WWSTD do? Tradesman dispute

Our house sprang a bit of a leak from the roof at the weekend and it needed fixing quickly. I got someone around to look at it and they quoted for work based on stripping back two rows of tiles on two sides of a gully then making good by repointing with sand and cement (and they had to allow for replacing any broken tiles) and said it would take two full days. They gave the usual spiel about how they would do a great job, others would only patch it up etc etc. They quoted £2,400 which I accepted (as it really needed doing urgently) and, tbf, they were quick to come around and get the work done (and submit the invoice). However, they didn’t do the work as described – rather than taking off the two rows of tiles, on one side they just lifted up and pushed the mix under and re-seated the tiles (which took around 4-5 hours). Then they came back the next day and did the second side and completed the work in around 1-2 hours so clearly not as well done. I had a brief conversation on the phone yesterday and he just said ‘but we’ve done a good job’ however, I am questioning why they charged the full £2,400 (which I accept was steep in the first place, but I needed it doing quickly) when they didn’t actually do the work they said they would do and completed it all in half the time.

He is coming around this afternoon to discuss it and I can see that things might get a bit confrontational – do I back down and just pay it and move on (given that he knows where I live) or try to push for some kind of compromise on the bill?

I %£*&ing hate situations like this.

He’s charged £2400 for less than 7 hours work and a bit of cement. I think thats a pretty valid argument you have. Was there scaffold to put up? Anything else other than just (I assume) one bloke and a bag of cement/mortar?

Did they fix the leak?

No scaffold put up, but two of them (one labouring).

Did they fix the leak?

It’s not leaked yet, but it’s not rained either. But that isn’t the point – he said he was charging for ‘a proper job’ but then only patched it up.

This tends to be the problem with roofers who are available immediately. Is there any way you can test the fix with a hose before they turn up, it’s worth knowing how much of a bodge it is.

This tends to be the problem with roofers who are available immediately.

In this day and age, its all trades. Good tradesmen tend to be booked up. Bad tradesmen aren’t.

7 hours work – plus prep and quote etc. say 10 hours?

7 hours work for 2 men plus 3 for 1 man.

Round our way, trades charge about £40 – £45 an hour.

So about £700.

You could allow a premium for “emergency” call out, maybe 50% or even 100%.

i would have a discussion that the scope of work discussed was not carried out.

I would also contact Trading Standards, he might have a bit of history?

Do you have a hammer?

Do you have frozen sauages?

Does he have a lawn?

You know what to do.

i think you have been had if you pay. i wouldnt pay.

i would get another roofer to come and see if he will give you a quote for the work that has been done.

a reputable firm will do this. if the quote is much less i would pay that amount .

I hate this, so many cowboys trying it on.  The fact you accepted the original piss take quote means he thinks you are either a, desperate, or b and idiot.  Given he is clearly the sort to try and take advantage of others I suspect your convo isn’t going to be amicable.  I’d also be worried about the quality of work if it is how you described.

Are you likely to ever want to work with this guy again?  I had a dispute with a plumber once (who charged £1k to replace a soil stack in less than a day and I had agreed day rate not fixed price)  In the end I paid as he was mates with all the other contractors I was using and I didn’t want them to all suddenly disappear off the job

He probably has form on overcharging / underdelivering so he will be experienced in having ‘discussions’ about his work, whereas you wont.  Don’t get wound up, maybe have your wife there, and tell her if you start getting worked up to step in (hand on the shoulder or something to help bring you back to being polite and firm)

I’d probably say I’d pay a grand, which is still a piss taking amount for a few hours work, and cement.  If he didn’t accept I’d say lets take it to court.  Take copious amount of photos.  Be prepared that he may go up the ladder and ‘remove’ the work he has done, so have a plan for what you do in that case  ie.  be ready to get back up a ladder and slap in some cement yourself, not push him off!  If he does more damage then he is liable for that (hence the photos)

Cowboys, (and conversely  just trying to get good contractors to turn up) is why I end up DIYing pretty much everything these days

I’d be more concerned about the standard of the work, haven’t a clue what you’ve had done, as i can’t work it out in my head why you’d take two rows off  either side of a gully, as gullies tend to run top to bottom on roofs, are flashed usually and require a better type of cement to waterproof appropriately, so ‘sliding the tiles’ and ramming mix in doesn’t sound the greatest to reproof the damaged area?!

