I question if it should be regarded as racism – it is their religious views that make them regard “white girls are worthless and can be abused”, nothing to do with them being Indian or Pakastani.

Or the fact that white girls in Rochdale probably are in general much more promiscuous/sexually available/active than Asian girls. I’m sure I will be accused of blaming the victims but that’s not what I’m getting at at all and not suggesting the is any excuse for abusing anyone.

hels – which country is that then?

+1 zippykona, besides, we can only be responsible for our children to a point, I was very often not where I told my parents I would be, I never told them I was off to smoke weed or drink cider.

Namely, WTF are 13 year old girls doing out until all hours, taking drugs and drinking, while being ferried around from town to town? And how can you take so little notice of your children that you wouldn’t notice the effects of systemic sexual abuse over a sustained period?

I think that’s one area the white community may need to take a look at too I must admit I thought the girls would have been from a broken home or some sort of hellish background – sobering to read one of the mum’s saying it could happen to anyone (in the Guardian yesterday). Reported as being a middle-class, stable and well-educated family.
It is tempting to think how in God’s name could you let this happen, but I guess if a parent / teenage relationship starts to unravel things can get out of hand v quickly.

The men in court are totally responsible.

I’m not sure where anyone has suggested otherwise.

molgrips – Member
Showing results for miscegenation. Search instead for miscengenation. Nice try

Oops, glass houses, perhaps….

molgrips – Member
I didn’t say he was an idiot by the way, I called him an idiot

Perhaps we can all make typos!!! 😉

I’m from New Zealand. There are pockets of resistance, but we do try quite hard to all get on and understand each other.

I would also add that your British class system clouds these issues. People seem to look for reasons to be apart from each other. And weird sectarian stuff, must have had to try REALLY hard to find a reason to put yourselves above other people whoever came up with that.

Another potential factor is re the use of drugs/alcohol to exploit the girls. Now again this is a big generalisation, but it seems reasonably likely that the use of drugs/alcohol by young white girls is higher than among Asian girls, making the white girls more vulnerable.

Hels – interesting. I know some people who lived in New Zealand for several years and they described it as being pretty backward in terms of social attitudes/racism etc, especially towards the Maoris.

BTW, a quote from the guy from the Ramadhan Foundation mentioned earlier:

Sadly when a recent white gang were convicted in Portsmouth of grooming there was very little coverage in the media but when Asian gangs are convicted there was blanket coverage, some elements of the media are feeding division when we should all be uniting to ensure that there is no safe place for these criminals from any race or background.

Bad people do bad things, in this case the bad people are Asian, in many other cases they’re not…
Bad people, not bad races.

What percentage of UK population is Pakistani?
What percentage of the UK population is classed as Paedophile?
The media reported that 80% of the UK Paedophiles are white however proportionality…….
I’ll leave that there for you all to chew over…

I’ve chewed it over and your point is??? The other 20% must be Pakistani or what??? Plenty of other races could be in that 20% or was it solely a White and Pakistani survey excluding everyone else?
Bad People do bad things…

What percentage of UK population is Pakistani?
What percentage of the UK population is classed as Paedophile?
The media reported that 80% of the UK Paedophiles are white however proportionality…….
I’ll leave that there for you all to chew over…

In 2009 the population of England was ever so slightly over 80% “white British”

So those stats look about right really don’t they ?

Not much to chew over really, unless I’m missing something obvious.

Given that today’s Sun is using terms like ‘Asian sex monsters’ in relation to this case I’m not sure they can be accused of being over sensitive on race issues.

Yes you could argue the term is factually accurate, but why highlight their ethnicity? If it was a white gang would they describe them as ‘white sex monsters’?

It’s far too easy to generalise about large groups in society.

The situation in some towns (for various historical reasons) can lead to a divided society, which is not a good thing.

‘Cultural differences’ may provide opportunities for people of certain groups to exploit those in other groups

Although extremely unpleasant, this particular issue is a very small, specific sub-set of ‘sex crime’ that appeals to the fears of Middle-England …and people of more overtly racist views, hence the enormous media coverage.

I suspect that a lot more abuse is perpetrated within families(of all races).

I’d also suggest that the sexual exploitation of girls, assisted by drugs and alcohol, is not limited to some men of Asian descent cruising about Lancashire towns in cars on the prowl. It certainly wasn’t in my (almost exclusively ‘white’) Lancashire town 15-20 years ago…

I’m wondering if Jack Straw is going to be given a public apology? how about one for Ann Cryer as well?

Friends from the Keighley area have been telling these tales for over a decade, channel four made a documentary on it, that was never shown for some strange reason

Hell, a certain Mr Griffin was even prosecuted for making these allegations…