http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/have-ladder-drops-disappeared-everywhere en-US Mon, 13 Feb 2012 07:20:46 +0000 http://bbpress.org/?v=1.0.2 q http://singletrackworld.com/forum/search.php http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/have-ladder-drops-disappeared-everywhere/page/2#post-501036 Mon, 06 Jul 2009 12:28:17 +0000 Mr Agreeable 501036@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>Richpenny, if you want to learn to ride drops that badly, your local town centre is a much better place to start than an exposed mountain side in Wales. </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/have-ladder-drops-disappeared-everywhere/page/2#post-501020 Mon, 06 Jul 2009 12:24:44 +0000 GaryLake 501020@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>Afan is now littered with warning signs on every slightly technical feature... Not sure if it's coincidental but the signage is all new and everywhere and slightly over the top... </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/have-ladder-drops-disappeared-everywhere/page/2#post-500959 Mon, 06 Jul 2009 12:06:27 +0000 RichPenny 500959@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p><blockquote>In terms of glenp's comments about suing for insurance, I'm sure many of us would consider it when faced with a lifetime of fulltime medical care for ourselves or a loved one.</blockquote></p> <p>Of course you would, but that doesn't make it right, in the same way that the parents of a child killed in an RTA would call for capital punishment every time. </p> <p>Looking at your two examples, am I correct in thinking that the bouncy castle case was unsucessful? I kinda hope so! What next, you take your neighbours kids to the swings and they sue you when their kid falls off. Do you really want to end up like the US? Suing should NEVER be the default response to an accident. In the second case clearly there is negligence, and people learn from it, simple risk assessments stop that. What worries me is that a lot of this stuff will stop being built because people can't afford to defend the legal cases. **** that, I want to be challenged when riding and if I crash it's 99% certain to be my fault. </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/have-ladder-drops-disappeared-everywhere/page/2#post-500954 Mon, 06 Jul 2009 12:01:53 +0000 J0N 500954@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>Mabie darkside is still there. Irode it (most of it) this weekend for the first time. Found it quite difficult and impossible, for me, in places. its seen better days and probably could do with some work to improve the bits the people fall off a lot. Apart for those its holding up well. </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/have-ladder-drops-disappeared-everywhere/page/2#post-500923 Mon, 06 Jul 2009 11:53:20 +0000 redx 500923@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>Response from the FC found here ([http://www.mtb-wales.com/modules.php?op=modload&amp;name=XForum&amp;file=viewthread&amp;fid=16&amp;tid=22455&amp;page=2&amp;orderdate=]) on the MTB-Wales forum: </p> <p>We have removed the drop offs because their history of accidents is placing too much of a burden on FC management time. As landowner we have a duty of care to our visitors and have to report, record and investigate any accidents. The number and severity of accidents at the drop offs has stacked up over time and we have now decided it is too much to bear. Our original risk control measures of improved sunage and particularly the wind sock have helped, but the problem has not gone away. The small drop off is the largest culpret</p> <p>Rather than out good money after bad, we do not intend to replace this feature on the current site of the free ride. It is .too exposed and too far from the car park. (having ridden hard to get there, riders don't turn down the chance of trying the drop offs even if conditions are bad). We are looking at other options to relocate these types of features.elsewhere at Cwmcarn.</p> <p>Overall, our commitment and that of our partners, to Cwmcarn is very high. It is one of the busiest MTB sites in Wales and we are seeking to maintain its high standards. </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/have-ladder-drops-disappeared-everywhere/page/2#post-500894 Mon, 06 Jul 2009 11:46:10 +0000 ChrisL 500894@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p><blockquote>The last long wooded section has now been removed from the black at Glentress.</blockquote></p> <p>If you mean the elevated wooden bit on Double X (the section after the Ewok Village) then that was removed because either it was rotting or it was otherwise in a poor state of repair. The trailbuilders at Glentress definitely intend to replace it and to build something to replace the Ewok Village. </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/have-ladder-drops-disappeared-everywhere/page/2#post-500773 Mon, 06 Jul 2009 11:20:13 +0000 jammer 500773@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>The last long wooded section has now been removed from the black at Glentress.