. I had a brief conversation on the phone yesterday and he just said ‘but we’ve done a good job’ however, I am questioning why they charged the full £2,400

My position would be his initial assessment of the work required was wrong – not necessarily a bad assessment if it was in good faith, time was of the essence and you needed a quick and effective solution  – if he viewed it – thought it required course of action- which he detailed –  then once they commenced discovered less work was required then he should bill you for less work it would seem (with in reason as they can’t necessarily sell the time thats been saved to someone else.)

If once they got started the saw there was a better course of action they should have agreed the changes with you. By the same measure if they’d discovered that in fact much more work was required to make an effective repair the wouid have discussed that too.

The job done may well be good, but its not the job he said he needed to do, so they should have explained what they were doing differently and why.

The question is, in terms of how upset you want to get – whats the actually difference in outcome (and thats difficult to see as the customer rather than the person who did the work).

Will the repair, as done, be a good a long term solution as the repair that was predicted? If its the same long term outcome, it just turned out there was a quicker, more efficient way to make the repair then its no loss to you but its a win for him. At worst you’re just jealous that he got to go home early.

If the repair as done gives less longevity than the one quoted then that definitely is loss to you.

If either course of action – the one he described or the one he did – were poor practice then thats something else again.

Now that there less time pressure (presuming the repair is at least good for now) maybe its worth having the work viewed by a third party to see if the work done was appropriate.

I had a similar line from a greedy plasterer last year.

“But I’ve done a good job.”

“Yeah, and I’m happy to pay a fair price for it.”

I actually asked about day rates on here and paid him the upper end of that.

I’m not saying you are wrong, but couple of point to consider:

– you seem to have watched the work in progress but not intervened until it was complete.  If you were unhappy about the quality of work or deviation from scope that seems unhelpful.

– if the bodge is a good bodge, might it be better than him coming back to fix it properly, but badly?  I think if you are not happy with the quality of work it’s perfectly reasonable for him to come back “next week” to put it right.  How certain are you that after that you will be in a better place?

you need to decide what you actually want:

– the work done as agreed; fair enough but a roofer who says one thing then cuts corners is going to be a bit of nightmare to manage.  He’ll grudge coming back to do more work.

– the price reduced; he’ll feel you agreed a price then reneged on the deal.  What did the quote say – eg if they had spent three days were you paying extra?  I assume the quote was in writing.  Are you going to have a nagging doubt that it’s just waiting to go wrong?

Personally, a decent compromise might be that he guarantees that repair and any leak coming from the gully or slates two rows either side of it for 12 months.  He will fix any leak within 14 days of being notified.   If he’s willing to say that (in writing) he trusts the repair (or will be untraceable).

in my experience some roofers are some of the dodgiest trades around.  I’m not sure if it comes from the working at height but unless they are clearly a professional outfit (we’ll known reputation, liveried vans, advertise in local free mag etc) then I’d probably end up paying.

I would cut all contact other than in writing (email, WhatsApp is fine, just needs to be written down). If I was unhappy with the work I would refuse to pay a penny until they came back and did what was agreed. If the work seems to fix the problem then I’d make a reasonable offer. If they insist on you paying the original quote value then tell them to put it through the small claims court.

The law is on your side. The fact that so many people just let them get away with this sort of thing is why it’s so rife.

Did you get a quote or an estimate? If it’s a quote and it was detailed enough to specify what they were going to do I tihnk you have a good case. If you have an estimate, then absolutely challenge it. If you have a quote that just says “fix gullys” or something then arguably he’s done that, or at least you have a weaker argument.

Same as everyone else. Keep it all in writing, say you’re willing to pay for the work done, but the agreed quote was for additional/more comprehensive work which hasn’t been completed.  Take loads of photos and if you’re meeting, maybe use the voice recorder on your phone to record the conversation?  He might admit he’s not done a good job but demand payment anyway.

Google his name / see if he’s on Checkatrade etc and read reviews of the company.

If he’s got good reviews then you have a bit of leverage by potentially leaving a bad review.

If he’s got bad reviews then use this in correspondence / legal action, stating that he has a history of doing this.

The silly thing is – if he’d have said ‘yeah, it wasn’t as big a job as I first feared and took much less time, here’s a smaller bill’, I would have had them back as I am about to get the soffits and fascias done, along with removing a load of mock Tudor wood panelling so he could have got a much bigger job.

