Yesterday i went on a group ride. One guy was on an electric bike.

I think whether e-bike use or misuse is an issue is a moot point – it’s the perception of e-bikes (pedelecs or whatever) that’s the issue. They are motorised, they are not completely human powered. Being human powered has been a critical aspect of MTB access arguments worldwide. If e-bikes had been around when many of these arguments were taking place in the states then lots of access would never have happened.

We have access rights here, but they won’t be extended if e-bikes are in the mix (that’s my opinion). They could completely scupper bridleway upgrades or any opportunity to widen bike access in the rights of way network (or open countryside). I can see the benefits they can bring to some people, particularly in just getting people on a bike, or commuting, or whatever. But I really do believe they are a threat to improved bike access in the countryside in England and Wales.

http://www.vitalmtb.com/news/news/Moab-Bans-Electric-Bikes-on-Mountain-Bike-Trails,834

How long before we see e-bike bans in the Highlands?

couldn’t care less about e-bikes, they make as much difference to me as someone riding a DH bike at inners while I’m on my crapy old ghost.

I think whether e-bike use or misuse is an issue is a moot point – it’s the perception of e-bikes

I don’t think its moot at all, it’s misuse that is the major concern, and if we as a biking community can show that we are also concerned and tackling misuse then it strengthens our position against those that would paint us in a bad light. If we are perceived to be having sensible discussion and perceived to be tackling the things that concern our opponents (right word? maybe not) then that does nothing but elevate us.

Are they really a threat to human only powered access though?

I don’t think they will cause existing legal access to be removed, too difficult from a legal and perceptive standpoint, you can’t remove access for a legitimate existing userbase due to another one can you?

And if there are actual compelling arguments (with evidence) that they need to be treated differently to human only power either for reasons of speed, erosion, other, then isn’t it relatively trivial to exclude ‘anything with a motor’ when legislating for access rights on land(private or public)?

How long before we see e-bike bans in the Highlands?

Who knows, but doesn’t that kinda scupper your original point a bit? If eBikes were banned then that’ll be specifically because they have recognised them as different to human only power, which strengthens your case if there is ever an argument about extending rights for human power as the distinction will have already been made that you are not ‘one of them’ so to speak.

RE: Moab ban, You need to be careful with comparison to the US against here anyway as the laws and access is very different, they already have many restrictive access rules for specific locations and seasons than we do.

*** BTW ***

I’m not disagreeing with you, as the access thing worries me too, I’d just like to see more (sensible) discussion about it with a bit less of the what-iffing and scaremongering that seems to be going around.

It needs to be addressed properly really, either there is compelling reason to treat them differently or there isn’t. That needs to be established based on fact and evidence, not perception.

The access rights are then rooted in that differentiation/lack of it and perception is dealt with by tackling behaviour.

less lazy than staying at home on the sofa though eh?

might as well add a tv and remote whilst they get an armchair ride to the top

might as well add a tv and remote whilst they get an armchair ride to the top

in the bus? 😛

It’s definitely not a simple area – I can see that the Moab ban would likely have had little opposition from existing mountain bikers, perhaps because they are sensitive the the idea that they may get lumped in with them, and (as you say) their legal access is definitely more fragile than ours is.

Whether it’s a ban on ebikes or a ban on bikes because of ebikes, neither seem to be a situation that would improve access. There’s probably three mechanisms that could enforcee ebike bans – local byelaws, TROs and (significantly for trail centre use) the removal of permissive access (eg on FC land). I don’t want to see any one banned from doing anything, but, to be brutally honest, I’d rather cut the ebikes loose now than risk any access restrictions (or lack of development) for mountain bikers in general in the future.

I don’t think they will cause existing legal access to be removed, too difficult from a legal and perceptive standpoint, you can’t remove access for a legitimate existing userbase due to another one can you?

Tell that to the 4×4 and trail bike crowd. It’s usually wrapped up in erosion and maintenance, but the lobbying from other user groups to exclude those users is vociferous and effective.

They’re all just lazy bastards, watch a keyring, they always let one in (presumably to be ‘inclusive diversity yogurt weavers – political correctness gone mad) and the buggers never even finish. Disgraceful.

Still time to edit that to keirin – it doens’t make sense otherwise 🙂

I don’t think they will cause existing legal access to be removed, too difficult from a legal and perceptive standpoint, you can’t remove access for a legitimate existing userbase due to another one can you

Tell that to the 4×4 and trail bike crowd. It’s usually wrapped up in erosion and maintenance, but the lobbying from other user groups to exclude those users is vociferous and effective.

Slight mis-understanding or mis-explaining on my part, I didn’t mean another group (ie: ramblists) getting bikes banned, I meant, could you see human powered bike (one userbase) access being removed due to eBikes (the other userbase)?