</p> <p>This is disappointing as it was always fun to ride. I doubt this was removed due to being rotten as it looked perfectly fine about a month or so ago.</p> <p>Does anyone have a definitive answer as to why these are being removed from trails. </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/have-ladder-drops-disappeared-everywhere/page/2#post-500729 Mon, 06 Jul 2009 11:07:01 +0000 jedi 500729@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>booter is not made up! <img src="http://singletrackworld.com/forum/my-plugins/bbcode-buttons/default/icon_smile.gif" title=":)" class="bb_smilies" alt=""/> </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/have-ladder-drops-disappeared-everywhere/page/2#post-500696 Mon, 06 Jul 2009 10:59:34 +0000 Munqe-chick 500696@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>spoke to some of the guys building at Chicksands a while back and they said that they had specifications to work to from the F-C, with width/height ratios etc which some of their old stuff didnt comply with.</p> <p>In terms of glenp's comments about suing for insurance, I'm sure many of us would consider it when faced with a lifetime of fulltime medical care for ourselves or a loved one. Last year there was a case of a kid getting accidently kicked in the head on a bouncy castle at a neighbours party. They sued the neighbours for negligence. I'm sure they are all still on speaking terms, but blaming their neighbours, who had liability insurance as part of their household insurance (as many of us do) meant they could potentially fund their seriously injured son's care and enhance the quality of his life. </p> <p>One of the first (successful) court cases for MTBing in a trail centre in the US involved a guy crashing on a bridge in the ski resort. He won, as the bridge was built of longitudinally laid logs, and his wheel dropped between two logs and stuck. IIRC he broke his neck. His argument was that he was prepared for the risks on the trails in the hills, but the bridge was negligently designed and an unneccessary risk. </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/have-ladder-drops-disappeared-everywhere/page/2#post-500452 Mon, 06 Jul 2009 09:38:43 +0000 scruff 500452@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p><em>booter</em></p> <p>made up word ! <img src="http://singletrackworld.com/forum/my-plugins/bbcode-buttons/default/icon_razz.gif" title=":P" class="bb_smilies" alt=""/> </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/have-ladder-drops-disappeared-everywhere/page/2#post-500316 Mon, 06 Jul 2009 08:50:11 +0000 bent_udder 500316@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p><blockquote>THe FC should do what the guy's in whistler do.</p> <p>I.e they mke the entrance to the trail very technical, and if you are not able to ride that then you should not be on the trail. </blockquote></p> <p>That's advice I've heard from Forestry myself. <img src="http://singletrackworld.com/forum/my-plugins/bbcode-buttons/default/icon_smile.gif" title=":)" class="bb_smilies" alt=""/> </p> <p>The catch is that, to a certain extent, Forestry (and any trailbuilder doing it on a sanctioned basis) have to cater to a wide variety of ability. If you build a trail only 10% of keen mountain bikers can ride, you alienate the other 90%. If you build something too tame, then you get complaints too. The compromise we've found that seems to work well is to build trails that are perfectly ridable at slower speeds, but get progressively more difficult to ride fast. If you're constantly on the brakes, then they will have poor flow, as well. Which is why it's always funny to hear Internet Heroes complaining about how crumby they are. <img src="http://singletrackworld.com/forum/my-plugins/bbcode-buttons/default/icon_biggrin.gif" title=":D" class="bb_smilies" alt=""/> </p> <p>Wooden structures are a bit binary - you can either ride them or not. I'm a fairly reasonable rider, but they freak the hell out of me - mostly for the reasons GlenP gives, actually. It's easy to put a back on a jump, so slow / unconfident riders can roll it, as with a ladder drop, but it's a heck of a lot easier to do it with dirt than with wood.