On the recent 'fuel' post we had many individuals claiming how cheap public transport is demonstrating this by quoting ticket prices.

But this presumes that you only pay for your own, and also that you will travel by yourself.

Have none of these people got families and/or children, or indeed any friends to travel with?

I've three kids, so pay for five in total. A London return (cheap rate on a weekend) is £100, but only an 80 mile round trip – not hard to do the maths!

Could this not have gone in the other thread?

We often use the train instead of driving, for four of us, because it's easier and more convenient.

If you hadn't already made your own mind up it might be worth replying.
Oh.

Public transport is very cheap for me, disabled persons travel pass – free local rail & bus trnsport. Married, with kid, and I have friends.

No, you're correct as a rule BR, but it doesn't always work. I live in Cheshire and the cheapest train tickets for 3 of us return to London (only the one child here) is £66.00. Little more expensive than fuel in our frugal car, but take into account parking, congestion charge etc. and it's a no brainer.

However, Chester park and ride is, IIRC £1.50 per passenger and it's only £3.00 to park on the courts* all day at the weekend, which to my mind is crackers.

*I think it might have gone up a bit recently, but I'm pretty sure it's still the more economical for a car with four people.

No, you're correct as a rule BR, but it doesn't always work. I live in Cheshire and the cheapest train tickets for 3 of us return to London (only the one child here) is £66.00. Little more expensive than fuel in our frugal car, but take into account parking, congestion charge etc. and it's a no brainer.

Amazing isn't, that you can get to London by train for the same price as us – and we live in Buckinghamshire!

But then how far in advance have you to buy those tickets, and how restrictive are they?

Depends on your local conditions I suppose, but certainly for me I've always priced up trips (where possible) with public transport and never yet found one that was cheaper overall with the addition of a second person, occasionally the train beats a single person in a frugal car, but even that's rare and inconvenient I'm afraid.

I do, and expect to continue, commute on my own. Sometimes go further away solo as well. Did anyone claim that public transport is always cheapest, or show examples when it might be?
Any chance that you don't have to commit to one or the other for your entire life? Maybe choose according to the journey, purpose, who is using the car, are you having a drink etc?

hiya frontal lobe, did you get my email about the headset

lunis46 AT yahoo.com

Trains are often an expensive luxury, buses unpleasant, sadly I take the car more than I'd like.

Any chance that you don't have to commit to one or the other for your entire life? Maybe choose according to the journey, purpose, who is using the car, are you having a drink etc?

Many people do that already, but are blasted anyway as non-green and wasteful, requiring higher fuel prices to put them off car use. That's where the anger stems.

Did anyone claim that public transport is always cheapest, or show examples when it might be?

People do often try to, yes. And people often try to suggest people should use trains instead of cars as a more sensible alternative, seeing as cars are the spawn of the devil. Sometimes these people live in cities already, or do very few trips to anywhere and have very little going on in their life so rarely require anything more than a subway across town.

It costs me as much in fuel to go home to my parents (Reading to Derby, in the MG Midget) as the train fare with YP rail card. About £35 round trip as the midget returns supprisingly frugal econamy at 55-60ish.

Its the ball ache of having to get busses and walking arround at each end that gets me, the car I can prat about all evening on friday, go to the pub for a quick pint, fiddle with th ebikes, do the washing, and still be at my parents by 10pm. On the train I'd have to:

Leave work at 3:30, get busses home (3 miles), 4:45, get everything, 5:00 get bus into town, 5:36 (if i'm lucky, if not 6:10) on the train, get to derby 8:00-8:30 ish, get on bus, add another hour and i'm at the gates, then its another hours walk carrying my bags to get home.

The car is a nice relaxing cruise, with no smell of 'bacon and cheese' microwave panini making me want to vomit.

If you exclude the cost of owning the vehicle in the first place.

Some people just feel that public transport is beneath them.

If you exclude the cost of owning the vehicle in the first place.

You can practically write off the cost of car ownership when you compare it to 4 or 5 large train journeys per year. My annual "fixed costs" on the car are less than 5 trips to see my parents (xmas, birthdays, fewer now that I live with my other half and she travels too) by richard bransons finest, and after that's accepted all of my other journeys cost less by default as theyre only really about fuel and wear.