4×4 access was removed due to the impact of 4×4 access, not the impact of another group.

With the 4×4 analogy it would be a case of ‘could you ban trail bikes due to 4×4 use’, the answer on the face of it is yes if they classed legally the same, but if they’re not then it would be a no, but you can ban them for the same reasons, ie: erosion etc, but if you carry that back over to eBikes you’d have to demonstrate an actual difference between human and assisted impact there.

ie: if you could demonstrate that eBikes caused significantly different enough erosion problems to human bikes to consider banning them (eBikes) specifically then you’ve shot yourselves in the foot for banning human power as you’ve just demonstrably split them, so would be harder to take the human access away on the same arguments.

In the same vein if you could demonstrate that eBikes are no different to human powered then that also helps your access arguments if anyone tries to single out the use of eBikes as a negative as you as you’d be able to clearly demonstrate they are no different in terms of impact and there is already existing access.

I can certainly see the possibility of rules being put in place on FC land, banning eBikes from specific trails maybe, but again, that’ll probably have to come down to some specific reason, ie: speed, damage etc. Which brings us full circle back to the fact you’d need to base that on evidence, and I don’t think there’s been any sufficiently rigorous research yet into that side of things.

to be brutally honest, I’d rather cut the ebikes loose now than risk any access restrictions (or lack of development) for mountain bikers in general in the future.

I see where you’re coming from but I think that’s a bit short sighted, what we need to do is establish properly if there is any reason to treat them differently first.

Here you are willing to ‘cut them loose’ as you put it based on a fear, that’s exactly the kind of attitude that we’re fighting with other user groups, fear and speculation impacting policies and decisions.

We need to address the fears, look at he facts, tackle the behaviour that causes friction and share responsibly, alter the perception with positive behaviour and action rather than trying to disassociate ourselves with another very similar group, that’s exactly the kind of thing that leads to small marginalised user groups with no voice!

Even if it does turn out that some kind of split access rules are laid down for human only vs assisted that doesn’t mean we can’t work together responsibly as similar groups as there will be a lot of crossover.

I’d rather we got together now in that respect than split and fight amongst ourselves!

here’s a thought pickle for you:

Say you’re considering banning eBikes from trail X, would you be allowed to ride one on it with the assist turned off?

yes/no?

what about if the assist is on really really really low?

yes/no?

what about turned on a bit more for a rider with limited strength so that overall output at the wheel is still < than normal fit rider?

yes/no?

would you then have to ban really strong riders from the same trail?

To simplify it, no bikes with motors. Sorted

It does seem to me that regardless of the opinion you might have of ebikes you should be embracing them and the people that come with them whilst they’re legal. (of that status changes maybe get back on your high horse)
More people means a stronger voice, if it weren’t for all the “I’m not one of them” attitudes being adopted years ago by walkers not wanting to share with horsey folk and then neither wanting to share with mtbs 4×4 etc we’d all be a lot better off.

If for instance the ramblers’ association had spent its time campaigning for free access as opposed to free access for walkers, and encouraged all users half the closed-because-of-lack-of-use RoWs would still be about and we’d probably have a huge amount more access for eveveryone. Instead the refusal to share (what’s not theirs) at least takes time but likely outcome too from a bigger goal of opening up the country.

This squabbling and subdivision does nothing to help anyone except those who want you off their land.

ebikes = horrible, hateful things and a spawn of satan

I usually ride alone, or with 1 or 2 others.

Each time he was behind me i kept thinking i had a leaf or twig caught between my tyre/frame, but no, it was the whirr of his Bosch motor.

He was in jeans & jumper, long trousers, not breaking a sweat (unlike me).

Is this the future

Did you use his QR axles to nail his hands to a nearby tree, then short the ebike battery to light a fire underneath his writhing body in true 15th century witch-burning Stylee.

Fekin e-bikers, huh!!

hora – Member
e-bikes are ACE. They will really muck with the strava cheaters. All those who go onto leader boards simply to ‘win’ a segment. I’m convinced most are upto something so it’ll be an arms race who can cheat even more…then the proper strava users can use it for what is intended for IMO.

Qwerty- still a dull topic mate.

Sounds a lot like Lance Armstrong’s rationale…

This squabbling and subdivision does nothing to help anyone except those who want you off their land.

This an well said

Why should I care what bike someone else rides

The “it’s cheating” argument is very similar sounding to the one uses by those grumpy old hardtail purists about full suss bikes. “I can ride it without a rear shock/full face/knee pads/motor etc etc”.

It’s a futile and narrow minded argument. Not everyone rides to enjoy suffering. Not everyone’s health or motivation to ride is the same.