</p> <p>I think the sanctioned trailbuilders making stuff with wood (Esher, Chicksands, FC/FE guys and the rest) are bally heroes, not only for going out there and doing it, but for wading through the necessary paperwork and specifications and planning to make it happen. In contrast, building stuff out of earth is a ton easier. </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/have-ladder-drops-disappeared-everywhere/page/2#post-497415 Sat, 04 Jul 2009 10:17:57 +0000 jedi 497415@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>thats not a ladder drop its a booter </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/have-ladder-drops-disappeared-everywhere/page/2#post-497412 Sat, 04 Jul 2009 10:15:35 +0000 st 497412@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybZ7UrKNjfw&amp;feature=PlayList&amp;p=59618722FFBF2EFA&amp;index=3" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybZ7UrKNjfw&amp;feature=PlayList&amp;p=59618722FFBF2EFA&amp;index=3</a> </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/have-ladder-drops-disappeared-everywhere/page/2#post-497367 Sat, 04 Jul 2009 09:33:27 +0000 jedi 497367@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>the beauty of ladder drops are they are a constant platform so learning how to do drops from them are relitively easier than natural drops that can have uneven take offs etc... </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/have-ladder-drops-disappeared-everywhere/page/2#post-496672 Fri, 03 Jul 2009 19:25:15 +0000 RichPenny 496672@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p><blockquote>Just so you know, FC have removed the 3 wooden, northshore style drop off's from the freeride section. This is due to a very, very, very, very, very high number of accidents.</blockquote></p> <p>Makes your last point adequately cynic-al. I couldn't see anything dangerous about them at all. Unless of course you have no idea how to ride them, just like the fella in the vid. FWIW, I'm rubbish at stuff like that, so just rolled the little one. </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/have-ladder-drops-disappeared-everywhere/page/2#post-496288 Fri, 03 Jul 2009 16:17:55 +0000 ART 496288@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>This is on the Cwmdown webpage - sorry can't do the linky thingy... </p> <p><a href="http://www.cwmdown.co.uk/blog/northshore-drops-removed-from-freeride-section" rel="nofollow">http://www.cwmdown.co.uk/blog/northshore-drops-removed-from-freeride-section</a> </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/have-ladder-drops-disappeared-everywhere/page/2#post-496251 Fri, 03 Jul 2009 16:05:28 +0000 ChrisL 496251@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>I'll just add my voice to the chorus - the Ewok Village at Glentress was taken down because it was rotten. Plans are afoot to replace it with something similar, though recently the paperwork required for trail building in FC centres has increased dramatically, so it is maybe not progressing as fast as anyone would like - and "anyone" includes the MTB rangers and trailbuilders, not just regular riders. </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/have-ladder-drops-disappeared-everywhere/page/2#post-496250 Fri, 03 Jul 2009 16:04:44 +0000 cynic-al 496250@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>I for one think it's too easy to be self righteous behind a keyboard. Some examples of lawsuits seem ridiculous (like the dad showing off to his son and the sunglasses one) but I would never say "never" - any one of us could end up like glenp's example. </p> <p>That said it beggars belief how some folk will throw themselves down stuff with no apparent knowledge of their own ability. </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/have-ladder-drops-disappeared-everywhere/page/2#post-496247 Fri, 03 Jul 2009 16:04:16 +0000 kimbers 496247@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>the drop offs in question were wide sturdy and grippy and not very high off the ground at all infact </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/have-ladder-drops-disappeared-everywhere/page/2#post-496244 Fri, 03 Jul 2009 16:02:59 +0000 nasher 496244@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>THe FC should do what the guy's in whistler do.</p> <p>I.e they mke the entrance to the trail very technical, and if you are not able to ride that then you should not be on the trail. </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/have-ladder-drops-disappeared-everywhere/page/2#post-496242 Fri, 03 Jul 2009 16:00:45 +0000 oldagedpredator 496242@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>I dont really do wood work - riding or building - talking to someone who does a couple of months back about this type of thing.</p> <p>Their view was the broad area of northshore was probably due some fairly hefty review of construction standards. Changes mainly in terms standards and dimensions of timber used for construction.