It's a sorry situation. My gf and I decided to get rid of (her) car a few years ago to pay off some small debts and also because we reasoned we didn't need it. We got on fine and found taxi's trains etc. not too bad. I did find a few things.
You travel around less through necessity.
You rely on other people with cars for 'difficult' journey's and feel like a bit of a skank by being unable to return the favour (personal feelings).
My gf was travelling for work using small local trains and found them so unreliable (consistently late, missing out stops because conductor had an extended tea break before setting off) that we had to get a car so she could continue working in that job.
We got a cheap ass car but we find that given that we have the car, train's are VERY rarely cost effective for two people. We travel solo by train relatively regularly but we find the only time it makes sense as a couple is on trips down to London (we're in Sheffield). It's a pity, but once you have a car, public transport becomes increasingly unattractive. I'm speaking as an advocate of a good public transport system.

The problem is that public transport is privately owned. Whose fault is that again?

coffeeking- cars are the spawn of the devil! But just like he has the best music, he has the best transport too (can't think of anything as flexible as a car in it's abilities). I was just asking if anyone had said it's always cheaper, though preference/can you work/read/sleep on the train will come into it as well obviously.

I simply fell into the trap of responding to a "my single example is best and proves my point" post with a "well duh, there is choice" of my own.
I am normally more savvy but am unwell and it slipped through 🙂
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but I guess most working people travel solo more often than not 😉

Where do you go from for it to be £100 for a 40 mile each way journey for 3 kids and 2 adults? Are you sure you're looking up the tickets right? It sounds very unlikely.

That sounds like a whole lot. For example from Milton Keynes (also in Buckinghamshire) the off peak day return (buy it on the day, leave after about 9:30am, don't come back in the rush hour) price is £49 for that lot, even if you don't have a family railcard. If you have the family railcard (costs about £20 per year to have one, so even one trip saves the money), it is £26.45. That is a 100 mile round trip – making it 26p a mile, which has to be cheaper than driving in and parking.

It is a sad fact about the way railway privatisation has worked that a lot of people who don't use the train often have real trouble working out how the tickets work, so end up paying crazy prices, when there is often a much cheaper ticket (even on the tickets where you just walk up on the day and buy them, rather than booking in advance). Loads of people post up prices saying 'I tried to use the train but I looked online and it was going to cost me a zillion quid', when if they'd just gone to the station and asked it'd cost them a quarter of the price or something.

Joe

Six fookin miles to derby from ours, mrs took the kids on the peasant wagon the other Saturday, just over 10 quid. What a rip off!!!

look up aylesbury to underground 1

We looked at going to Cornwall [from Darlington] in the 1st week in August by train this year

With a family railcard £400 for the 5 of us 😯

Well said Joe

People who don't want to use public transport will always find a justification.

IME for one person it is cheaper and quicker most of the time. You just need a bit of flexibility and a bit of imagination. Train pricing is a shambles however

My girlfriend lives in Newcastle, I live in Manchester, my Parents live in the Lakes, so those are the two journeys I do a lot by train. It used to be about £30 to the lakes and about £35 to Newcastle a few years ago. Then they re-jigged the cheap fares using some calculator that basically removed the cheapest fares from my Journeys. Then a month or two later fares went up by an average of 5% nationally. 11% to Newcastle and 15% to Penrith though. Fares have increased twice since then and they've introduced Peak and off Peak tickets, but they won't tell you when Peak and Off Peak tickets are valid. So now you have the risk of an argument with the ticket inspector if he's in a bad mood, because you're expected to be able to guess whether the train is Peak or not, different stations have different Peak times. Plus with all the ticket checks and automated barriers before they even let you on the platforms these days it feels to me like the people I am paying think I'm a criminal, which I find pretty disrespectful.

Anyway, so I used to get to Newcastle and back for £35-40 only two years ago, travelling anytime of the day, if I want to do that today it is £78.50.