If someone can afford an e-bike and it gets them out on a bike when they wouldn’t previously have done, that’s great by me. People off the sofa, money into the bike industry – win/win. The reason behind them opting for an e-bike over a normal bike is wholly irrelevant.

Should motorcyclists be banned? That’s much easier than cycling.

How long before we see e-bike bans in the Highlands

Hopefully ages as the existing requirement for bicycle users and pedal assist e-bikes are in this category, is based on responsible usage… Outside of that , laws exist and there are restrictions for other users….

There is the hum of the motor I agree, but talk to me about hope hubs on freewheel or long downhills…. Fatbike tyres on Tarmac.. It’s just another noise and if your threatened by that …..well I think you do need to work through that one.

I

Are you all saying my mate in his early 50s with knackered hips should give up biking the trails he has enjoyed for years?
Are you saying that I, into my 60s should give up riding trails that I have ridden for 30 odd years due to various old age aches’n pains rather than buy an ebike?

If only I had stuck in at school I could construct an appropriate response.

I will leave with the only response I can currently think off without resorting to using as many swear filter words as I can muster;
What a load of bumptious Prats………

Thank your lucky stars. I got passed by this a couple of years back…..

The medical argument I can understand however if you are not well enough to ride up hill surely you should ask yourself-are you well enough to ride down it?

The medical argument I can understand however if you are not well enough to ride up hill surely you should ask yourself-are you well enough to ride down it?

Thats what I was thinking, I mean the excitement/excessive grinning? could bring a heart attack on shirley?

Look at this bloke on an Ebike, smiling,

Reeth ride 14.07.12 003 by jimmyg352[/url], on Flickr

I was holding back from voicing an opinion on this thread as I imagine I’d get an instant lifetime ban for my response to a few of the posts above but I see trekster has got in with a suitable response, well done trekster…I doff my cap to you, although I will chance my luck with you greeting bunch of insufferable ego driven whiney **** cockbags.

I ventured out for a ride to my mates at the weekend on the tripster, it’s only 28 miles away and ten years ago I used to comfortably manage this ride in around 90 minutes, these days thanks to an old spinal injury that is coming back to destroy my ability to turn the cranks at any slight rise in the road it took me 6.5 hours to do the 28 miles, most of that was in my lowest gear of 28×36 and my average speed was 4mph or thereabouts, I barely have the leg muscle strength to support my own body weight to stand and move about at work without tripping over my own feet so I can see an ebike in my future as that will enable me to continue cycling, whether or not the stw cognescenti deem my or any others use of an ebike for whatever reason on any trail is utterly pathetic however you frame your disapproval.

Whether you are fully mobile and fit or somewhat compromised in your ability to cycle matters not one jot, if you are upset that someone else is not suffering as much as you on a bike then you may need to take time out and have a word with yourself.

ie: if you could demonstrate that eBikes caused significantly different enough erosion problems to human bikes to consider banning them (eBikes) specifically then you’ve shot yourselves in the foot for banning human power as you’ve just demonstrably split them, so would be harder to take the human access away on the same arguments.

The trouble is that there is no legal distinction between purely human powered bicycles and e-bikes. If it was demonstrated that e-bikes did cause a problem (erosion or something else) significant enough to ban them, that could result in a ban for all bicycles given that’s the only way to ban e-bikes. The law does not allow for the possibility of banning one without banning the other.

aracer – Member

If it was demonstrated that e-bikes did cause a problem (erosion or something else) significant enough to ban them, that could result in a ban for all bicycles given that’s the only way to ban e-bikes. The law does not allow for the possibility of banning one without banning the other.

Because of course, laws can’t be changed or written

This is one which comes down from the EU – I think the UK would have a great deal of trouble unilaterally revoking it.

Ebikes are great and have a place. As is often the case, Germany is way ahead of us in this and they make up a much higher percentage of total bike sales and the rules are clear on speed and use.
I personally would not choose to use one on a group MTB or road ride as it defeats the point for me. But I would not object if others chose/needed to ride an ebike as part of a group ride.
For commuting and replacing short local trips in the car ebikes are amazing. I have a Kalkhoff fitted with two big Ortlieb panniers. I can fill the panniers with shopping and still cycle round hilly Leeds at a respectable speed. If I want to nip up to the allotment (3 miles away) it’s quicker to use the ebike than a normal bike, and preferable to driving.
The bikes like Kalkhoff are a completely different class of bike and are true car replacement bikes: enough speed for most trips, enclosed chain, full muduards, integrated and bright lighting and powerful brakes.
I am sure that many of the naysayers on here would have been equally at home 100 years ago wingeing about the introduction of the freewheel or those new fangled multi gear derailler bikes.