<br /> Sounded like official sanctioned woodwork would all be machined and treated - no more natural and much more boardwalk and much much chunkier. Minimun dimensions set for different parts of the structure depending ond loadings and stresses. It also sounded like directives covering working from height etc could have an impact on gantry / tall structures. </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/have-ladder-drops-disappeared-everywhere/page/2#post-496197 Fri, 03 Jul 2009 15:41:24 +0000 scruff 496197@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>Afternoon William ! </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/have-ladder-drops-disappeared-everywhere/page/2#post-496147 Fri, 03 Jul 2009 15:22:18 +0000 walleater 496147@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>Good morning Scruff <img src="http://singletrackworld.com/forum/my-plugins/bbcode-buttons/default/icon_wink.gif" title=":wink:" class="bb_smilies" alt=""/> </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/have-ladder-drops-disappeared-everywhere/page/2#post-496140 Fri, 03 Jul 2009 15:18:58 +0000 Mr Agreeable 496140@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>Duty of care is no different for minors, but I can imagine that parents of hurt children are a bit more litigious than your average adult. </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/have-ladder-drops-disappeared-everywhere/page/2#post-496126 Fri, 03 Jul 2009 15:15:43 +0000 richc 496126@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p><blockquote>The thing is you can only sue successfully if the landowner was negligent - and that is not easy to do - for example in the case that richc posted above there would be no possibility of a claim</blockquote></p> <p>Things is as others have said, the landowners don't want the hassle of having to deal with the lawyers and courts, so its easier to take anything down that will obviously hurt you if you mess it up.</p> <p>Also I believe its a little different with regards to minors as well. </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/have-ladder-drops-disappeared-everywhere/page/2#post-496118 Fri, 03 Jul 2009 15:12:58 +0000 glenp 496118@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>Scruff - not trolling at all. I feel the same as you - except I'm not delusional about how much my life outlook would change if something terrible did happen. Quite right that there has to be some negligence for the action to succeed, but you would go as low as you needed to if you were desperate enough. </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/have-ladder-drops-disappeared-everywhere/page/2#post-496097 Fri, 03 Jul 2009 15:04:44 +0000 TandemJeremy 496097@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>The thing is you can only sue successfully if the landowner was negligent - and that is not easy to do - for example in the case that richc posted above there would be no possibility of a claim as there was no negliegence on behalf of the landowner.</p> <p>The sorts of things that could be negligent would be structures collapsing under you, big drops round blind corners without warning signs and so on.</p> <p>None of the trailcentres I have ridden have any possibility of the landowner being negligent in any way. Trails are marked and graded and structures built to recognised standards and maintained. </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/have-ladder-drops-disappeared-everywhere/page/2#post-496082 Fri, 03 Jul 2009 14:59:43 +0000 scruff 496082@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>glenP- troll?</p> <p>(bite- yes it does, you do something dangerous and take responsibility for yourself). </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/have-ladder-drops-disappeared-everywhere/page/2#post-496046 Fri, 03 Jul 2009 14:46:13 +0000 glenp 496046@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>For anyone that thinks it is bit depressing that the landowner gets sued just imagine yourself in the same situation. You're paralysed, your life is finished, you have no insurance and someone is going to have to look after you for the next 50 years - the land owner is insured and you are claiming on their insurance for costs that you could never meet in any other way. Doesn't sound so silly when you put it like that. </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/have-ladder-drops-disappeared-everywhere/page/2#post-496019 Fri, 03 Jul 2009 14:36:19 +0000 crotchrocket 496019@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>i bet that's a REALLY small bike leant against it too. </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/have-ladder-drops-disappeared-everywhere/page/2#post-495938 Fri, 03 Jul 2009 14:11:01 +0000 st 495938@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>grumm, it's just behind the bush, that picture is deceptive (in every way except the jump's size) </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/have-ladder-drops-disappeared-everywhere/page/2#post-495845 Fri, 03 Jul 2009 13:40:46 +0000 richc 495845@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>I remember watching some kids sessioning the ones at Cwmcarn with no helmets, on battered supermarket bikes riding them to destruction. One of them, had snapped his chain so was doing it chainless with a partially taco-ed rear wheel and