Then you add in the additional journeys. I'm quite fortunate in that I live close to the Metro link, so it's £2.20 into Manchester (Though it rankles that I can't get a return for this journey as they're only valid on the same day), but it's a 10 minute walk, + up to 10 mins waiting as the Metro doesn't run to timetable then it's hit and miss whether you have to change or whether it's quicker to get off and walk at Market Street, so you leave the house over an hour before your train, trek across Manchester, then it's a 25 minute walk at the other end. I'm lucky in that I can leave work early on a Friday, but if I don't I can't get to Newcastle before 10pm as if I book tickets I have to leave plenty of lee-way to make sure I don't miss it.

The cheapest train fare is about £40, booked well in advance and buying 4 singles Manchester – York, York – Newcastle and back. Buying so far ahead isn't convenient and usually extends the journey by an hour to two hours.

Then there are the 'special' journeys. It's the weekend, so they're using the buses instead. For some reason. but the driver doesn't know where the station car park is. Well he does, but he's gone to the wrong one and some nut won't let him stop there for 30s to let people off, so you've missed the connection. Or the driver thinks the quickest way from Piccadilly to Huddersfield is via the Woodhead Pass. Naturally you've missed the last train out of Huddersfield now and no one will take any responsibility for it.

Or it's £37 return in the car, leave when you want, take as much stuff – even your bike – with you. No one treats you like a criminal or makes, the RAC will take responsibility if anything goes wrong.

It's not a difficult decision is it.

I read that article on the £1000 in amazement last night. The chap they asked about it said, no one had actually bought one. Of course they bloody hadn't, it was £1000! For a train journey. Look where you can get to for that on a plane. Train journeys should be capped somewhere in the £30 to £40 region, regardless of distance.

Can anyone explain the train vs plane economics in any sensible way? Flying just seems to work so much better, yet should be an order of magnitude more expensive. But is actually cheaper.

We often take the train to B'ham for shopping. By car the fuel is about £5, parking £3. Train costs us about the same, but both our children are well under 5 so travel free.

If we visit London we'll usuaully drive down. Park for free at Ikea nr Wembley, Tube in. Costs about £30 in fuel + £10 on Tube. Train would cost us as from £50 if we booked. And then your tied to not travelling at specific times etc.

But, given the choice I'd be on the train every time.

We feel out of place on the train though, as we dont have ipods / iphones. 😉

Uplink – darlington / truro return with family railcard £290 -I just checked

TJ – only one of them is under 15

£408.98 was the total [Not including buying the card]

Ah – that will account for the difference.

Family travel on trains is not a good deal.

I've just been looking at trying to get to somewhere 16 miles away by train.

9 pound return and 1 hour 42 minutes each way

Would take me 20 minutes each way in the car, unfortunately I don't have one right now.

Going to London from Menston (just north of Leeds) tomorrow. Bit last minute for a meeting. TWO HUNDRED AND FIFTY TWO POUNDS SEVENTY PENCE. That does include the tube ticket though 😐

(ok – not a family trip, just thought I'd blurt it out cos it's insane)

paul rockliffe,
I hear you there, I'd forgotten how utterly infuriating it is when you have to get a bus instead. The most annoying aspect of which is the lack of care/accountability.
Travelled to Hereford (cheap route admittedly, so a change or two) one leg by coach. Despite being first to the coach (doors not opened) I stupidly waited in line politely while other piled to the front in a mad scramble. Turns out there wasn't enough spaces, so the coaches zoom off leaving 15 of us behind. Cue an hour waiting for taxis to take us to the next station (£30 each) and we've missed two trains by this time. Hours late. Chatted to the taxi driver, he was doing that journey several times every Sunday while engineering works are on. They never hire enough coaches. Despicable, makes me want to wrench people's eyes out with a blunt spoon. Needless to say I only tend to do small local journey's or single mainline journeys by train now. I hate driving too.

I don't get out much.

should mention the taxi was free for us, but the meter was running

look up aylesbury to underground 1

Ah, that's what you're doing wrong, those Underground zone 1 tickets are just traps they put in to catch the unwary. You can't get off-peak ones, so they cost zillions of quid.