The silly thing is – if he’d have said ‘yeah, it wasn’t as big a job as I first feared and took much less time, here’s a smaller bill’, I would have had them back as I am about to get the soffits and fascias done, along with removing a load of mock Tudor wood panelling so he could have got a much bigger job.

Okay – that’s just dumb.  His original quote was extortionate.  You would have had to confront him and get him to agree to reduce his price (he didn’t offer) and in this situation, you’d have him back?

Really? In this hypothetical scenario, He tried to fleece you twice and only fessed up when confronted and you’d have had him back?  REALLY?!

He’s charged £2400 for less than 7 hours work and a bit of cement.

Jesus!
I had a failed valley replaced – so stripping back either side, removal of the old lead, supply and fit new lead, replace tiles and point.
£850 quid (I supplied the scaffolding as he also rebuilt the top 5 rows of bricks on the chimney while he was up there).

The job done may well be good, but its not the job he said he needed to do, so they should have explained what they were doing differently and why.

This.

The tradie needs to fully list the actual work done and bill you for that as opposed to the original quote, otherwise he can do one via the small claims court.

His original quote was extortionate.

Yeah it possibly was, but with the work he described (needing two people for two days) in an emergency situation, I thought it was almost justifiable.

Tough one.

Honestly if it was me id pay. Ive had this a number of times in the past and as work has gone on / they’ve seen how gullible i am and added lots accordingly.

Good trades are hard to find. Ive used checkatrade a lot and every time ive had people turn up. The last lot appeared to have robbed my house!

Any warranty isnt worth the paper its written on. if it leaks next week youll never hear from them again.

How do people actually find decent tradesmen??

We need our garage rebuilt as the brickwork is collapsing and roof leaking, it’s a big job I think. We’ve asked around, but no-one knows of anyone. I’ve done a bit of DIY stuff in the past, or had small jobs done by trades, but nothing this big.

Is checkatrade worthwhile??

I wouldn’t go near checkatrade.  Bascially I just spoke to everyone I knew locally, parents at school / clubs / teachers / work people, everyone.  Got a bunch of numbers and then started calling round and try to get them to turn up,

Guy I used for our build was a mate of my boss, so I had a connection there.  He then introduced me to a bunch of the trades he used, who all did a quality job.  The real problem was getting them to show up.  I’ve been trying to get the brick layer back to take a look at my patio job for 2 months now….I’m now at the point of doing it myself

The good ones don’t even advertise

Interestingly one of the extortionate quotes I got for the extension, turns out the builder I used often subs for him, so bascially I would have got the same guys doing the work just with a massive % dolloped on top for the “project management” which according to the guy I got involves him being left to get on with it.

Good luck sorting your roof out OP

For reference, a few years ago I had a roofer round.to fix a leak around an old chimney. He reckoned the flashing was leaking but there was also some broken tiles in the vicinity.
He also reckoned the large build-up of moss needed removing as it retained moisture and could lead to problems.
Him and a colleague worked for 2 days, cleaning the entire side of the roof free from moss and then fixed the leak around the flashing, replaced the broken tiles and while doing that found a broken batten underneath and some torn felt which he also fixed.

That was £750. Just found the WhatsApp photos he sent me of the work before, during and after and it was May 2021 so 3 years.ago.

We’ve asked around, but no-one knows of anyone.

ask harder!!

I wouldn’t go near checkatrade.

very much this. All the cowboys have signed up for it, Check-a-trade say they vet everyone, but they don’t, they’re just happy to take the money.

Our local authority outsourced their “trusted trader” scheme to Check-a-trade, much to the chagrin/embarrassment of the folk actually working for Trading Standards!

How do people actually find decent tradesmen??

Be a bit cheeky – see who’s having work done around you and ask the home owners if they are happy with the builder and if they’ve used them in the past.

Obvs don’t go round while the builders are there and you may want to pop a note through their door before hand with your contact details and a bit of an explanation.

in my experience some roofers are some of the dodgiest trades around.

You’ll get good and bad ones in any profession.  Just with roofers it’s more difficult to inspect the work afterwards.  The last one I had out did a good job, after I produced a dSLR with a long zoom lens to look at the roof before he started. 😁

I had one one time, they’d been up on the roof for a recce then called me back to the door, “look at this.”  They pointed to some broken tiles in the garden that had “fallen off” whilst they were up there.  I did look at them.  They were grey bathroom tiles.