after each drop the bike was getting more and more knackered, and he was seeing how long it would take to snap it. Which is fair enough, however without helmet/gloves or any form of protection it seemed a bit of a stupid thing to do, but he was ignoring the adults warning him that he was going to really hurt himself as he knew better <img src="http://singletrackworld.com/forum/my-plugins/bbcode-buttons/default/icon_neutral.gif" title=":|" class="bb_smilies" alt=""/> </p> <p>At that point I kinda guessed the drops days were numbered, as it was inevitable that someone was going to really hurt themselves, and it was unlikely to be little tarquin/jimmay/timmays fault but the evil FC for allowing the structures to exist. </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/have-ladder-drops-disappeared-everywhere/page/2#post-495823 Fri, 03 Jul 2009 13:29:30 +0000 grumm 495823@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>Where's the landing for that one in Cannock? Looks like you would land in that bush! </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/have-ladder-drops-disappeared-everywhere/page/2#post-495808 Fri, 03 Jul 2009 13:21:36 +0000 kimbers 495808@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>thats a very depressing story about the dad trying to sue the FC</p> <p>but thats our modern society i guess </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/have-ladder-drops-disappeared-everywhere/page/2#post-495734 Fri, 03 Jul 2009 12:55:02 +0000 st 495734@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>Fingers crossed we've not had any issues with our officially built drops on Cannock Chase, the one Scruff has shown above is by far the biggest we have there and it isn't wonky as that picture appears to show it. </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/have-ladder-drops-disappeared-everywhere/page/2#post-495608 Fri, 03 Jul 2009 12:25:59 +0000 Mr Agreeable 495608@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>Stumpyjon, that may well be true, but it doesn't mean it was the FC's rationale for removing them. </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/have-ladder-drops-disappeared-everywhere/page/2#post-495529 Fri, 03 Jul 2009 12:10:55 +0000 stevomcd 495529@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>There were never any ladder drops at the Ewok village anyway. I think there was maybe one exit point that you had to lift the front wheel a wee bit, but I'm almost sure it was all rollable. </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/have-ladder-drops-disappeared-everywhere/page/2#post-495520 Fri, 03 Jul 2009 12:09:12 +0000 stumpyjon 495520@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>As I understand it (from someone posting on another forum who spoke directly to people involved, so it's sort of got some provenance) the ladder drops at Cwmcarn were removed after a lad broke his next or some similar serious accident on them. The whole area was refurbished not long before so the drops weren't structurally unsafe. The guy posting this is local to Cwmcarn and said he met the injured lads dad in the Freeride area, the Dad started asking questions about the drops and then explained what had happened to his son and then went on to say he was planning to sue the FC at which point to OP clammed up and rode off.</p> <p>Could all be tinternet myth but the post o the other forum seemed pretty credible, judge for yourself <a href="http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=12624288&amp;highlight=cwmcarn+ladder+drops">here</a>. </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/have-ladder-drops-disappeared-everywhere/page/2#post-495425 Fri, 03 Jul 2009 11:45:11 +0000 scruff 495425@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p>Plenty of ladder drops over Cannock Chase DH area, all FC approved. Some are fkign bad ass muthaz, esp on Walleater plus some new ones built on Balboa. Theyz iz notz 4 jeyboyz.</p> <p>Part of 'Walleater' named after the famous cock svcking ex-pat.<br /> <img src="http://www.racersguild.co.uk/Cannock/uploaded_images/Walleater_Top_Half-798006.jpg"> </p> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/have-ladder-drops-disappeared-everywhere/page/2#post-495376 Fri, 03 Jul 2009 11:32:12 +0000 Futureboy 495376@http://singletrackworld.com/forum/ <p><blockquote>FFS - this is nowt to do with "health and safety" There are still ladder drops on the freeride at GT and IIRC thr timber features at ewoc village are being rebuilt as they were rotting away.</p> <p>H&amp;S assessments for stuff like this is merely about minimisiug risk not eliminating it - so the stuff needs to be well built and sturdy and to have decent landings. Then its fine with a warning sign to say - "dangerous ladder drop - experienced riders only" like you see all over the FC trail centres</blockquote></p> <p>Well said that man! </p> <p>Futureboy (HSE Advisor) </p>