It is £32 with family railcard to get to London and back (not as good a deal as Milton Keynes, but a whole lot less than £100)

Then kids under 11 are free on the underground, so nothing for them, kids over 11 cost a pound a day if you get them an oyster card, and for the two adults you should buy oyster cards, it costs £2 a journey on the underground up to a maximum of £5.60 in a day (if you are in Zone 1).

So at most £32 + 12 + 3 (if all your kids are between 11-16) = £46.20 and that gets you a full day of travel round London, not just one trip to zone 1.

Like I said, the fares are insanely complicated, but travel is usually nowhere near as expensive as someone who doesn't use trains will think it is if they look at national rail enquiries website and don't know how to work the off peak fares / London travel etc.

Joe

No, its not £46.20, as then we'd also need to organise (and buy no doubt) railcards and oyster cards plus the childrens' ages are 16, 15 and 11.

Either way, its still cheaper just to drive; even at 40ppm it only comes to £32. And on a sunday you can invariable find free curb-side parking.

As said before, it doesn't work cost wise if you are either paying for more than one, or there are more than one to share the costs.

And increasing the cost of private transport, does not make public transport any cheaper…

organise (and buy no doubt) railcards and oyster cards

Yeah that is true, you buy an oyster card once (ever), for £3 deposit (which you can get back if you never want to go to London again), and you have to buy a railcard once a year ( worth it if you spend more than £60 on train tickets a year) .

Although you could say exactly the same when making the comparison the other way round – if I did the same trip by car, I'd have to organise (and buy no doubt), a car, insurance, MOT, VED, a driving licence etc. By your maths, for me, a single trip driving to London would cost at least £2000. Blimey isn't private transport darned expensive?

It is an annoying fact of using transport in London that it is designed so that tourists (who are assumed to have money to spare), pay tons, to subsidise people who buy sensible tickets, meaning that like you've discovered, unless you get hold of an oyster card, you get completely ripped off.

Joe

Although you could say exactly the same when making the comparison the other way round – if I did the same trip by car, I'd have to organise (and buy no doubt), a car, insurance, MOT, VED, a driving licence etc. By your maths, for me, a single trip driving to London would cost at least £2000. Blimey isn't private transport darned expensive?

possibly for you – but as a company car driver I don't have to organise that lot
I pay a set amount of tax on the benefit so the more I use it the cheaper each journey is

Everyone knows public transport is for the poor and London ****.

Seriously though outside of big cities public transport is often a joke – it would take me two hours to get to work on the bus (three changes) here, or 15 minutes in the car.

The solution is not to price drivers off the road, it is to make public transport faster, safer, more reliable and inexpensive, so people choose to use it. Why is it always the stick and not the carrot in this country?

I largely agree with the OP's proposition… certainly those that make the most noise about cheap public transport seem to be young urban professionals (or those that have remained in that mode)

Regarding public transport pricing, I had to work in Milan a few years ago – excellent public transport system (based on my experience of it). The trams were frequent, easy to use, and what's more, at 1€ per journey, priced to make it the only way to get around.

To answer the OP, single but not friendless. Meeting about 40 of them in Switzerland on Thursday actually. By public transport 😉 Most of my local mates are within 5 miles. Funnily enough I can ride that distance without trouble, work is about the same. My essex mates and social scene is focussed within a 2-3 mile radius so again public transport works for me and is cheaper.

So many people seem to get very defensive about this. I think it's a healthy debate to have because it might become increasingly difficult to have society based around car dependency. Too many people think it's impossible to live without a car (or even share one with the other half) without examining the prospect thoroughly. If someone posts an untruth, that travelling by car is always cheaper than the train, and that's not my experience, I will pipe up.

One thing is true; aside from the financial aspect it will be more convenient by car in most cases unless traffic gets in the way. I take it you've all seen how much busier the roads have got in the last 20 years. Do you want that trend to continue?

Just to go back to uplinks example – how far is that to drive? Best part of 1000 miles round trip? Thats around £400 total – not additional cost to drive even the additional cost must be close to a couple of hundred.

TJ – a 1000 miles will cost me around £100 in fuel
It's a company car so any other costs to me [tax etc] are exactly the same whether I drive it there or leave it at home & take the train

so for my example [for me] public transport is around 400% of the cost of driving there