I wouldn’t go near checkatrade.

Just for balance, I had an excellent builder recently via checkatrade. Maybe I was lucky.

Be a bit cheeky – see who’s having work done around you and ask the home owners if they are happy with the builder and if they’ve used them in the past.

This is the way.

My son in law is a project manager on a lot of high end office refurbs in London. He’s happy to bollock any trades for bad work, lack of PPE, etc.

Except scaffolders and roofers.

not a conversation I’m envious of, but ultimately i think you need to get across:

• He said he wouldn’t bodge it
• he gave you a plan, and a price
• he bodged it.

Horrible getting into confrontation with people as a middle class with soft hands, but they know that and rely on it

Ultimately, you hold the high ground, if he wants to get paid.  He hasn’t done the work he described. He can go back up there and do it as agreed or you pay for what he has done. I don’t see him being able to argue it any other way if it got all legal and proper.

Get a written scope next time. [edit]. TBH many trades will give a written scope without being asked. It saves a lot of heartache and admin for them in the future.

This is one we received. Very little wiggle room for either party, which is good.

Further to our recent visit we are pleased to submit the following quotation for the above property:
To supply, erect, and dismantle all access scaffolding to both valley sides to store roofing materials set
aside earlier for the full length of the job no extra charges will apply
To strip out both sides of valley to set tiles aside for re-use keeping them in order, any breakages will be
replaced like for like
To supply and fit all 200x25mm treated timber to form valley boards to bottom where necessary ready to
support lead linings to both sides this includes all fixings, labour of fitment
To supply and fit breather membrane to existing roof elevations as per BS 5534:2014 with 10mm
galvanised staples and 20mm galvanised clouts where necessary
To supply and fit all 25x50mm John Brash Red batten where required to form new rotten battens to valley,
to be fixed to rafters with 63mm ring shank nails
To fit reclaimed Natural slates this includes all 38mm copper clout nails, 100mm stainless steel hooks
where necessary any broken slates to be replaced with new
To supply and dress all code 4 450mm lead to form all valley linings to new valley board to valley elevation
this includes all copper clout nails, lead sealant, and two coats of patination oil to be applied
To re-slate valleys back in order this includes all fixings listed above
To take off all loose ridge tiles, to re-bed with Remix tile bedding mortar, to point to a smooth finish
To clear all gutters and downpipes to rear elevations, to clean site and leave as found
To clear all rubbish from site including rubbish from alleyway this will include all skip hire charges.
Please note this quote includes all scaffolding, labour, rubbish removal, transportation of materials and
fuel costs.
Total for materials and labour both plots : £1383.09 + VAT

Remind me not to employ Big Johns son…..

Olly has it I think, good luck

The biggest question nobodies asked is how big is he, and does he ‘mates’ 🤣

I’d let my wife deal with him. She deals in big contracts at work all the time so has no qualms in not paying if things aren’t done.

I’d offer a reasonable amount for the work done. If you don’t know what that is, try and get another quote.

In terms of finding good trades we use the street Whatsapp and ask neighbours. Best recommendation is from someone who’s had work done recently. Helps that it is a terrace street too so we know a fair price as the houses are identical.

Do you have a hammer?

Do you have frozen sauages?

Does he have a lawn?

You know what to do.

Invite him round to discuss it with you

Insist he removes his shoes at the door

Make sure you have a full bladder

You know what to do

While you’re beating yourself up for getting into this situation it might be a consolation to hear in a moment of weakness and goodwill to all men I said yes to the van load of guys in the dodgy white van who looked like they’d just escaped from prison when they knocked and asked if they wanted me to look at our dodgy gutter (plastic end just needed pushing on).

I knew we needed the mossy tiles doing, and they said they’d give me a quote.

“Normally we’ll do it for £600 but for you it’s £500”

Gave me a load of waffle about the amazing job they’d do, how they’d be back tomorrow to finish off, clean the downpipes out and the conservatory gutter, etc etc

You can probably guess how that went

Well that wasn’t too bad – he maintained he did a good job, I maintained he didn’t do the work he quoted for. He agreed to £1,200 and I’ve paid him. I know it’s still expensive, but it’s certainly better than it was.

Now to football and beer…