The German situation will be interesting to watch, although 100 years ago most cyclists were wingeing about the introduction of the car, and we can see where that ended up 😉

Amedias – you’re far too reasonable 😉

I hope you’re right about evidence leading the debate on this, but I fear that in most access forums the debate is heavily tinged with prejudice and self-preservation. Cross-user agreement/alignment is rare, although I think we’re seeing more of it, and where one user group is seen as an outside (ie the motorised crowd) then they can get ganged up on very quickly. So perception of MTBers by other user groups is key, and how we handle ebikes in relation to this is very important.

Cutting them loose is what my worried brain says, but I know that’s not really how I want MTBers to behave to ebike users, the vast majority of which (at the moment) are just MTBers on a different sort of machine. But as a group engaged in access debate we need to decide how they fit in and we can’t just pretend they’re “just another sort of mountain bike”, as that’s not going to wash with the nimbyer end of our fellow countryside users.

Two wheels good! Doesn’t matter if they’re big, small, fat, thin, carbon, alloy, human powered or with an engine (electric or petrol). The joy and freedom of being on something with two wheels doesn’t change. You may get a rush from pedaling up a big hill that you wont get from a powered bike, but you don’t get the equally satisfying rush from firing a motorbike through and out of a corner on a bicycle. E bikes sit somewhere in the middle but i’m sure they still provide the freedom to explore with the wind in your hair and give joy to the rider. The attitude of some of you stinks tbh, so let me say it again in the hope that you geddit…Two wheels good!

aracer – Member

This is one which comes down from the EU

UK access laws come from the EU?

The whole point of cycling is its powered by you fit a motor and battery it becomes something else .They have a place and if it takes a car off the road then good ,but it`s not really cycling

The trouble is that there is no legal distinction between purely human powered bicycles and e-bikes. If it was demonstrated that e-bikes did cause a problem (erosion or something else) significant enough to ban them, that could result in a ban for all bicycles given that’s the only way to ban e-bikes. The law does not allow for the possibility of banning one without banning the other.

That was kind of my point aracer, we are in a position at the moment where they are classed the same, while that is the case it’s hard to take action against the large majority (human power) based on potential problems with a minority. If it were shown that they are substantially different in terms of impact then that would throw the classification into question, and you couldn’t just then ban the human power as you’d have shot yourself in the foot by showing they are different, and legislation would have to be reviewed, and with that distinction now identified it would again be hard to take action against human powered bikes if you’d agreed they are not the same.

Amedias – you’re far too reasonable

Guilty as charged! I tend to come across overly reasonable online at times because I have the benefit of being able to think about what I type!

What I type is truely what I think though, even if there is a hint* of optimism in there, but I do have major concerns about whether we do as a group have the maturity to work together with other users :-S

I 100% agree with you that there needs to be more thought and discussion about it, and you’re right that it is very much about perception, the nice thing about that is that we can have an impact on that as perceptions can be altered through action <– optimism coming in again!

I also think that perhaps the offroad access thing is being blown a little out of proportion, I think that offroad assisted bikes will always remain in a minority for the very reasons most of us choose to ride offroad will mean that they mostly remain the reserve of those that were already cyclists but for whatever reason now want or need to use them. I doubt we will see masses of normal MTB’ers suddenly gettingt hem ‘because it’s easier’, and we wont see thousands of couch potatos suddenly finding a lust for countryside E-epics either. In town yes, maybe even on green grade family trails at facilitated locations, but not out in the wild, they will probably still be quite rare, and hopefully limited to those that already know how to behave properly to other users.

*may in fact be fricking large dollop of

F-A-T

E-B-R-A-P-P

UK access laws come from the EU?

Where did I suggest that?

Yesterday I watched a vid of two motorcrossers on the tightest/skinniest swooping/dropping singletrack that someone had liked on bookface- I didn’t know whether to be angry or saddened that using engine braking for most of the clip was considered to be cool for the enduro site. I’ll try and find it.

Edit – the trail is probably miles from ride-to but still. I’d LOVE to ride this trail- it gets ace towards the end too

http://www.enduro21.com/index.php/component/k2/item/2752-onboard-%E2%80%93-my-endless-trail

When you said

aracer – Member

This is one which comes down from the EU – I think the UK would have a great deal of trouble unilaterally revoking it.

It’s a matter of UK access law whether or not e-bikes are allowed on trails.

http://cyclingtips.com.au/2015/04/hidden-motors-for-road-bikes-exist-heres-how-they-work/

Saving for this, gonna get me some KOMZ!!

I am sure that many of the naysayers on here would have been equally at home 100 years ago wingeing about the introduction of the freewheel or those new fangled multi gear derailler bikes.

this is such commonly trotted out cliché. just because someone doesn’t like something new doesn’t mean they’re anti-progression. what about people who didn’t like flex-stems or dual-wheel drive or solid wheels – were they so wrong?